Why I kneel to recieve

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zab said:
We should all take our cues from the pope. From what I have been reading on the internet there seems to be a growing number of pastors and bishops who are doing just that. As far as your bishop is concerned, in the link to the video that you provided your bishop said that several Prie dieu were made available for people to kneel… For the past two years, my pastor has been having the First Communicants to receive their First Holy Communion on the tongue while kneeling at a Prie Dieu. He also began having Latin Mass twice a month and at that time several prie dieu are brought up front. But for the most part, with Mass in the OF, the posture is to stand while receiving Communion. I know that my pastor has been very seriously trying to find a way to reinstall a Communion rail back into our Church. I have read posts on this forum about church’s that have never removed their Communion rails and that they are still being used. It would not surprise me if one day in the future Communion rails would once again be put in all or most of the churches. But in the mean time, the norm of posture for receiving Communion is standing. And as far as judging others, it goes both ways. Those who follow the norm and do as their bishops ask them to do should not be considered any less reverent, less humble, less faithful than those who kneel.
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ZDHayden: could you please cite the following quote you posted?
Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion
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It doesn’t bear much authority as a quote if it isn’t cited. I am also curious of the context. For instance Redemptionis Sacramentum 91 states that it is not for the minister of communion to deny communion simply based on kneeling, however just because it forbids a public rebuke doesn’t mean it is permitting the practice.

TheMc: To your bullet points in order…
  • The GIRM saying “it’s better of you stand”, to the point of almost prohibiting kneeling
    I can’t say that is my reading of it, but I’d be interested in how you gather this.
  • The pope saying (and backing up words with actions) “it’s better if you kneel”
    The Pope is the Patriarch of the West and the Bishop of Rome. He can pretty much do whatever he likes in the liturgy short of invalidating a sacrament, or doing away with the essential elements of the mass. Also kneeling (as I think we can agree) is the norm in the Roman Church. So it would make sense that the Bishop of Rome would hold this position.
  • The most US bishops saying “it’s better if you stand”
    Hence the current position of the USCCB, which the governing body on this particular issue.
  • Some US bishops (like mine) saying “kneeling is better”
    And they are overruled by the national bishops’ conference (namely the USCCB). Now you might be able to make a case that the bishop is the chief liturgist of his own diocese and in a very pre-Trent way can therefore make the changes he wants to the liturgy. However most of the documents I’ve read from Rome seem to either ignore or contradict such authority.
  • Redemptionis Sacramentum saying “Listen to your bishops…but you can still kneel if you want”
    If you are referring RS 90-91, I think you are taking some liberty in the paraphrasing. What RS 90 says is that kneeling and standing are the two options, and your bishops’ conference will decide which one you should do. Paragraph 91 does not allow kneeling in places where standing is the norm anymore than it allows standing where kneeling is the norm. It simply states that the Communion Rite is not the proper time to decide to excommunicate someone (by literally denying them communion). If you are referring to another part of the document, please let me know.
  • The CDWDS saying “it’s not disobedient or illicit to kneel. Ever.”
    This again, does not sound like a direct quote. Could you please cite this?
  • And the list goes on
 
ZDHayden said:
If I may, NewEnglandPries, a “norm” does not indicate a requirement in everyday usage, correct? You will have to forgive me, a lot of terminology in law I am not familiar with.
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No one said it was a requirement, correct.
strikes me as interesting in that it states that those who kneel are NOT disobedient, because, if someone were disobedient, then there would have to be an obligation to correct said disobedience. Since there is a prohibition against correcting those who kneel, does it not follow that it is not disobedience?
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No one is saying that kneelers are disobedient.
I am simply curious. The Vatican seems in support of kneeling on the whole, but if the sole reason to be uniform is a sign of unity (a poor reason ultimately from a philosophical standpoint),
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The Vatican supports a range of liturgically acceptable options. However, uniformity of sign is not a poor reason since the Mass is the public worship of the Church as the one Body of Christ. Mass is not an event that people show up to individually and do their own thing at.

It really is amazing that some will claim we should kneel “because Rome prefers it” but when its pointed out that Rome prefers unity of action as well then the same individuals reply that its not mandated so it doesn’t matter 🤷
How will we respond to seeing Him in Heaven (if we get there)? Our practice is here at Mass.
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We need to be careful about this issue. The Eastern Catholic Churches rarely kneel. Longer periods of kneeling and genuflection are Western/Latin litrugical acts. And given that the Eastern Churches’ practices can usually claim to be more ancient in tradition we should not claim some kind of superiority for kneeling.

Kneeling or standing are traditional and ancient liturgical acts that are equally acceptable overall. The issue is what should we as Latin/Roman Rite’ers being doing in accordance with our non-dogmatic traditions.
 
TheMc said:
Really? Do you guys in Canada kneel at all?
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Love_Divine said:
Yeah for a bit after returning to our pews from communion, unless the parish doesn’t have kneelers. (I’ve been to a brand new parish with comfy pews and no kneelers and no one knelt after communion. I tried, but the church was designed with a significant downward slope to the sanctuary, and I kept falling forward whenever I closed my eyes)
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Yes, we do kneel in Canada, and not just for awhile after receiving Communion! I have no idea in which part of the country Love Divine lives but in the 4 dioceses that I am very familiar with, we kneel from after the Sanctus until after the Great Amen and then after the Agnus Dei right through Communion until the priest is seated, I do know that there are some dioceses that do it differently according to what their bishops have regulated.
We also have Adoration, Benediction, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy Chaplets, praying the Rosary as groups in the church, novenas, Lenten Missions, parish retreats and all the other traditional practices. Canada is not the liturgical “wasteland” that some seem to say it is.
 
TheMc said:
When you enter a church, what do you do? Kneel (briefly, normally called a genuflection).

During the consecration, when the Lord comes into the church, what are you doing? Kneeling.

When the priest holds up the host and says: "Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sins of the world…", We are kneeling.

When we humbly respond “Lord, I am not worthy…”, We are kneeling.

When you are in adoration, what (ideally) do you do, at least part of the time? Kneel.

And just for kicks, what does the priest do during most of benediction and exposition? Yep. He Kneels.

It’s pretty clear that in the Roman Rite, kneeling when in the presence of the Eucharist is the best thing to do, particular when it’s out of the tabernacle.

But, when he comes into you at holy communion, what do you do? Do you stand? Doesn’t this seem like a little bit of a disconnect to kneel when he comes into the church, and kneel when you are in his presence, kneel when you worship during benediction and Mass, but stand when you receive him? There is much wisdom in the ways of old. The church didn’t do these things for no reason.

Does anyone else see this disconnect? Infirmity aside, I can’t think of a good reason why you would kneel, when you put everything in perspective.

Comments.
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when I go to the FSSP parish, I kneel, like everyone… at Novus Ordo, I would like to kneel, but I dont know how to do that without drawing attention to myself 😦 I so wish that the altar rails would be put back in. The Council never even said that they should be taken out.
 
Found it originally quoted by TheMc. Thanks. I’m going to read it in full.
 
On the Good Friday OF service I attended, people received communion both standing and kneeling. There were kneelers on the left and whoever wanted to receive kneeling simply went to the ministers who were on the left. Those who wanted to stand went on the other line.

I think that is a good compromise.
 
Frosty said:
Yes, we do kneel in Canada, and not just for awhile after receiving Communion! I have no idea in which part of the country Love Divine lives but in the 4 dioceses that I am very familiar with, we kneel from after the Sanctus until after the Great Amen and then after the Agnus Dei right through Communion until the priest is seated, I do know that there are some dioceses that do it differently according to what their bishops have regulated.
We also have Adoration, Benediction, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy Chaplets, praying the Rosary as groups in the church, novenas, Lenten Missions, parish retreats and all the other traditional practices. Canada is not the liturgical “wasteland” that some seem to say it is.
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I’ve attended Mass in Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC, and Southern Ontario, and not once have I knelt other than after Communion (with exception to the TLM I attended in Calgary, but that goes without saying.).
 
ZDHayden said:
I disagree with your analogy. What we have here is not my mother asking me to do something but saying that it is not obligatory (something that, in my case at least, would be a contradiction, has been and will be until the day one of us dies) but rather my mother saying “You have three choices: A, B, and C. It would be nice of you to do A, but you can do B or C as well, and you have my support.”
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I don’t feel like looking it up, but as I recall, the G.I.R.M. does not mention “choice” of postures. It says that the norm is standing. If a bishop or a pastor, makes a prie dieu available, then he is giving the communicants a choice of posture. Otherwise, if there is no prie dieu or Communion rail, or pew designated for people to receive while kneeling, then there is no choice given and the norm is to stand. This is my understanding.
 
zab said:
I don’t feel like looking it up, but as I recall, the G.I.R.M. does not mention “choice” of postures. It says that the norm is standing. If a bishop or a pastor, makes a prie dieu available, then he is giving the communicants a choice of posture. Otherwise, if there is no prie dieu or Communion rail, or pew designated for people to receive while kneeling, then there is no choice given and the norm is to stand. This is my understanding.
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  1. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
 
TheMc said:
  1. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
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That says to me that people are expected to receive standing. If, for whatever reason, they choose to kneel, the Minister of Holy Communion is not to make a big stink about it right there in the line, but to make sure the person receives proper instruction on why standing is what we do. It doesn’t say anything about this happening week after week, but it seems that it is not envisioned that the same person would have to be counseled more than once.

Personally, I’d rather receive kneeling, but someone further up the thread put it very well for me that obedience is the most important thing here.
 
TheMc said:
  1. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
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That’s the one. Thanks for looking it up.
 
Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.
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Yes, and thank you for helping me find the citiation. I went and read the whole letter, and a couple other of similar letters from the CDWDS along a similar vein while I was at it. I don’t think these letters are permitting or excusing the act of kneeling. They all seem to regard the enforcement of a norm which the CDWDS themselves had to approve. In all the letters I have read, as well as in Redemptionis Sacramentum they are simply clarifying how kneeling should be dealt with in the moment. All of the letters (about three including the one you cited) I have read and Redemptionis Sacramentum stress that the communion should not be denied, nor someone be called disobedient because they are kneeling for communion.

I think there are two plausible reasons for this position, with a third being a combination of the two. First, it’s not very pastoral to call someone disobedient or deny them communion simply because they approach with the wrong posture. After all they could simply be from a place where kneeling is the norm and may be ignorant of the local custom. At better time would be after mass. The second option would be that the CDWDS sees the matter of disobedience in gesture as rather venial, and therefore not worthy of such a sanction as denial of communion. The third would be some combination of the first two. However I see no evidence that the CDWDS is condoning one posture over a normative posture which is legislated by a national conference and which the CDWDS has itself approved.

I think it might be helpful to contrast the position with the communion in the hand/mouth situation. Here the CDWDS states that communion on the tongue is the universal norm, but that bishops’ conference may allow communion in the hand. They are very clear however that communion on the tongue is always acceptable. They make no such clarification in regards to kneeling, and I think this distinction is important.
 
baltobetsy said:
That says to me that people are expected to receive standing. If, for whatever reason, they choose to kneel, the Minister of Holy Communion is not to make a big stink about it right there in the line, but to make sure the person receives proper instruction on why standing is what we do. It doesn’t say anything about this happening week after week, but it seems that it is not envisioned that the same person would have to be counseled more than once.

Personally, I’d rather receive kneeling, but someone further up the thread put it very well for me that obedience is the most important thing here.
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It makes sense, and that’s how I read it, but then there’s the CDWDS letter, which says there’s nothing wrong with kneeling, as well as the holy father’s proposal to the world to bring back the kneeler.

Prot. n. 47/03/L:

Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.

How confusing this all is.
 
TheMc said:
It makes sense, and that’s how I read it, but then there’s the CDWDS letter, which says there’s nothing wrong with kneeling, as well as the holy father’s proposal to the world to bring back the kneeler.

Prot. n. 47/03/L:

Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.

How confusing this all is.
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There is nothing wrong with eating meat on Friday, either, in and of itself, but for many years that was forbidden. If one chose to ignore that ruling, the sin was in the disobedience, not the eating of the meat.
 
Frosty said:
Yes, we do kneel in Canada, and not just for awhile after receiving Communion! I have no idea in which part of the country Love Divine lives but in the 4 dioceses that I am very familiar with, we kneel from after the Sanctus until after the Great Amen and then after the Agnus Dei right through Communion until the priest is seated, I do know that there are some dioceses that do it differently according to what their bishops have regulated.
We also have Adoration, Benediction, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy Chaplets, praying the Rosary as groups in the church, novenas, Lenten Missions, parish retreats and all the other traditional practices. Canada is not the liturgical “wasteland” that some seem to say it is.
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I’m in Canada (southern Ontario) and we kneel at those times at my church too! I’ve also been to a couple of other churches…There’s a lot more kneeling than just after communion. When I first read Love Divine’s post I wondered if there was some sort of change the churches around here are not aware of. 🤷

But I receive communion standing… I don’t think I’ve seen anyone kneel during communion, but then again it’s not like I’m checking to see who’s standing and who’s kneeling… so I don’t know 🙂
 
Love_Divine said:
I’ve attended Mass in Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC, and Southern Ontario, and not once have I knelt other than after Communion (with exception to the TLM I attended in Calgary, but that goes without saying.).
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Well, I’ve lived in Southern Ontario for pretty much most of the last 43 years since I graduated from university and the posture has always been what I described in my first post. If you attended a church here where the congregation knelt only after Communion then you found one that does not follow the norm laid out by the bishop of that diocese. In my diocese there are currently131 parishes and missions. Over the years I’ve attended Mass in about 80% of them and they all follow the same norms.
 
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