Why I reject fatima

[Mystical_Seeker]

Saying that the Church can’t err doesn’t have to mean infallibility. It could mean this:

When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them.

newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm

My only purpose in this thread is to rebut any type of danger or stating that Fatima is somehow false. We don’t have to believe in Fatima but because is Church approved we have no right to morally criticize it.

That sounds fair. I won’t say it’s “objectively false,” but that its truth does not come across as evident or compelling for me, nor does it seem useful.

Yes I have my personal opinions about why it doesn’t make sense, and if it gets to that detail level I don’t mind voicing them. But I do not claim to “know” what did or didn’t happen, except what the Church says and apparently it says I’m not in danger of going to hell, based on whether I do or don’t believe it.

That means I still get to reject it. I just don’t get to tell you or others that they are logically flawed for believing it (even if I may personally think so) as long as they are in Communion with the Church.

 

[georget]

That sounds fair. I won’t say it’s “objectively false,” but that its truth does not come across as evident or compelling for me, nor does it seem useful.

Yes I have my personal opinions about why it doesn’t make sense, and if it gets to that detail level I don’t mind voicing them. But I do not claim to “know” what did or didn’t happen, except what the Church says and apparently it says I’m not in danger of going to hell, based on whether I do or don’t believe it.

That means I still get to reject it. I just don’t get to tell you or others that they are logically flawed for believing it (even if I may personally think so) as long as they are in Communion with the Church.

If I didn’t believe the apparitions were indeed true, and I was conversing with someone who did believe they were true, I would say God bless you and walk away, I know there are those who would lose hope if their beliefs were challenged, it’s sad but true, and I wouldn’t want to sow doubts in their souls, it would bother my conscience enormously. It is true you have the right to say what you think, but it doesn’t mean you have to. Humility.
God bless you
George

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Of course it is. If you can’t ‘beat’ it, ignore it, according to some. It’s uncomfortable, it’s shaming, it’s difficult. Hell SHOULD be! The (self!!) destruction of the world should be too much for us to handle…so much that we do everything we can to avoid it happening.

I hear you, but I have a different way to paint it. I know that I could die with any breath I take. I just choose not to dwell on that very often. I don’t need to have a sign “Tempus Fugit Memento Mori” in front of my face all the time to remember I am mortal. I don’t post signs in my kitchen that say, “if you kids talk back to me today I have the right to take away your phones and make you stay in your room.”

I just hate the idea that threats are required to exact good behavior from children. I think they are taught this quid-pro-quo mentality, because in certain “uncivilized” tribes like the Nukak people in the rain forest, they don’t have this problem with individuality and ego getting in the way of behaving in a way that’s mutually acceptable to both individual and the group. I think children are taught that they have to “expect something” rather than just that “my dad wants me to do it so I do it.”

IOW bribes and threats as motivation, are entirely overdone and IMO the mentality of them is exactly contrary to the Gospel message of unconditional love with nothing expected in return.

If I am good because I’m afraid I’ll go to hell, that is NOT the same as being good because I recognize and experience the fact that love is a great way to live in unity and serenity. So if I “obey God” because I fear hell, or am desirous of heaven, then IMO is it back to quid pro quo and it is not acting out of unconditional love, “unconditional” in that it gains nothing in particular in return.

If using ‘truth’ to convince others into doing the right thing, for THEMSELVES, isn’t right, I don’t know what is. Don’t we all want truth? I believe God guards us from the truths that are too difficult for us to handle or know, but if this has been revealed as truth, then we are to know it.

As for Mary showing children things that would haunt them for life, beyond their capabilities…I don’t believe it. They were given special Graces from God (through Mary) to handle these things. Let’s not forget…God already knows how this story ends. Mary and God didn’t torture or terrify the children.

Sure, that’s fine. Plus I think we are finding out as a society that children are capable of understanding much more social content than we tend to give them credit for. My children know of extremes of both excellence and horrible I never could have dreamed at that age, and it seems to give them range, which is good.

So knowing the truth, yes. But focusing on the punishment and doing this and that and the other busy task to avoid punishment or work formulas? Sorry those devotions are for others not me. I love math and formulas, but I have my own set when it comes to my internal feelings and spiritual sense of Divine Union.

A lot of time seems to be spent (not just by Catholics, or even Christians) judging who is ‘anything’ enough. Races/religions/economic standing/beautiful/skinny/smart…we’re all told daily that we aren’t ‘something’ enough. Why? Because for many people, they can’t feel important (or build themselves up) without standing on others. That is true in every walk of life, sadly. It’s not true of everyone, but it’s true of enough people that even when people are just sharing their own experiences, their love for something may come across as bragging or judging.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

What do you think, MS, about researching more on why someone would be resistant so much to Fatima? Sometimes, the more drawn I am to a truth or action on the inside, the harsher the draw away from it on the outside. Thankfully, the inside matters more; I don’t always win that battle though (well, if I let Him, God wins it for me). Just 2 days ago, I felt every reason and feeling to avoid doing things that evening that I knew would be good for me (and perhaps others) spiritually. I even began to feel ‘sick’ in a weird way. That evening at the special Mass I attended, I received such gifts and graces!! I did it, in part, because I just gave it to God. I let Him handle it for me. What a great Father we have!

I totally get that, about things changing. To me that’s a bit like what I call being “led by the Spirit.” The other day I went, unusually, to Monday morning Mass and lit a candle by St. Jude before Mass with a prayer of thanks for previous prayers answered, and then after Mass one on either side of the Sacred Heart. I don’t know why I do these things; I just do them. That’s why I should probably lighten up a little on others and let them do what they will – but my ego just gets riled when they look down on me because I’m not as “whatever” as they are about “whatever” they are that way about.

But at this point, I’m just plain not interested. I’m no more interested in the story of Fatima, than in the story of some celebrity’s private life. Interesting to me, useful to some, but I am fine as I am, at least as far as the Lord allows me to think. Hee hee.

Perhaps, believe in Fatima for a few weeks. Maybe for Lent. Or if that is too much, just hand it off to Mary, and ask her to take care of your belief. Then drop it. Make an appointment with yourself in 6 weeks (and not sooner) to revisit the issue at hand. Perhaps ask our sweet blessed Mother to show you your belief or disbelief in Fatima, or where your energies should be focused. Don’t dwell on it; just hand it over. Or do the opposite, and read every legit thing that you can. For some, information overload is a good thing.

Thank you for the idea, but I don’t feel any desire for this. My wife injects anything regarding Fatima that might be relevant to any particular conversation, so I just let her be the “expert” and I go on doing the things I do.

You remind me though of the Lent where I tried reading the Bible as books rather than as references to look up, starting with John and promised myself at least a chapter a day. Ended up I couldn’t stop at fewer than several, because was so exciting to see it presented that way. So I can get that a little discipline can trigger a desire for greater devotion. But I am so completely satisfied and feel such close union with the prayer of Jesus and frankly the Father at this point, I just don’t have any “calling” to read about Fatima, any more than having a second dessert when I’m already plenty full. So to me it would just be extra – totally gratuitous and no particular “craving” calling me that way. But I’m OK with that. I just want others to know they can be OK with that too, and don’t have to listen to others say they are deficient. I think we’ve agreed on that now.

But keep your heart open no matter what you decide. You don’t have to decide today, tomorrow or any time. It will happen in time, when/if it’s supposed to happen. I have had some amazing personal private revelations in my life, that I know when I shared with others, they didn’t believe me, or doubted me. That’s fine. I know it happened, and it was intended for me (and for others, when I was pushed to share it).

Peace and joy,

Absolutely! Out-predicting the Holy Spirit is great sport, but not if “accuracy” counts.

Yes, I acknowledge that I can completely turn around on things. Like once I asked my wife why she kneels before a stone statue of Mary and prays there. She said it gave her a sense of connection. I was like, oh. So I tried it, and saw at times she seemed to move a bit or even wink a bit; I came up with a reason that just because of my own movements, and the parallax between her and the pattern on the wall behind, my very own breathing movements could create a sense that she was “alive” and I could see how my mind could make the same connection my wife did. It just made more sense to me when I had a “science” version of the story to help me understand the sensory (name removed by moderator)uts and how they go into this illusion of “connection.” I actually visit Mary’s statue from time to time; we have a pretty good relationship now – maybe I’ll talk to her about this Fatima thing and ask if it’s OK with her, if I delegate her Fatima stuff to others while I do things that seem more compelling to my own prayer life.

MS

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

If I didn’t believe the apparitions were indeed true, and I was conversing with someone who did believe they were true, I would say God bless you and walk away, I know there are those who would lose hope if their beliefs were challenged, it’s sad but true, and I wouldn’t want to sow doubts in their souls, it would bother my conscience enormously. It is true you have the right to say what you think, but it doesn’t mean you have to. Humility.
God bless you
George

I understand, and you make a good point. I could get carried away by my ego or sense of “revenge” even, toward people who used to intimidate me and some of my friends, and create cognitive dissonance between doing what I feel is right and that I’m personally called to do, versus what I think others expect me to act like. Jesus certainly didn’t hang around people who acted all religious very often, and when He did it didn’t always go well.

Maybe I feel like I have to “even the score” a bit. Like I’ve seen so many Catholics including ones I care about and even some I counsel (for their feelings of “Catholic inadequacy”) be at the receiving end of these “well doesn’t everybody think like I do and want to do the same things I do” with just enough condescending tone, that I’m sensitive.

I tend to hang around with people who feel hurt, rejected, put down, outcast – and my own mental illness (and once even getting banned from parish property by my own pastor because he didn’t like my accurate observations on problems within the parish council) helped me understand “leper” stories – so maybe I get kind of harsh, and maybe that’s not right. But on the other hand, some of these people have no idea what they are doing or how they come across or how they effect people, so I’m also not ready to “give up the fight” because frankly I feel like Jesus telling certain “more religious than you” people to quit telling my friends they are somehow sub-par.

I’m saying this to “explain” myself, not to “excuse” myself. You can still think I’m wrong; I’d just prefer if it’s because we disagree rather than we misunderstand each other’s assertions or intentions. It would be nice if I could convey why I feel this way and then maybe it makes more sense and you can even help join me in improving Catholic unity – that I feel is compromised by certain attitudes – and now that includes my own attitude as you have pointed out.

Peace.
MS

 

[Elena321]

Saying that the Church can’t err doesn’t have to mean infallibility. It could mean this:

When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them.

newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm

My only purpose in this thread is to rebut any type of danger or stating that Fatima is somehow false. We don’t have to believe in Fatima but because is Church approved we have no right to morally criticize it.

Hi,
Is having approval at a Bishop local level somehow “less worthy” or same as if approval at Vatican level?
Just wondering because Barnabas Nwoye is approved by local Archdiocese but he claims that the antichrist is in the world today

 

[Elena321]

Also,I hear people talk about how different Catholics have different spiritual paths etc which can sound beautiful,however at the same time I can’t understand this because shouldn’t Catholics be unified in what their and their Churches view on Hell is?
For example,if one Catholic says they don’t think hell is a literal burning fire but then another Catholic says it is because Mary of Fatima showed it is…what then?

 

[Memaw]

I hear you, but I have a different way to paint it. I know that I could die with any breath I take. I just choose not to dwell on that very often. I don’t need to have a sign “Tempus Fugit Memento Mori” in front of my face all the time to remember I am mortal. I don’t post signs in my kitchen that say, “if you kids talk back to me today I have the right to take away your phones and make you stay in your room.”

I just hate the idea that threats are required to exact good behavior from children. I think they are taught this quid-pro-quo mentality, because in certain “uncivilized” tribes like the Nukak people in the rain forest, they don’t have this problem with individuality and ego getting in the way of behaving in a way that’s mutually acceptable to both individual and the group. I think children are taught that they have to “expect something” rather than just that “my dad wants me to do it so I do it.”

IOW bribes and threats as motivation, are entirely overdone and IMO the mentality of them is exactly contrary to the Gospel message of unconditional love with nothing expected in return.

If I am good because I’m afraid I’ll go to hell, that is NOT the same as being good because I recognize and experience the fact that love is a great way to live in unity and serenity. So if I “obey God” because I fear hell, or am desirous of heaven, then IMO is it back to quid pro quo and it is not acting out of unconditional love, “unconditional” in that it gains nothing in particular in return.

Sure, that’s fine. Plus I think we are finding out as a society that children are capable of understanding much more social content than we tend to give them credit for. My children know of extremes of both excellence and horrible I never could have dreamed at that age, and it seems to give them range, which is good.

So knowing the truth, yes. But focusing on the punishment and doing this and that and the other busy task to avoid punishment or work formulas? Sorry those devotions are for others not me. I love math and formulas, but I have my own set when it comes to my internal feelings and spiritual sense of Divine Union.

Those were not threats, they were warnings. There is a difference. If we don’t act on those warnings, we will suffer the consequences. Russia has since spread her errors through out the world as we were warned she would do !!! We should be thankful Our God cares enough to warn us of danger and act on HIS TRUTHS. If I was walking down a dark path and someone warned me of a deep cliff ahead, I would be wise to listen instead of going on my merry way ignoring that warning.
Truth is NOT up to us, we are fooling ourselves if we think we are smarter than GOD and can make up our own mind what is true and what isn’t, what is best for us and what we need to know to stay close to Him. I am thankful HE sent His Mother to help us and through HIS Church told us what is worthy of Belief. A little humility goes a long way. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Path_Finder]

Hi,
Is having approval at a Bishop local level somehow “less worthy” or same as if approval at Vatican level?
Just wondering because Barnabas Nwoye is approved by local Archdiocese but he claims that the antichrist is in the world today

From reading on the internet, it sounds like the Vatican “definitively passes a judgment of finality regarding an alleged revelation” (Pope Leo X - 5th Council of Lateran 1513.

 

[Path_Finder]

Those were not threats, they were warnings. There is a difference. If we don’t act on those warnings, we will suffer the consequences. Russia has since spread her errors through out the world as we were warned she would do !!! We should be thankful Our God cares enough to warn us of danger and act on HIS TRUTHS. If I was walking down a dark path and someone warned me of a deep cliff ahead, I would be wise to listen instead of going on my merry way ignoring that warning.
Truth is NOT up to us, we are fooling ourselves if we think we are smarter than GOD and can make up our own mind what is true and what isn’t, what is best for us and what we need to know to stay close to Him. I am thankful HE sent His Mother to help us and through HIS Church told us what is worthy of Belief. A little humility goes a long way. God Bless, Memaw

Very good reasoning here. Thanks for pointing this out to everyone here.

 

[georget]

I understand, and you make a good point. I could get carried away by my ego or sense of “revenge” even, toward people who used to intimidate me and some of my friends, and create cognitive dissonance between doing what I feel is right and that I’m personally called to do, versus what I think others expect me to act like. Jesus certainly didn’t hang around people who acted all religious very often, and when He did it didn’t always go well.

Maybe I feel like I have to “even the score” a bit. Like I’ve seen so many Catholics including ones I care about and even some I counsel (for their feelings of “Catholic inadequacy”) be at the receiving end of these “well doesn’t everybody think like I do and want to do the same things I do” with just enough condescending tone, that I’m sensitive.

I tend to hang around with people who feel hurt, rejected, put down, outcast – and my own mental illness (and once even getting banned from parish property by my own pastor because he didn’t like my accurate observations on problems within the parish council) helped me understand “leper” stories – so maybe I get kind of harsh, and maybe that’s not right. But on the other hand, some of these people have no idea what they are doing or how they come across or how they effect people, so I’m also not ready to “give up the fight” because frankly I feel like Jesus telling certain “more religious than you” people to quit telling my friends they are somehow sub-par.

I’m saying this to “explain” myself, not to “excuse” myself. You can still think I’m wrong; I’d just prefer if it’s because we disagree rather than we misunderstand each other’s assertions or intentions. It would be nice if I could convey why I feel this way and then maybe it makes more sense and you can even help join me in improving Catholic unity – that I feel is compromised by certain attitudes – and now that includes my own attitude as you have pointed out.

Peace.
MS

It’s not that I think your wrong, I’m kind of opinionated myself, it’s just I’ve found it dangerous “biblically” for me to decide what are the wishes of the Holy Spirit, after all God is God and he can do whatever he thinks best to draw his children back home to him, including using Blessed Virgin for those who need that. I will confess I do believe in Fatima, I’ve been to Lourdes, went there as a skeptic, came home a real believer, so, I use to have trouble with apparitions but now I advise caution. God’s will be done.
May God’s peace be with you

 

[Path_Finder]

Saying that the Church can’t err doesn’t have to mean infallibility. It could mean this:

When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them.

newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm

My only purpose in this thread is to rebut any type of danger or stating that Fatima is somehow false. We don’t have to believe in Fatima but because is Church approved we have no right to morally criticize it.

Thank you very much. I thought my understanding was something like this.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Those were not threats, they were warnings. There is a difference. If we don’t act on those warnings, we will suffer the consequences. Russia has since spread her errors through out the world as we were warned she would do !!! We should be thankful Our God cares enough to warn us of danger and act on HIS TRUTHS. If I was walking down a dark path and someone warned me of a deep cliff ahead, I would be wise to listen instead of going on my merry way ignoring that warning.
Truth is NOT up to us, we are fooling ourselves if we think we are smarter than GOD and can make up our own mind what is true and what isn’t, what is best for us and what we need to know to stay close to Him. I am thankful HE sent His Mother to help us and through HIS Church told us what is worthy of Belief. A little humility goes a long way. God Bless, Memaw

That makes sense to me. Thank you for your thoughtful and kind reply.

It’s not that I think your wrong, I’m kind of opinionated myself, it’s just I’ve found it dangerous “biblically” for me to decide what are the wishes of the Holy Spirit, after all God is God and he can do whatever he thinks best to draw his children back home to him, including using Blessed Virgin for those who need that. I will confess I do believe in Fatima, I’ve been to Lourdes, went there as a skeptic, came home a real believer, so, I use to have trouble with apparitions but now I advise caution. God’s will be done.
May God’s peace be with you

Yes. But as long as I’m not believing what you say, just consider Jesus’s “love the enemy” because in this case, we are not truly intended to harm each other, but we are offering points of view interactively with opposition. As long as we keep love in it, and especially me if I cool down my ‘tude a bit, then we can be each others’ greatest asset. If I come to believe, fine. If not, we understand each other and learn to be the different parts of the body, which get along but are not all clones.

We are unified in Christ, but not in every devotion. Some people are altar servers, others lectors, others church cleaners. Some pray Rosaries; others do silent prayer and adoration with or without any structure. There are hundreds of times as many Catholic treasures as one could ever hope to read/view/experience. So we all are working for Christ which means we love each other. We still have our specialities; the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker, as it were.

MS

 

[Techno2000]

That makes sense to me. Thank you for your thoughtful and kind reply.

Yes. But as long as I’m not believing what you say, just consider Jesus’s “love the enemy” because in this case, we are not truly intended to harm each other, but we are offering points of view interactively with opposition. As long as we keep love in it, and especially me if I cool down my ‘tude a bit, then we can be each others’ greatest asset. If I come to believe, fine. If not, we understand each other and learn to be the different parts of the body, which get along but are not all clones.

We are unified in Christ, but not in every devotion. Some people are altar servers, others lectors, others church cleaners. Some pray Rosaries; others do silent prayer and adoration with or without any structure. There are hundreds of times as many Catholic treasures as one could ever hope to read/view/experience. So we all are working for Christ which means we love each other. We still have our specialities; the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker, as it were.

MS

There are many Paths to God, but Virgin Mary is a shortcut.

 

[ccmcmg]

Hi,
Is having approval at a Bishop local level somehow “less worthy” or same as if approval at Vatican level?
Just wondering because Barnabas Nwoye is approved by local Archdiocese but he claims that the antichrist is in the world today

While you can believe in it, I suppose, since I’m not there to see it myself, nor do I know anyone personally who was, I prefer to wait on these things from the Vatican.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

There are many Paths to God, but Virgin Mary is a shortcut.

:banghead:



I mean:

 

[Elena321]

But how can we have two teachings?

Ie:What if one Catholic doesn’t believe in literal physical burning hell but then another one does because Mary of Fatima showed it is…then what?

 

[Path_Finder]

One can choose not to believe in the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima. I don’t think as a Catholic, one can “reject” it.

 

[Bookcat]

"I would like finally to mention another key expression of the “secret” which has become justly famous: “my Immaculate Heart will triumph”. What does this mean? The Heart open to God, purified by contemplation of God, is stronger than guns and weapons of every kind. The fiat of Mary, the word of her heart, has changed the history of the world, because it brought the Saviour into the world—because, thanks to her Yes, God could become man in our world and remains so for all time. The Evil One has power in this world, as we see and experience continually; he has power because our freedom continually lets itself be led away from God. But since God himself took a human heart and has thus steered human freedom towards what is good, the freedom to choose evil no longer has the last word. From that time forth, the word that prevails is this: “In the world you will have tribulation, but take heart; I have overcome the world” (Jn 16:33). The message of Fatima invites us to trust in this promise. "

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect of the Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

But how can we have two teachings?

Ie:What if one Catholic doesn’t believe in literal physical burning hell but then another one does because Mary of Fatima showed it is…then what?

This is precisely why I have chosen to quit concerning myself with the rules about what happens after I die. Once “I” die, in the way that “I” think “I” exist as a mortal, thinking human being with a brain and will and whatever I experience, then whatever goes on after that, is “out of my control.”

What IS under my control, is whether I act in a loving way. Whether I feel anger and desire for revenge against those who have done terrible things to me or others. Can I look at a serial sex molester/rapist testify in court and not wish he would feel the pain he has inflicted on others? This is what I worry about – learning to love my enemies as Jesus taught me, and to rejoice when they mock my religion like Jesus said in the beatitudes.

If I spend my life listening to Jesus as God the Father instructed from the cloud, and doing my best to “do what He says” as instructed by Mary, that’s the best I can do. Everything else in addition to the precepts of the Church are optional. I don’t need to buy into others’ idea that focusing repeatedly on the horrors of somewhere I would never go, is a Good Thing.

Let others fight and argue about what happens after I die. Jesus left us clear lessons we can use to learn to live our best. And if I do that, and it isn’t good enough, then how would I have been better off for having pondered how terrible “hell” is?

I don’t need to spend an hour a day focused on how terrible it would be if I drove drunk and killed somebody. If I just don’t drink at all, it’s never an issue. More scaring about the dangers of drunk driving, can’t make me drink less than zero. :whacky:

Just like “mortal sin” is never something I can do without specifically intending to, so if I don’t do that I really don’t care how terrible “hell” is except it’s interesting to discuss terrible things, but only if in the mood not as a discipline. For you, you go for it if that’s what you think helps you become closer to union with God.

MS