Why I reject fatima

[Techno2000]

Scared? Scared how?

I believe in Fatima, but you have Visions of Hell,Wars and Secrets about the End of the World, plus the Sun itself moving in the sky, I think to some people its a bit too much for them to handle.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Well, look at God’s people Israel, every time they slipped into sin war came upon them. Do you think that won’t apply today?

Statements like this are why I think there’s a huge problem with the way Catholics attribute the ills that plague humanity.

 

[Elena321]

Because of the attitudes of a lot of Fatima devotees, the message comes off as “fast and pray the rosary, or else we’re all royally jones’d.”

I said this earlier (and it went ignored), but I was disconcerted by Mary’s statement that wars are “punishment from God for sin”. This is precisely what the Westboro Baptist Church says. Am I the only one who sees this statement as problematic?

No,your not the only one.

While I believe something spiritual likely did happen and I don’t believe the children were lying and I acknowledge/respect people’s devotion to this, at the same time I have concerns,including:

1.The apparition suggesting God would use Russia to punish people for sin.Does God do this?How does this then seperate Catholics from people such as that you mentioned(Westboro Baptist)?

2.Mother Mary(?) showing impressionable,credulous,easily frightening children a “vision of hell” that included burning people,gruesome animal demons etc…
Even if people say she told the children they themselves wern’t going there,it doesn’t lessen the concern.
Mother Mary-who we uphold as most high model of motherhood & great virtue-terrifying little kids instead of protecting them-doesn’t sit right.

3.The similarity between the “visions of hell” shown at Fatima & non approved apparitions or Claimed NDE experiences “visions of hell”.The whole “terrify people to believe in God” atmosphere I see in Fatima messages too along with non approved ones.

4.Being told to console Jesus for the sins of the world.Are the children or we meant to do that?

 

[Path_Finder]

No,your not the only one.

While I believe something spiritual likely did happen and I don’t believe the children were lying and I acknowledge/respect people’s devotion to this, at the same time I have concerns,including:

1.The apparition suggesting God would use Russia to punish people for sin.Does God do this?How does this then seperate Catholics from people such as that you mentioned(Westboro Baptist)?

2.Mother Mary(?) showing impressionable,credulous,easily frightening children a “vision of hell” that included burning people,gruesome animal demons etc…
Even if people say she told the children they themselves wern’t going there,it doesn’t lessen the concern.
Mother Mary-who we uphold as most high model of motherhood & great virtue-terrifying little kids instead of protecting them-doesn’t sit right.

3.The similarity between the “visions of hell” shown at Fatima & non approved apparitions or Claimed NDE experiences “visions of hell”.The whole “terrify people to believe in God” atmosphere I see in Fatima messages too along with non approved ones.

4.Being told to console Jesus for the sins of the world.Are the children or we meant to do that?

Your #1. I don’t think the message of Fatima is that Russia would be used to “punish the world”, I think more on message would be that “Russia would spread its errors” if we did not pray for it and indeed, if Russia was not consecrated. In this sense of spreading errors, yes, perhaps we had the Iron Curtain and Warsaw Pact and USSR.

What I’m sometimes a bit apprehensive of is that we are to take the words of children and not only of children but basically of one child, Lucia because Francisco and Jacinta passed on soon afterwards due to the flue epidemic.

On the other side of the coin, I once read a Priest say that yes, as far as the Catholic Church goes, we don’t have to believe in an apparition (or however it is stated) but it merits belief.

But the Priest was saying, “God went to the trouble to perform a miracle that day, so we had better pay attention to it, it must have been important, if He were to do that.”

Lastly, the message is online and in books, best to read it for understanding ourselves.

One of the last threads had a link to Father DeMarchi’s book on Fatima, available online to read. He was a foremost authority on it. Boomerang posted the link, I remember that.

 

[Elena321]

Your #1. I don’t think the message of Fatima is that Russia would be used to “punish the world”, I think more on message would be that “Russia would spread its errors” if we did not pray for it and indeed, if Russia was not consecrated. In this sense of spreading errors, yes, perhaps we had the Iron Curtain and Warsaw Pact and USSR.

What I’m sometimes a bit apprehensive of is that we are to take the words of children and not only of children but basically of one child, Lucia because Francisco and Jacinta passed on soon afterwards due to the flue epidemic.

On the other side of the coin, I once read a Priest say that yes, as far as the Catholic Church goes, we don’t have to believe in an apparition (or however it is stated) but it merits belief.

But the Priest was saying, “God went to the trouble to perform a miracle that day, so we had better pay attention to it, it must have been important, if He were to do that.”

Lastly, the message is online and in books, best to read it for understanding ourselves.

One of the last threads had a link to Father DeMarchi’s book on Fatima, available online to read. He was a foremost authority on it. Boomerang posted the link, I remember that.

Thanks.That would make more sense.However,the things that I have read about Fatima online specifically use words to imply a “chastisement” such as:

“The Fatima message is a call for men to give up sinful practices which grieve God and draw down His chastisements on the world, and to make reparation for them”

rosary-center.org/fatimams.htm

“She
said that if people did not stop offending God, He would **punish the world severely ** by means of war, famine, persecution of the Church, and persecution of the Holy Father. To prevent these chastisements, Our Lady offered a remedy:…”

fatima.org/essentials/message/genmsg.asp

 

[Elena321]

Also honestly,the messages of Gods chastisement in **approved ** Apparitiions concerns me because I don’t see them as being any different from non approved ones.

Eg:“Mary” of Akita saying
“In order that the world might know His anger, the Heavenly Father is preparing to inflict a great chastisement on all mankind”
ewtn.com/library/MARY/AKITA.HTM

Gods impending chastisement/wrath & the need for us to avert it,seems to be a common theme in approved and unapproved apparitions & also messages from so-called “evangelical prophets” (non Catholic)

 

[Memaw]

Statements like this are why I think there’s a huge problem with the way Catholics attribute the ills that plague humanity.

Then I think you have to take that up with God! He tells us, through Our Lady of Fatima, how to avoid war. If only we listen. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Ed_Silvia]

Gods impending chastisement/wrath & the need for us to avert it,seems to be a common theme in approved and unapproved apparitions & also messages from so-called “evangelical prophets” (non Catholic)

Some things don’t change. When John the Baptist began his ministry he alluded to impending wrath of God. He didn’t seem to care if it threatened people.

Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

 

[Path_Finder]

Also honestly,the messages of Gods chastisement in **approved ** Apparitiions concerns me because I don’t see them as being any different from non approved ones.

Eg:“Mary” of Akita saying
“In order that the world might know His anger, the Heavenly Father is preparing to inflict a great chastisement on all mankind”
ewtn.com/library/MARY/AKITA.HTM

Gods impending chastisement/wrath & the need for us to avert it,seems to be a common theme in approved and unapproved apparitions & also messages from so-called “evangelical prophets” (non Catholic)

You bring up good points but at the same time, it’s hard to envision a century that was as turbulent and where we had such evil forces operating as in the 20th century. Nazism and Communism. And now, we certainly have another evil force at work in the world. For the time being, somewhat contained.

It’s interesting, going back to Our Lady of La Sallete, some of these messages are indeed apocalyptic.

marypages.com/LaSaletteEng1.htm

OR in fact, how about Our Lady of Kibeho, approved I believe though it may be “Bishop Approved”. It is not for me to understand the messages that those children received concerning events that would come to pass in Rwanda but on the surface, I do believe Our Lady told the children that very bad things would happen in Rwanda.

ourladyofkibeho.com/?p=17

In another message, Our Lady tried to prevent the impending genocide: ““I speak to you who hold power, and who represent the nation: save the people, instead of being their torturers. Don’t rob the people; share with others. Be careful not to persecute, to muzzle those who want to denounce your errors. I say it to you, I repeat it, whatever you do, even though you try everything to harm somebody because he loves his fellow men, defends human rights, fights for the respect of the life of others, and for the truth and all that is good, and even because he fights so that God may be loved and respected, whatever you do, you can do nothing against him.”

This above is rather general but perhaps some other messages are more descriptive.

 

[Path_Finder]

Appartions are deemed “worthy of belief”, though it is a semantics game, I believe saying “I reject Fatima” (note, with a capital F at that) may be a bit excessive.

---

Fatima also probably got some traction as it is “anti-Communistic” in its message. Still, I have always questioned the timeline some. However, let’s also remember, this was not in the days of the Internet. The Papal Authorities may have had Lucia’s messages but in the end, by the time the apparitions at Fatima were approved in 1929-1932, I forget the exact year, a lot of those events had happened. There is a procedure to examine Apparitions. It does not seem done in a timely fashion.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

What I would like to know is why do people shout from the roof tops…YOU DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IT…YOU DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IT…YOU DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IT… !!!

Hyperbole like that isn’t helpful. And to your question: some people act like Fatima (or apparitions in general) has more weight than it actually does. And there are subtle suggestions that people who don’t believe in them are spiritually deficient somehow (not docile, scared, disobedient, etc.) Reminding those who have trouble believing apparitions that they don’t have to believe in them should be helpful if apparitions are a stumbling block and to those who push apparitions, the reminder is just pushback.

Exactly.

I only yell that because for every one of me, there seem to be 100 yelling “YOU SHOULD BELIEVE THIS OR YOU’RE NOT REALLY CATHOLIC ENOUGH.” This thread is a refreshing exception, but I think it’s partly because others and I didn’t give up on holding to the Actual Truth as opposed to somebody’s Wishful Thinking are TRVTH.

That is, I’m only yelling the truth to try to balance out others who promote lies and manipulation and actually risk driving people to error and fear, by refusing to make it clear to anybody that it is optional.

And if it’s true, Techno, why are you concerned about its being repeated? Do you consider it an “inconvenient” truth?

 

[Techno2000]

Exactly.

I only yell that because for every one of me, there seem to be 100 yelling “YOU SHOULD BELIEVE THIS OR YOU’RE NOT REALLY CATHOLIC ENOUGH.” This thread is a refreshing exception, but I think it’s partly because others and I didn’t give up on holding to the Actual Truth as opposed to somebody’s Wishful Thinking are TRVTH.

That is, I’m only yelling the truth to try to balance out others who promote lies and manipulation and actually risk driving people to error and fear, by refusing to make it clear to anybody that it is optional.

And if it’s true, Techno, why are you concerned about its being repeated? Do you consider it an “inconvenient” truth?

Mystical Seeker… the Virgin Mary appeared to St. Dominic and give him the Rosary what is your take on that ?

PS I don’t really think about Fatima except when a thread pop up now and then.

 

[Path_Finder]

Exactly.

I only yell that because for every one of me, there seem to be 100 yelling “YOU SHOULD BELIEVE THIS OR YOU’RE NOT REALLY CATHOLIC ENOUGH.” This thread is a refreshing exception, but I think it’s partly because others and I didn’t give up on holding to the Actual Truth as opposed to somebody’s Wishful Thinking are TRVTH.

That is, I’m only yelling the truth to try to balance out others who promote lies and manipulation and actually risk driving people to error and fear, by refusing to make it clear to anybody that it is optional.

And if it’s true, Techno, why are you concerned about its being repeated? Do you consider it an “inconvenient” truth?

Likewise, I would not say in “caps” “You should believe this or you’re not Catholic enough”, let us remember what language the Church is using, “worthy of belief”, nothing more or less.

The rest, “promoting lies”, etc. I don’t buy that. I would like to see the kind of statements you are asserting others make.

 

[Lormar]

The supposed " miracle" itself wasnt very impressive. It can very easily be explained by non divine causes. I think it can be attributed to auto suggestion. I mean consider the fact that those over zealous spectators were WAITING for a miracle. And interestingly they only saw something AFTER lucia pointed at the Sun and said " look the sun".

The hypothesis of auto suggestion is further backed up by the fact that everyone saw something DIFFERENT. (Some saw nothing at all) that indicates that the alleged " miracle" was probably just mass hysteria.
Second, moving on to the supposed “secrets” . Isnt it suspicious that they were written down and revealed AFTER the events took place? ( ill get to the third “secret” later).
Heres what I think really happened at fatima and why. Lets take a look at Lucias personal and family life. People said that lucias father was overly religious to the point of being mentally ill. Furthermore it is also revealed that he had some dislike towards the local priest. And vice versa. So much so that they went to the parish in the neighboring town! Hmm dont you think it wouldve benefitted him if all of a sudden his daughter would recieve " messages" from the blessed virgin? Ill bet that he thought that would show that priest how “holy” his family is. Another suspicious thing is that lucias FATHER took her to the alleged apparition sites EVEN after her mother forbade it. The picture is coming together now, isn’t it?
So thus in conclusion I think fatima is a man made fabrication. But youre probably thinking why I posted this. Well I see a troubling trend among catholics to just blindly believe ANY claim of an apparition or miracle. Further more I dont think its good that theres so many versions of the virgin Mary. Theres only ONE virgin. No lady of akita, no lady of this and that. Second if you examine the alleged apparitions words at fatima they are quite alarming. The virgin Mary seems to repeatedly keep glorifying herself. “God wants to establish a devotion to MY heart”. She also never talks about leading people to God. It seems she wants people to trust in HER and not God. As for the third secret, remember the bible verse: " beware of false prophets, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS" well the third secret has only caused discord in the church. It has only caused people to distrust the church. Usually all these apparitions claiming corruption of the church are very suspicious. YhThe REAL virgin Mary would never reveal information that is damaging to the church or that would harnm the faith of the faithful.

I haven’t read through this thread, so I have no idea what has and hasn’t been said in response to your post, but I somewhat agree with you about Fatima.

However, it is the Miracle of the Sun that gives me pause. You say it can be explained, but I say no. It had been pouring rain there. No “auto-suggestion” can dry the clothes of thousands of people.

 

[Ed_Silvia]

… However, it is the Miracle of the Sun that gives me pause. You say it can be explained, but I say no. It had been pouring rain there. No “auto-suggestion” can dry the clothes of thousands of people.

It should be mentioned that the miracle was predicted weeks in advance! What can compare with it?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Mystical Seeker… the Virgin Mary appeared to St. Dominic and give him the Rosary what is your take on that ?

No opinion at all about it. I’m assuming somebody does believe this by virtue of your question; not I one way or the other.

 

[LightBound]

When promoting the message and vision of Fatima, please stay away from Fr Gruner’s site. There are other Fatima pages, faithful to the Magisterium, that do not plant doubt in one’s head and heart regarding the validity of the Consecration of Russia, the Mass in OF, and the Church in general.

I’ve noticed several members on this thread already that have posted links to fatima-dot-org and I believe that is against forum rules, as the site promotes a spirit of disobedience to the Magisterium. You can read more about why that site is a “danger” on the link below.

catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=41

Official site from the Vatican, vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

The Blue Army- World Apostolate of Fatima has shown to be faithful to the Church and promotes the authentic message of Fatima. wafusa.org/

 

[Lormar]

It should be mentioned that the miracle was predicted weeks in advance! What can compare with it?

Ed, have you ever been to the Blue Army grounds in Washington, New Jersey? John Haffert’s tribute to Our Lady of Fatima. He was a great man.

 

[Ed_Silvia]

Ed, have you ever been to the Blue Army grounds in Washington, New Jersey? John Haffert’s tribute to Our Lady of Fatima. He was a great man.

I live about 20 miles from it, so yes. It’s a funny story that the one time I saw John Haffert was the night my wife and I went to the all night vigil and at the mid point when there’s confession John, bless his heart, walked right in front of me into the confessional. I chuckled to myself knowing who he was That was 20 yrs ago. I just bought his book In Her Own Words to the Nuclear Age. I won’t elaborate cuz we wouldn’t want to frighten anyone.

 

[Lormar]

I live about 20 miles from it, so yes. It’s a funny story that the one time I saw John Haffert was the night my wife and I went to the all night vigil and at the mid point when there’s confession John, bless his heart, walked right in front of me into the confessional. I chuckled to myself knowing who he was That was 20 yrs ago. I just bought his book In Her Own Words to the Nuclear Age. I won’t elaborate cuz we wouldn’t want to frighten anyone.

Do you go there often? If so, say a prayer for me in the Holy House. I used to love that chapel so much.

John Haffert was very kind to me when I needed help once in the eighties. I love reading everything and anything he has ever written. Have the book you just bought as well. I think I will get it out of the book box it is in and read it myself.