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cena
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I’m pretty sure the Church is against socialism
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Techno2000
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http://brizek.com/prayer/images/ourlady.gifBut, its the Blessed Mother who enriches everything.Going by apparitions is some people’s Particular “Flavor” of acting in faith toward her. Just because you like may think tutti-frutti ice cream is much more interesting and enriching than vanilla, doesn’t mean vanilla is no longer a valid flavor; in fact it is the most popular flavor.
brizek.com/prayer/pieta.htm
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saintjohnxxiii
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My post was not directed at you but to the OP. The comment about atheists was not to anyone on this thread as well.You are wrong. You are misrepresenting the Church as saying it is required to believe in it, because it is “approved.” You are lying about the Church, and using it as a weapon to disparage those like me who don’t believe the same “optional” things you do.
It just means the Church is OK with it if you choose to. Tell me again that I must or I’m against the Church, and you will again act in hostility against Church teachings for the purpose of proving to your ego and everyone else’s, that you are More Catholic than some persona on the Internet. Petty, or justified?
You are wrong. Do you understand that? Quit telling me that I am against Church doctrine by not believing it. Do you always enslave others to those optional church practices you have made to your own liking? I think maybe you are an atheist if you do not go to daily Mass. What about that? Daily Mass is approved upon by the Vatican, and no fourth hand stories of visions required. :tsktsk:
And to compare not believing in Fatima to atheism, is to say that Catholic Teachings allow atheism. :whacky:
So back off binding me to practices the Church does not, or I will sic you on a bunch of geocentric literalist creationists who believe, against Church teachings, that every chapter of Genesis MUST be interpreted literally, the earth was created in six literal 24 hour periods, and that the earth is objectively the center of the creation, and even the idea of a reference frame with the sun at the center of out solar system is blasphemous.
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Mystical_Seeker
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OK, so the “atheist” remark did not refer to anyone on the thread. And the OP did not self-disclose as “atheist” and does in fact show “catholic” in the profile so it wasn’t about atheists.
OH, I get it. You’re not saying anyone is atheist. You are equating Catholics who don’t believe in Fatima because it is Church approved, to atheists not believing in God, based on their presumed arrogance in holding such a position against wiser teachers.
Whomever was your target and whatever your intent, you are still being Part of the Problem as far as I can tell. Thank you for bringing it up so we can focus this a little bit.
It is Church approved but optional to believe. But if we don’t believe it, we’re like atheists saying there is no God. And if that isn’t a valid metaphor in your opinion, why did you put them together? And if you did not intend them to be together, why did you yourself just quote them together? :whacky:
What part of this, exactly, are you trying to weasel out of? Your assertion that as far as I can tell, only fools and “atheist-like Catholics” comprise those who do not believe in Fatima?
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saintjohnxxiii
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What I am saying is that the hierarchy who have forgotten more than you or I will ever know have thoroughly examined Fatima and have said it is worthy of belief. The fact that they said just that means that there is NO CHANCE of error, or the devil being behind it.OK, so the “atheist” remark did not refer to anyone on the thread. And the OP did not self-disclose as “atheist” and does in fact show “catholic” in the profile so it wasn’t about atheists.
OH, I get it. You’re not saying anyone is atheist. You are equating Catholics who don’t believe in Fatima because it is Church approved, to atheists not believing in God, based on their presumed arrogance in holding such a position against wiser teachers.
Whomever was your target and whatever your intent, you are still being Part of the Problem as far as I can tell. Thank you for bringing it up so we can focus this a little bit.
It is Church approved but optional to believe. But if we don’t believe it, we’re like atheists saying there is no God. And if that isn’t a valid metaphor in your opinion, why did you put them together? And if you did not intend them to be together, why did you yourself just quote them together? :whacky:
What part of this, exactly, are you trying to weasel out of? Your assertion that as far as I can tell, only fools and “atheist-like Catholics” comprise those who do not believe in Fatima?
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Bruised_Reed
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Could you offer an explanation as to why Mary said that the children’s friend would be in Purgatory until the end of the world? That makes it sound like prayers or Masses said for her are worthless. What is also sounds like is that someone wasn’t fond of Amelia’s behavior so she is banned to Purgatory as a scare tactic.
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theoda
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I have only 1 question for you: Ho do you explain the fact that one of the children was canonized? If canonizations are infallible, then that person is in heaven. There is no way they would be able to get to heaven if they lied about this.The supposed " miracle" itself wasnt very impressive. It can very easily be explained by non divine causes. I think it can be attributed to auto suggestion. I mean consider the fact that those over zealous spectators were WAITING for a miracle. And interestingly they only saw something AFTER lucia pointed at the Sun and said " look the sun".
The hypothesis of auto suggestion is further backed up by the fact that everyone saw something DIFFERENT. (Some saw nothing at all) that indicates that the alleged " miracle" was probably just mass hysteria.
Second, moving on to the supposed “secrets” . Isnt it suspicious that they were written down and revealed AFTER the events took place? ( ill get to the third “secret” later).
Heres what I think really happened at fatima and why. Lets take a look at Lucias personal and family life. People said that lucias father was overly religious to the point of being mentally ill. Furthermore it is also revealed that he had some dislike towards the local priest. And vice versa. So much so that they went to the parish in the neighboring town! Hmm dont you think it wouldve benefitted him if all of a sudden his daughter would recieve " messages" from the blessed virgin? Ill bet that he thought that would show that priest how “holy” his family is. Another suspicious thing is that lucias FATHER took her to the alleged apparition sites EVEN after her mother forbade it. The picture is coming together now, isn’t it?
So thus in conclusion I think fatima is a man made fabrication. But youre probably thinking why I posted this. Well I see a troubling trend among catholics to just blindly believe ANY claim of an apparition or miracle. Further more I dont think its good that theres so many versions of the virgin Mary. Theres only ONE virgin. No lady of akita, no lady of this and that. Second if you examine the alleged apparitions words at fatima they are quite alarming. The virgin Mary seems to repeatedly keep glorifying herself. “God wants to establish a devotion to MY heart”. She also never talks about leading people to God. It seems she wants people to trust in HER and not God. As for the third secret, remember the bible verse: " beware of false prophets, YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS" well the third secret has only caused discord in the church. It has only caused people to distrust the church. Usually all these apparitions claiming corruption of the church are very suspicious. YhThe REAL virgin Mary would never reveal information that is damaging to the church or that would harnm the faith of the faithful.
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Elena321
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This is what confuses me and makes it hard for me to know if the apparition claims are true or not because the bible shows us God used simple people,but at the same time children can be credulous or gullible,which we are warned not to be.
For example,Colton Burpo,claimed as a young boy to have a visit to heaven & Jesus spoke etc but his visit/message does not match Catholic teachings.
This boy definitely has the simple ness & innocence of a child and is sweet & adorable etc but his perceived “visits” not from God.
Perhaps we need to distinguish between “simple people”(not pride filled) versus “simple minded people”.
So to speak,if I was God,I’d use a person who was an average person but intelligent,if I was satan I’d use a simple minded person who was credulous.
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Mystical_Seeker
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So if there is NO CHANCE of error, that makes it infallible and we are required to believe in it.
kpeople:I didn’t realize it was required to believe in it – at the risk of calling the Church a liar.
So you are once again repeating that by not believing something the Church gives me the option to “not believe,” that I am in fact rejecting infallible doctrine. That’s obviously how that atheist remark came up earlier.
The end result is that no matter how many ways you slice it, you believe that someone who does not believe in Fatima is rejecting Church teachings. And yet that is not what the Church teaches, unless I’m completely wrong as well as all the other posters in this thread. And that’s where I call Tsk Tsk. :tsktsk:
Or you are wrong and you really are mentally binding me to teachings the Church does not. That could be a possibility, but I can see how unlikely a possibility you consider that to be. :bigyikes:
Why don’t you just let other people worship within the confines of Catholicism the way they choose, and you do it your way, and quit telling me that those of us who makes a choice you don’t like, are effectively atheists? Do I tell you how to pray and not pray? Have I told you that you should disbelieve Fatima? :hey_bud:
Just pray your way and let the rest of us have our method of prayers without your judgment and condescension, if you can possibly muster that??? I really don’t even think you understand the problem yet so I advise you just quit even talking to people who don’t agree with Fatima because for you it is apparently a near occasion for sin. :newidea:
Or just drop it because every time you try to explain yourself, unfortunately you do.
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Techno2000
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What I would like to know is why do people shout from the roof tops…YOU DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IT…YOU DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IT…YOU DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IT… !!!So if there is NO CHANCE of error, that makes it infallible and we are required to believe in it.
I didn’t realize it was required to believe in it – at the risk of calling the Church a liar.
So you are once again repeating that by not believing something the Church gives me the option to “not believe,” that I am in fact rejecting infallible doctrine. That’s obviously how that atheist remark came up earlier.
The end result is that no matter how many ways you slice it, you believe that someone who does not believe in Fatima is rejecting Church teachings. And yet that is not what the Church teaches, unless I’m completely wrong as well as all the other posters in this thread. And that’s where I call Tsk Tsk. :tsktsk:
Or you are wrong and you really are mentally binding me to teachings the Church does not. That could be a possibility, but I can see how unlikely a possibility you consider that to be. :bigyikes:
Why don’t you just let other people worship within the confines of Catholicism the way they choose, and you do it your way, and quit telling me that those of us who makes a choice you don’t like, are effectively atheists? Do I tell you how to pray and not pray? Have I told you that you should disbelieve Fatima? :hey_bud:
Just pray your way and let the rest of us have our method of prayers without your judgment and condescension, if you can possibly muster that??? I really don’t even think you understand the problem yet so I advise you just quit even talking to people who don’t agree with Fatima because for you it is apparently a near occasion for sin. :newidea:
Or just drop it because every time you try to explain yourself, unfortunately you do.
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Ed_Silvia
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Less other readers be mislead our Church has spoken for Jesus and it demands we recognize Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception and Her Assumption into Heaven.
Don’t you agree?
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Memaw
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I think it’s because they do not understand what they should believe. NO private Revelation will ever be put on the same level as Public Revelation ( what we HAVE to believe to be a faithful Catholic). The Church, after a very thorough investigation of the actual witnesses etc., tells us it is "Worthy of Belief " That means we are in no spiritual danger believing in it’s message etc. It says or does nothing contrary to our Holy Faith. (In fact Pope Pius XII said it was a “Reaffirmation of the Gospels”!!) While it is not on the same level as Public Revelation, it is still worthy of belief. The Church has NEVER said we should ignore or turn our back on an approved Private Revelation and its message. Look at the Miracles at Lourdes!!! Devotion to the Sacred Heart is a private revelation, so is Divine Mercy and it has a special feast day too. Our spiritual protection is in the Church’s declaration it is “Worthy of Belief.” That ought to be enough for every faithful Catholic. To ignore that is very foolish in my opinion. But we must be careful to learn from authentic sources, (such as the World Apostolate of Fatima, Blue Army, under the Vatican. and not the ones that go against what the church does. (such as the Fatima Crusader). God Bless, Memaw
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Techno2000
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I think some people are just flat-out scared by things like this.
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Memaw
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Why in the world anyone would be afraid of an approved private revelation is beyond me! God sends these spiritual helps to do just that. TO HELP US. I personally would be afraid to ignore or ridicule them. It is an act of God after all. If we ever have hope of getting this country out of the trouble it’s in, we better truly start paying attention to what Our Blessed Mother said at FATIMA !! Pray the Rosary every day for the conversion of sinners! I am more afraid of what may happen if we don’t. Especially for our children and grandchildren!! God Bless, Memaw
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Bruised_Reed
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Hyperbole like that isn’t helpful. And to your question: some people act like Fatima (or apparitions in general) has more weight than it actually does. And there are subtle suggestions that people who don’t believe in them are spiritually deficient somehow (not docile, scared, disobedient, etc.) Reminding those who have trouble believing apparitions that they don’t have to believe in them should be helpful if apparitions are a stumbling block and to those who push apparitions, the reminder is just pushback.
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Bruised_Reed
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Scared? Scared how?
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Path_Finder
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The thread is a good thread, I have questions on Fatima but as for the crowd following Lucia’s instructions to “look at the sun”, let’s remember, thousands of people were there so even if she said that, it couldn’t reach everyone, even as a chain reaction.
Also, part of what we are told, is the sun’s antics were seen from, ? 20 miles away or so.
“The witnesses” by John Haffert is a good read.
If Fatima had happened 10 years later, I think coverage might have been slightly better.
Also, part of what we are told, is the sun’s antics were seen from, ? 20 miles away or so.
“The witnesses” by John Haffert is a good read.
If Fatima had happened 10 years later, I think coverage might have been slightly better.
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JackVk
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Because of the attitudes of a lot of Fatima devotees, the message comes off as “fast and pray the rosary, or else we’re all royally jones’d.”Scared? Scared how?
I said this earlier (and it went ignored), but I was disconcerted by Mary’s statement that wars are “punishment from God for sin”. This is precisely what the Westboro Baptist Church says. Am I the only one who sees this statement as problematic?
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Path_Finder
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That’s a great observation. Never thought of that. Especially since I’ve seen a few stories that seem to say that at one unapproved apparition site, there may have been cases of eye damage. I’ll research that later. If they were staring at the sun, no eye injuries are reported.
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Ed_Silvia
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Well, look at God’s people Israel, every time they slipped into sin war came upon them. Do you think that won’t apply today?
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