Why I rejected Sola Fide

[Rightlydivide]

Correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but it sounds to me as though you are saying you do not believe the old is revealed in the new.

Lets simplify this.

Let me ask you a question, where does salvation coming by grace through faith to GENTILES appear in the OT?

 

[heisenburg]

God Can give salvation to whom ever he choses… however, he explicitly says that he will graft the gentiles into the tree, and thus making them adopted sons of Abraham…

Are we Gentiles? yes… but there are plenty of references in the OT ok Foreigners being accepted into the Judism. So yes. there are gentiles in the OT that were offered salvation… just not in a blanket statement like in the New. In other words… A shadow is present

So, the family is effectively continued by us being grafted in. Furthermore, His salvation is offered in an ever expanding way.

First to a one (adam), then a family (Abraham) then a people (Isreal) whats next… the world it is an extension, and thus the shadow is Further clearly there…

In Christ

 

[Rightlydivide]

God Can give salvation to whom ever he choses… however, he explicitly says that he will graft the gentiles into the tree, and thus making them adopted sons of Abraham…

Your quoting Romans 11 not the OT

 

[heisenburg]

However, it should be noted that he explicitly says that he will graft the gentiles into the tree, and thus making them adopted sons of Abraham… In otherwords, though they are gentiles, they are considered part of the Jewish Family in His eyes

So, the family is effectively continued by us being grafted in.

Further more,there are plenty of references in the OT that ok Foreigners being accepted into the Judism. If you read Exodus, and Leviticus, there are countless times where God says something to the effect of 'so to with Foreigners ’ So yes. there are gentiles in the OT that were offered salvation… just not in a blanket statement like in the New. In other words… A shadow is present. Its actually a pretty big shadow if you think about how OFTEN Foreigners were mentioned. Furthermore, foreigners were absolutely aloud in the Covenant. Once again, the OT tells us HOW they were to become members of the covenant. So, Gentiles were included in his plan even then… A Shadow

Furthermore, His salvation is offered in an ever expanding way.

First to a one (adam), then a family (Abraham) then a people (Isreal) whats next… the world. it is an extension, and thus the shadow is Further clearly there…

In Christ

 

[heisenburg]

Your quoting Romans 11 not the OT

I was simply showing that there was a shadow, an extension of the family, so, therefore the family of Abraham is shadowing the later…

Anyway… I expanded my explanation. with a great deal more OT references… Please read… There is a very clear shadow of Gentiles being welcome and accepted in the OT

 

[Rightlydivide]

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Eph 3:3-6 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[heisenburg]

As mentioned… Your verses are 100% correct… I agree completely, However, I disagree with your interpretation…

As mentioned… The mystery of Jesus was kept secret… the Jews Had no idea what to Look for. Why? because they did NOT have a proper understanding of the OT. However, Jesus ministry made sense of those things that were a mystery in the OT. Verses that were once hidden/mysterious/confused/etc were clarified through Christ.

Does that mean there was no shadow? Of course not. I simply means that they didn’t know it WAS a shadow until after the fact

These verses you provide fit that understanding.

However, that being said, There is a shadow of gentiles being allowed into salvation in the OT… they just didn’t know it would end up meaning the Blanket statement as preached by the NT Authors. So in this case, you have a shadow for those that understand His ministry. But if you have no knowledge of it, it is a mystery that is hidden in the OT. Your verses fit both aspects of what I am trying to say.

In Christ

 

[RNRobert]

So you do EVERYTHING the Bible required in ALL dispensations? That is fascinating. I would think the county health department would object to the priestly sacrifices…

 

[Rightlydivide]

The dispensationalists that Currie referred to threw out not only the OT, but the Gospels and other parts of the New Testament that didn’t square with their theology

.

In most cases, well in all I knew, it was a painful process to give up preconceived notions. I imagine you know more dispensationalists than I do and would be better qualified to make that assertion…

 

[RNRobert]

.

In most cases, well in all I knew, it was a painful process to give up preconceived notions. I imagine you know more dispensationalists than I do and would be better qualified to make that assertion…

I never said I knew alot of dispenstionalists. However, David Currie was the son of a preacher, attended Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and attended various Evangelical churches for several years, so he probably would know a number of dispensationalists.

 

[Rightlydivide]

I never said I knew alot of dispenstionalists. However, David Currie was the son of a preacher, attended Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and attended various Evangelical churches for several years, so he probably would know a number of dispensationalists.

Evangelical dispensationalist?
Is that like a Baptist Catholic?
But how did Currie KNOW they based their theology on throwing out parts that did not square with their theology?
There are two issues here, someone who makes a statement that presupposes the internal motivation of an individual(s) and then someone who repeats that as having merit. I wonder…when he was determining the motivation of people if he had a control group?
For example, all variable being equal, do…lets say Presbyterians(that is too large of a control group), lets narrow it, do Cumberland Presbyterians throw out parts of the Bible that do not square with their theology at a higher rate than ultradispensationalists? Of course, before one does that, they should really decided who is more likely to throw out parts of the Bible at a greater rate, Acts 2, mid-Acts, or Acts 28 dispensationalists?
Having said that, I think it is obvious to even the casual observer that of all the religous groups in the world, Roman Catholicism is least likely to throw away the parts of the Bible they like the least according to David Currie!
How can ANYONE argue with that???

 

[ThomasMore1535]

Evangelical dispensationalist?
Is that like a Baptist Catholic?
But how did Currie KNOW they based their theology on throwing out parts that did not square with their theology?
There are two issues here, someone who makes a statement that presupposes the internal motivation of an individual(s) and then someone who repeats that as having merit. I wonder…when he was determining the motivation of people if he had a control group?
For example, all variable being equal, do…lets say Presbyterians(that is too large of a control group), lets narrow it, do Cumberland Presbyterians throw out parts of the Bible that do not square with their theology at a higher rate than ultradispensationalists? Of course, before one does that, they should really decided who is more likely to throw out parts of the Bible at a greater rate, Acts 2, mid-Acts, or Acts 28 dispensationalists?
Having said that, I think it is obvious to even the casual observer that of all the religous groups in the world, Roman Catholicism is least likely to throw away the parts of the Bible they like the least according to David Currie!
How can ANYONE argue with that???

If you read Currie’s book on his conversion to Christ’s True Church, you will discover that he was immersed in dispensationalist theology from the moment he was born. His family personally knew the late Dr. John Walvoord, whom they had over for dinner on many occasions, and talked about dispensationalism. He did graduate work at the Moody Bible Institute, and he attempted to spread that false gospel until he saw the truth. Nobody who knows anything about him, friend or foe, can deny that he was, prior to his discovery of the truth, one of the foremost advocates and adherents to dispensationalism that there ever was.

I suggest you read his book on the Rapture and discover the truth of the extent to which dispensationlists throw out the Word of God, particularly Hebrews where it says that the sacrifices of old are done with, are surpassed by the infinite Cross of Christ, yet dispensationalists ignore this and insist that the Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices re-instituted. If this isn’t a huge whopper of throwing out scripture, I don’t know what is.

 

[Rightlydivide]

If you read Currie’s book on his conversion to Christ’s True Church, you will discover that he was immersed in dispensationalist theology from the moment he was born. His family personally knew the late Dr. John Walvoord, whom they had over for dinner on many occasions, and talked about dispensationalism

He did graduate work at the Moody Bible Institute, and he attempted to spread **that false gospel **until he saw the truth. Nobody who knows anything about him, friend or foe, can deny that he was, prior to his discovery of the truth, one of the foremost advocates and adherents to dispensationalism that there ever was.

I suggest you read his book on the Rapture and discover the truth of the extent to which dispensationlists throw out the Word of God, particularly Hebrews where it says that the sacrifices of old are done with, are surpassed by the infinite Cross of Christ, yet dispensationalists ignore this and insist that the Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices re-instituted. If this isn’t a huge whopper of throwing out scripture, I don’t know what is.

Yes many dispensationalists think the Temple will be rebuilt. At least a few Jews do as well. I am not suggesting the author of this book does not know something of mainstream schools that have lost their way like MBI concerning dispensational truth. I think I will follow the logic behind this, if the best place to learn about proper dispensationalism is a FORMER dispensationalist…I think the best place to learn about “the false gospel” of Catholicism must be a former Catholic…
What is the URL for Richard Bennett again…

 

[Bishopite]

Aspects of dispensationalism have been taught throughout history so that is a very broad question. For example, a premillennial belief is found in many writings early on. Salvation by faith as well. Clement’s letter to the Corinthians and in the writings of Polycarp as well.

Could you show some citations of Clement and Polycarp writings to back your claim?

As far as seeing the disntinct role of Paul, you have the Paulicians, probably the most misunderstood and mislabeled group in the history of Christianity, as the The Key of Truth

 

[Deacon2006]

And there you have it. The philopshies of the Protestants of the 18th and 19 th centuries building on the heretical simplifications of Luther et al. rewite history to justify that there own views.

While logic won’t permit them to say it, they create a pseudo theological history that sees the start of the church with the bible. They think the debate with the church is one of theology and not foundationally one of history. They don’t see the bible as an element of the Sacred Tradition that emerged over time through the guidance of a Holy Church.

Until they acknolwledge that an organised Church wrote the bible and distributed the bible and that bible refelcts the beliefs and practices of the existing Church that continue and endure until today they will be lost in the arguements of their own doom.

It is not in a study of the bible alone that will lead you to the truth it is a study of the Holiness of the Church that will lead you to the truth. It is the Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth. To know the Catholic Church is to know God to reject the holiness of the Church is to reject God.

It is because the Church is Holy that it could write Sacred Scripture and distribute with the authority of Truth for all believers, for all time. Yet many sin aginst the Holy Spirit, they profane the Church by ripping away its Holiness and calling it a wordly organization or worse. This is the unforgivable sin, the sin against the Holy Spirit.

Cathlics don’t need to find elements of the bible that justify our beliefs, all of history and all of scripture are what we believe. There is no time when Catholic Church did not exist and their is no doctrine taught by the Catholic Church that does not come from the Holy Spirit. All those who reject this truth and refuse to enter the church will be lost.

The Bible says in Antioch we were first called Christains presumablly by some of the jews and pagans as an insult. But the question is what did the belivers call themsleves in Antioch at that time? They called themsleves members of the catholic church.

Just like the old insult of Romanism has been widley adopted by catholics and they don’t mind be called roman catholic we also don’t mind be called Christian. However if you think being Christian is something different from being catholic then you are dead wrong that is just a historical fact that even a pagan can verify through historical research.

God Bless

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Having said that, I think it is obvious to even the casual observer that of all the religous groups in the world, Roman Catholicism is least likely to throw away the parts of the Bible they like the least according to David Currie!
How can ANYONE argue with that???

Good to see that your coming around to the fullness of Truth.

 

[mepatri]

One of the two pillars of the Protestant Reformation is Sola Fide, or “Faith Alone.” When I attended a Baptist, and later a non-denominational church, I heard this from the pulpit, on Evangelical TV and radio programs, as well as tracts and books. I was told that salvation was merely a matter of “believing in Jesus.” However, as a devout Christian, I read the Bible thoroughly, and what I read troubled me. The most obvious was the second chapter of James where he tells us that faith without works is dead and that we are not justified by faith alone (and this is the only time in the entire Bible that the words “faith alone” is mentioned). When I expressed my doubts to other Evangelical Christians, they directed me to Romans 10:9:

This passage means that once you accept Christ, your life will exhibit the fruit of the spirt. It doesn’t mean that you need to do works to have faith - many people can have faith but not do good works - so that alone disallows the Catholic view. James was saying that if you’ve accepted Christ, your works will reflect that fact.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 9

The good works we do after salvation testify to our new found faith. There is nothing you or I can do to improve upon, or to enhance what Christ already did for us on the cross. He insured our salvation - not us.

In the Bible, a jailer asked his prisoners, Paul and Silas:

“’Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ So they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.’” (Acts 16:30-31).

I don’t know how it can get any clearer than that.

 

[mepatri]

This is true. Salvation is purely the gift of God. It is not something we can accomplish on our own. However, as Paul continues in verse 10, we are “created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.” How we respond to that grace is of paramount importance.

Agreed - but again - the Catholic position is that faith combined with works is what saves you.

Paul also stated the need to show one’s repentance by one’s deed (Acts 26:20), and tells us in 1 Tim 5:8 that those who neglect their families are worse than unbelievers. If we fail to respond to the grace that God gives us, we are like the foolish servant who buried his talent in the field. The Bible makes it clear that we will be judged according to our works.

Being judged according to our works is seperate and apart from our salvation. Paul made this clear. You will be judged for many things you did in your life, but the Catholic belief that salvation is attained by a combination of faith and works is incorrect.

 

[mepatri]

This and other passages indicated the importance of believing in Jesus to have eternal life, which I felt was Scriptural evidence of “Faith Alone.”
However, I read in James 2:19 that “Even the demons believe that and tremble.”Jesus himself warns in Matthew 7:21 that not all who say ‘Lord, Lord’ will inherit the Kingdom and in Luke 6:46 chides his listeners "Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?” Indeed, some of the things in the Bible that scared me the most were the words that came from the mouth of our Savior.

The scripture actually reads:

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. James 2:19

This is a reference to the monotheistic God of the Bible. The belief of the demons is correct - there is only one God. Satan’s claim that he would be “like the most high” or like God is false, and this is what makes the demons tremble. Their belief is not a saving faith.

Your reference to Matthew 7:21 is a reference to Jesus’ statement that not everyone who says they believe He is Lord really believes it. They run around doing works and believing that is what saves them. This is not so, and Jesus points it out here. He validates Paul’s statement:

‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .’ ”

It’s all pretty clear.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Agreed - but again - the Catholic position is that faith combined with works is what saves you.

Being judged according to our works is seperate and apart from our salvation. Paul made this clear. You will be judged for many things you did in your life, but the Catholic belief that salvation is attained by a combination of faith and works is incorrect.

Apparently, you have no idea what the Catholic Church actually teaches regarding faith.

This is the summary of Catholic belief.

We believe we are saved by God’s grace. It is our love for God that causes us to have faith, and how do we show our faith? We do it by our actions.

Even James said in his Epistles.
James Chapter 2 Verse 16-26:

16: and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17: So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18: But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder.
20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25: And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Second, we are judge by our actions during judgement day not by faith. When the Son of Man comes in glorify, he will say to the Right, "Come good and faithful servant. Enter the kingdom of heaven. For I was hungry, you feed me, when I was thirsty, you gave me drink, when I was naked, you clothed me,… " The servant said, "Lord, when did I feed you, offer you drink, clothed you?’

"When you do this to the least of my brethrens you did it to me "

We don’t do these corporal works for mercy to earn our way to heaven. We do what Jesus commanded us because we love him. Because Jesus said, “If you love me, obey my commandments.” That is everything that he taught us.

The doctrine of Sola Fide implies laziness and that all you need is have faith in God and do nothing at all. To me, Sola Fide cheapens Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection on the cross. It is not taught by the Apostles or their successors. Jesus doesn’t even teaches it.

Sola Fide came out of the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s.