Why I rejected Sola Scriptura

[BobCatholic]

SPOKENWORD:

You see I know I belong to the fold because Jesus has drawn me in.Jesus has opened the gate. I now can come in through Him. I hear His voice and He calls me by name.There is one flock and one sheperd and his name is Jesus Christ. Praise God!!

How do you know this has occurred? (not that I’m doubting what you are saying!)

Now, in this one flock of Christ, are dissenting or differing doctrines permitted or is there only one set doctrines?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

SPOKENWORD:

You see I know I belong to the fold because Jesus has drawn me in.Jesus has opened the gate. I now can come in through Him. I hear His voice and He calls me by name.There is one flock and one sheperd and his name is Jesus Christ. Praise God!!

Just to be sure I’m understanding you correctly…every believer is in this “one fold” regardless of what they believe. Is that right?

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If so, then one of two things must be true:

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1) Doctrine does not matter
2) It is acceptable for there to be conflicting and contradictory doctrine in this one flock

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Which of these 2 do you believe to be true? Please provide your scriptural support for your choice.

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***If not, I misunderstood your position. Please help me understand where I’m misunderstanding you. Thanks! ***

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Just to be sure I’m understanding you correctly…every believer is in this “one fold” regardless of what they believe. Is that right?

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If so, then one of two things must be true:

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1) Doctrine does not matter
2) It is acceptable for there to be conflicting and contradictory doctrine in this one flock

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Which of these 2 do you believe to be true? Please provide your scriptural support for your choice.

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***If not, I misunderstood your position. Please help me understand where I’m misunderstanding you. Thanks! ***

I really cannot speak for any other believer. I can only speak for myself. Satan was a believer. Is he part of the fold.?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

BobCatholic:

How do you know this has occurred? (not that I’m doubting what you are saying!)

Now, in this one flock of Christ, are dissenting or differing doctrines permitted or is there only one set doctrines?

BOB, You are doubting what im saying otherwise you would not ask for you would know what im saying.Many of these words are from the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.Do you doubt what HE says? Gods doctrines are correct. Its our understanding of them that is the problem. Do we have them all correct? That is what we are shooting for. .

 

[BobCatholic]

SPOKENWORD:

BOB, You are doubting what im saying otherwise you would not ask for you would know what im saying.

Interesting.

OK, then I’ll say that you believe what you believe is true, but how do I know what you believe is true?

In other words, how do I verify that this has happened to you?

Many of these words are from the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.Do you doubt what HE says?

Of couse I don’t doubt!

Gods doctrines are correct.

Yes, they are correct.
So how to determine which interpretation of scripture is the correct one amongst the thousands?

Its our understanding of them that is the problem. Do we have them all correct? That is what we are shooting for. .

Here’s the problem: According to your theology, Exodus 4 and Revelation 22 prohibit adding or subtracting to God’s word.

If one inadvertently does this, are they in trouble with God?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

SPOKENWORD:

I really cannot speak for any other believer. I can only speak for myself. Satan was a believer. Is he part of the fold.?

No, he wasn’t. I was using the term “believer” as synonymous with “Christian”. In light of that, just replace “believer” with “Christian” in my previous post before answering the question. Thanks!

God bless!
***Nancy * **

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

SPOKENWORD:

Gods doctrines are correct. Its our understanding of them that is the problem. Do we have them all correct? That is what we are shooting for. .

That raises a good question. Is it possible to be infallibley certain that one’s understanding of God’s doctrines are correct?

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If so, how?

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***If not, why? ***

 

[go_Leafs_go]

he hasn’t answered any of the questions directly, because he see’s where he is wrong in his thinking, which is ok, but spokenword should at least admit it.

 

[BobCatholic]

go Leafs go:

he hasn’t answered any of the questions directly, because he see’s where he is wrong in his thinking, which is ok, but spokenword should at least admit it.

I know Spokenword from another forum and he’s a really nice guy. I don’t think he’s playing games here. I’m not sure he could answer some of these tough questions we are asking him, but assigns the answers to the questions as a part of faith without actually having an answer.

In other words “faith” has some blindness in it. The thing is: Faith is supposed to help us SEE better not be more blind.

Remember? We walk by faith, not by sight? (The faith helps us see what eyes don’t) What was that scripture? “ye claim ye see but yet ye are blind?”

This is the big hole in Spokenword’s way of thinking.

Faith and reason are the wings that help us FLY toward God. Can’t have one or the other alone.

 

[RNRobert]

Kinsman:

I don’t argue nor promote any Denomination. That’s why you’ll never see me mention one. I’m a Biblicist, I trust in God’s Word. I study it as well as read the scholarly writings of others. Yup…even some Roman Catholics. I am born again, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and He illuminates His truth to me through these personal efforts. His Word has always pointed me to the Person and work of Jesus Christ, never away from Him. I exalt Him, never any church.

If I may ask, what church, if any do you attend? Just curious.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

go Leafs go:

he hasn’t answered any of the questions directly, because he see’s where he is wrong in his thinking, which is ok, but spokenword should at least admit it.

What would you like me to admit?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Originally Posted by Kinsman
I don’t argue nor promote any Denomination. That’s why you’ll never see me mention one. I’m a Biblicist, I trust in God’s Word. I study it as well as read the scholarly writings of others. Yup…even some Roman Catholics. I am born again, regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and He illuminates His truth to me through these personal efforts. His Word has always pointed me to the Person and work of Jesus Christ, never away from Him. I exalt Him, never any church.
I’m trying to make sure I’m understanding you correctly. God reveals His absolute truth to you personally and individually?

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***If so, how can you be infallibley certain? Does scripture support this idea? ***

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If not, how am I misunderstanding you?

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God bless!
***Nancy ***

 

[BobCatholic]

Kinsman:

I’m a Biblicist, I trust in God’s Word. I study it as well as read the scholarly writings of others.

So which one of the thousands of interpretations is the one that 100% corresponds to the Apostolic Interpretation of Scripture? (According to SS, that was lost)

 

[SPOKENWORD]

BobCatholic:

I know Spokenword from another forum and he’s a really nice guy. I don’t think he’s playing games here. I’m not sure he could answer some of these tough questions we are asking him, but assigns the answers to the questions as a part of faith without actually having an answer.

In other words “faith” has some blindness in it. The thing is: Faith is supposed to help us SEE better not be more blind.

Remember? We walk by faith, not by sight? (The faith helps us see what eyes don’t) What was that scripture? “ye claim ye see but yet ye are blind?”

This is the big hole in Spokenword’s way of thinking.

Faith and reason are the wings that help us FLY toward God. Can’t have one or the other alone.

Thanks Bob for the compliment. I never claimed to know it all. I am still learning.I know God meets us where we are. The more I get of Him the more wisdom and understanding I will recieve.

 

[BobCatholic]

SPOKENWORD:

Thanks Bob for the compliment. I never claimed to know it all.

You’re welcome. I never claimed one is required to know it all

I am still learning.I know God meets us where we are. The more I get of Him the more wisdom and understanding I will recieve.

We are all progressing toward God as best as we can (with the help of His grace, we can do it!)

The issue is: How do we test whether we are in agreement with Apostolic Interpretation of Scripture? If it was lost, basically speaking, there’s no way to do it.

Now, if we went back 1,950 years, we could ask the Apostles. If we went back 1,900 years, we could ask those who learned from the Apostles. Even if we didn’t know everything about our faith, we can be sure what little we DID know was 100% correctly interpreted by the Apostles.

But today?

 

[Sherlock]

Kinsman,

You wrote: “Your problem is still is with the Word of God - you simply refuse to believe it.”

As I mentioned previously, telling me what I do or do not believe is not an assessment that you can make. Arguments that are based on your subjective and uninformed judgements of strangers are seriously flawed, and in making those judgements you tell me more about the inadequacies of your position (if your position was strong you wouldn’t have to resort to this), and your ego (apparently you possess God-like abilities to read minds and hearts), than anything else. I do believe the Word of God. Of course, the real problem is that I just don’t interpret it the way you do. That may make one of us right and the other wrong, but has no bearing whatsoever on the existence of your belief or mine: I am quite willing to accept that you believe the Word of God, even though your interpretation of it differs from mine, unless you tell me that you don’t. So stop being childish—don’t tell me what you cannot possibly know (the contents of my mind and heart), and stick to what you can reasonably know as an intelligent human being.

You wrote: “In the Bible purification of sins is accomplished not in a place, but a Person, through the once for all time propitiatory blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.”

Oh? Then why does Christ to require us to pray, “…and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors,” which he explained is required because “if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” So, forgiveness is conditional, here at least, upon our exterior actions (forgiving others) even if they aren’t necessarily related to our own personal sins.

I think you are conflating “forgiveness of sins” with “reparation (penance) of sins”. Let me illustrate it this way: if I break my neighbor’s window deliberately, I have sinned against him. To set things straight with him, I will have to admit my guilt and apologize sincerely. Let’s say, because he’s a nice guy, that he forgives me. However, the window is still broken, and simple justice requires that I fix it. This is a simple illustration of the Vatican ll passage you gave (what document, by the way?).

You wrote: “She did NOT reach her conclusion from her interpretation of the Scriptures, and certainly not an exegetical study of them. Scripture is VERY clear on this issue. She simply doesn’t want to believe it, no matter what it says. She can’t handle it.”

Ah, playing God again, I see.

You wrote: “No big deal here (of course you may have taken him out of context, you admit to only lingering a while on that station).”

You’re missing the point of this example, and the previous one. How very convenient…My point is not the specific doctrine that is in each of the examples I gave you, but I use those examples to point out a larger problem. Here it is, so please pay attention: All of the examples I gave you have something in common—good, sincere, Bible-believing people cannot agree on what the Bible says, even on matters important to one’s salvation, and even among those who regard it as the sole source of authority. That is a problem, as it relativizes truth. Sola Scriptura is not supported by the Scriptures, and it is certainly not supported by the testimony of history.

You wrote: “This is not an argument against “Sola Scriptura.” That people won’t accept what God clearly reveals in His Word doesn’t discredit its ultimate authority. Men have rebelled against God’s Word since the Garden of Eden.”

Ahh. How convenient. Scripture is so clear, at least to you! So those who disagree with your interpretation are merely refusing to accept God’s Word. Tell me, where is your authority to determine this to be found in the Bible?

 

[BobCatholic]

Sherlock:

Kinsman,
and your ego (apparently you possess God-like abilities to read minds and hearts), than anything else. I do believe the Word of God. Of course, the real problem is that I just don’t interpret it the way you do.

That’s the rub: Kinsman confuses his interpretation of scripture with the scripture he is interpreting. HE THINKS IT IS THE SAME EXACT THING! Of course, it is not the same thing.

And then he’ll probably say “I’m not interpreting scripture!”

Kinsman has to answer the question: “Am I personally infallible?”
The answer is no.

 

[bob]

Kinsman:

It specficially states it (2 Tim. 3:16-17). We know it’s accurate because we have literally thousands of copies to compare. There’s no higher authority on earth than God’s written Word.

2 Tim 3:16-17 states, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

The operative word here is “useful”. It does not mean “ultimate”, “alone” or only.

A text book is “useful” for teaching in a class. But it is NOT THE ONLY source of teaching.

Not a single copy of the “thousands” is original handwritten text. So all we have are either copies or translations.

Does the Scripture say which of those copies or translations are without errors?

Who selected the right copies of scriptures to be accepted as inspired? Why did the Church reject these books below as apocryphal? Did the Scriptures say they were?

Epistle of Barnabas
First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
Second Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
The letter of the Smyrnaeans or the Martyrdom of Polycarp
The Shepherd of Hermas
The Book of Enoch
Gospel of Thomas (140-170 AD)
The Psalms of Solomon
The Odes of Solomon
The Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs
Second Baruch
Third Baruch
The Books of Adam and Eve
etc.

Basically where does scripture say which books are inspired and which are not?

The confusion was sorted out by the Church instituted by Christ.

By the way we are all still anxiously awaiting your answers to BobRobert’s 4 infamous questions.

You seem to have a ready answer for everything except those. Care to explain why?

 

[Kinsman]

Chapter and verse please. Thanks!

2 Tim. 3:16. The Greek for “inspired” is theopneustos, “God-breathed.” They’re the very words of God Himself. There is no higher authority than God God’s Word (cf. Heb. 6:13). It’s quite simple my friend.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

2 Tim. 3:16. The Greek for “inspired” is theopneustos, “God-breathed.” They’re the very words of God Himself. There is no higher authority than God God’s Word (cf. Heb. 6:13). It’s quite simple my friend.

That sounds good to me.

So that the man of God may be FULLY competent and EQUIPED for every good work.