Why I'm Almost Convinced Catholosism is Wrong:

[MrZetterlund]

I really admire the Catholic faith and unity, however, I must get answers to these objecctions before I could ever “swim the Tiber,” (I think is what it’s called.)

1: Most Catholics believe that the Pope in inherent and is the succesor of Peter. But Peter certainly wasn’t inherent. He denied Christ three times.

2: Catholics see Baptism as a promise that a child will be raised in the faith. But in the Bible it’s a public confession of faith.

3: Catholics kiss the toe of a statue of Peter, don’t they? And pray to Mary, and kiss the Pope’s ring, ect. How can this not be viewed as idolatry?

Forgive me if I come across as a little persistant, but I can’t really acomplish much if I don’t ask.

 

[jmcrae]

I really admire the Catholic faith and unity, however, I must get answers to these objecctions before I could ever “swim the Tiber,” (I think is what it’s called.)

1: Most Catholics believe that the Pope in inherent and is the succesor of Peter. But Peter certainly wasn’t inherent. He denied Christ three times.

Where are you getting this?

I think the word you might be looking for is “inerrant”? If so, then no - we don’t believe that the Pope is “inerrant” - we believe that, under certain conditions, when he is summarizing a teaching of the Church that is required for us to believe, he is infallible - but we certainly don’t think that everything he utters is without error, nor that he is without sin.

2: Catholics see Baptism as a promise that a child will be raised in the faith. But in the Bible it’s a public confession of faith.

We see Baptism as the washing away of Original sin and any actual sin that may be present (in the case of adults). Baptism is always a public ceremony that takes place in the Church in the presence of witnesses. The Rite of Baptism for Infants contains a line in which the parents declare that they will teach their child to practice the Catholic faith into which he is being baptized.

3: Catholics kiss the toe of a statue of Peter, don’t they? And pray to Mary, and kiss the Pope’s ring, ect. How can this not be viewed as idolatry?

Uh - because it isn’t. “Idolotry” would be to believe that a statue of Peter, or that Mary in Heaven, or that the Pope’s ring is actually our Creator. We don’t believe that. A person might kiss a statue of Peter because they are thinking loving thoughts about him, just as, if you have to travel a long distance away from your children, you might kiss a picture of one of your children. It’s just an affectionate gesture. Same with kissing the Pope’s ring, for those who do that - they are just expressing affection for the Pope. We are, after all, required to love one another as Christ loved us - this is the greatest Commandment. So, there’s nothing the matter with a bit of kissing, in this context.

As far as “praying to Mary” it’s not really all that different than talking to a good friend. We don’t think that Mary is actually God, but we know that God loves her more than He loves anyone else, because of her more perfect obedience. We also love her, and we ask her to pray for us, and we praise her for her virtues, just as one might ask a favour of one’s mother, or praise one’s mother for her virtues. We are grateful to Mary for bringing us Jesus, as a human being like ourselves, and our Brother. And if we say that Jesus is our Brother, then surely His mother is also our mother, too.

 

[Convert66]

Jmcrae did a nice job in answering. I’d just like to add something that helped me with the whole “Mary” issue. It takes the form of a philosophical proof based upon Scripture itself:

1. Jesus was Jewish and fulfilled the Law,
2. Honor your mother and father, which is the first commandment with promise;
3. Jesus Christ; the same yesterday, today and forever; therefore,
4. Jesus still honors his Mother and Father.

“Follow me…”

All my best…

 

[JRKH]

I really admire the Catholic faith and unity, however, I must get answers to these objecctions before I could ever “swim the Tiber,” (I think is what it’s called.)

Hope we can help

1: Most Catholics believe that the Pope in inherent and is the succesor of Peter. But Peter certainly wasn’t inherent. He denied Christ three times.

Do you mean “inerrant” as in he cannot make a mistake?
If so, I suggest you not go by “Most catholics” believe, but go by what the Church actually teaches on this.
The Pope cannot err when speaking ex cathedra (sp?) or speaking from the chair of Peter, on matters of faith and morals. He certanly could make a mistake on picking the “final four” in basketball

2: Catholics see Baptism as a promise that a child will be raised in the faith. But in the Bible it’s a public confession of faith.

It is both. In the case of infant baptism the family is making the profession for the Child. Inherrant in this profession is the promise by both the parents and Godparents to raise the Child in the faith. Later this is “confirmed” when the Child renews his baptismal vows and is confirmed in The Church.

3: Catholics kiss the toe of a statue of Peter, don’t they? And pray to Mary, and kiss the Pope’s ring, ect. How can this not be viewed as idolatry?

If catholics believed tehy were actually kissing Peters toe, or some such then yes it would be Idolotry. However Kissing such as this would be no different than if a protestant were to Kiss the Bible. (Something that Harry S. Truman did when he was innaugerated President).
As for praying to Mary, This is mostly asking for intercession and if one is uncomfortable with this one need not do it. There is no Church requirement to pray to saints.

Forgive me if I come across as a little persistant, but I can’t really acomplish much if I don’t ask.

Not problem - keep asking. Such questions help all of us.

Peace
James

 

[Mark77]

MrZetterlund, you wrote;

“Most Catholics believe that the Pope in inherent and is the succesor of Peter. But Peter certainly wasn’t inherent. He denied Christ three times.”

**As a Baptist i’m sure you believe in Sacred Scripture! Read your KJV Bible verses Jn 21:15-19, where Jesus makes Peter chief shepherd of his flock! Jesus asks Peter 3 times to “feed my sheep/lambs!”

Catholic Answers has several tracts to read here catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp**

**Peter’s name always heads the list of the Apostles, Peter’s name is mentioned 191 times in the New Testament, which is far more than all of the other Apostles combined, (about 130 times).

Read Sacred Scripture, in it’s entirety, Peter is involved in all of the Church’s important “firsts”; Peter led the meeting which elected the first successor to an Apostle (Acts 1:13-26), and received the first converts(Acts 2:41), Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3:6-7), inflicted the first punishment on Annais and Saphria (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic, Simon the magician (Acts 8:21), Peter is the first Apostle to raise someone from the dead (Acts 9:36-41), Peter first received the revelation to admit gentiles into the Church(Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48)
**

No Catholics believes the Pope is “Inherent”, or inerrant, only Infallible when teaching on matters of Faith & Morals.

Information on Infallibility here; catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Musician]

This is the right place to come if you are in confusion over Catholic teachings. There are lots of answers here!
We don’t worship statues, or Mary, or anyone but God. We do show reverence for saints by talking to them and asking them to pray for us. It doesn’t matter if they are in heaven or here on earth: they can still see us and pray for us. Don’t you want all the prayers you can get?
Kissing the Pope’s ring just shows respect for his position as Vicar of Rome. It doesn’t mean we think the Pope is God.
The Pope does not err when he speaks “ex cathedra”; that is, on doctrines of faith. That is because he is led by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will never lead us astray. Of course, the Pope is a human like you or me. Did you know that the Pope himself goes to Confession?
About baptism: Catholics see baptism as a Holy Sacrament, not just a symbol or a confession of faith. In New Testament times, entire households were baptized. What makes you think that somehow children/babies were excluded? It just wouldn’t make sense to exclude children from that blessing.
Bless you. I am so glad you are here and asking interesting questions. Feel free to ask whatever you want!

 

[OraLabora]

We don’t pray to Mary. We pray through Mary.

Look at the words of the Ave Maria, and Marian antiphons after Compline:

Ave Maria: “Pray for us poor sinners”. We are exhorting Mary to carry our prayers to her Son;

Alma Redemptoris Mater: “peccatorum miserere” (“Have pity on us poor sinners”, and implied: petition your Son for us);

Ave Regina Caelorum: “et pro nobis, Christum exora” (“and for us, exhort Christ”)

Regina Caeli: “ora pro nobis Deum…” (“pray to God for us”).

Mary, who was without Original Sin, was assumed into Heaven, where she is with Jesus, and thus can hear our prayers and bring them to Him. Asking her to pray for us is not entirely different than asking a good friend to pray for us when we are in need, but of course, Mary, is closer to Jesus and able to bring Him our petitions directly.

Just a sampling.

 

[OraLabora]

The Pope: Mark77 says it pretty much all, I would add that the thrice denial of Christ only shows to illustrate Peter’s humanity. The Pope is not impeccable, only infallible on matters of faith and morals. That he let Christ down in his hour of need only underscores his humanity. I believe that this was deliberately shown so that we avoid deifying Peter and thus fall into idolatry. Christ entrusted His Church into the hands of humans who are sinners.

As a Baptist you probably have a reverential attachment to Saint Paul and his writings. Don’t forget that he not only denied Christ but also persecuted His followers! Yet that does not take away the authoritative nature of his teachings. Similarly, Peter’s humanity does not take away his authoritative leadership of Christ’s Church.

 

[Doc_Keele]

We don’t pray to Mary. We pray through Mary.

I know what you’re saying, but when I tried convincing people in a Carmelite discussion group that we shouldn’t use the term “praying to Mary” I was met with quite strong opposition!
We asking her to interceed for us is how I understand it. The term “pray” suggests rightly or wrongly to most Protestants that we treat Mary as God.

 

[camerong]

I know what you’re saying, but when I tried convincing people in a Carmelite discussion group that we shouldn’t use the term “praying to Mary” I was met with quite strong opposition!
We asking her to interceed for us is how I understand it. The term “pray” suggests rightly or wrongly to most Protestants that we treat Mary as God.

This is a good practical point, and one that Catholics should keep in mind, especially around non-Catholics. Of course, I’m not sure Catholics should be bound by what ex-Catholic sects of Christianity (i.e. branches of Western Christianity which broke from the Church) have essentially forgotten about the faith. In 1100 AD, no Christians would make the mistake that we are treating Mary or Peter or the Pope as God or a god. I doubt even that Luther would have made this mistake (unless his understanding of Catholicism was very shallow indeed). We have remained consistent. It hardly seems that we ought to modify our phrases because others have modified theirs.

That said, I agree that Catholics should be specific around non-Catholics so as not to cause confusion. I imagine there have been many who have stayed out of the Church because of misconceptions about Mary or other saints.

 

[OraLabora]

Humorous anecdote, a bit OT.

Last October I was a delegate to the Oblate’s World Congress in Rome. The talks, and question periods after each presenter, were done through simultaneous translation into French, English, Italian, Spanish and German.

At one point in question period a delegate got up and made a comment in French that “we venerate the Virgin Mary”. However the translator got it wrong, and translated that into English as “we worship the Virgin Mary”. I was listening in French as that is my first language. I couldn’t figure out why there was such an outcry of booing and hissing in the crowd.

Nor could the delegate who made the comment, a fellow I had befriended and he was as puzzled as I until an American delegate chastised him for saying that we “worship” the Virgin Mary. He told the American that he said no such thing (and he was right, I heard in French “nous vénérons la Vierge Marie”). Some Americans and other Anglophones were downright hostile to the poor fellow.

Finally he asked the conference organizer if he could say a word or two at lunch, so he got on the PA and made an announcement that he did not say “worship” but indeed say “venerate” and the error was due to a mistranslation by the translator.

I understand that there is a huge doctrinal difference but I could not understand the hostility shown the poor guy.

I wonder how many diplomatic crises were caused by similar mistranslations?

 

[Doc_Keele]

MrZ - as a convert myself, when I was still in the stage of considering joining the Church, I anticipated that I would find it difficult to accept “the Mary thing”, but once I understood the actual position on Mary (rather than my misunderstandings about Mary’s position) it wasn’t a big issue at all.

 

[Newbie2]

I know what you’re saying, but when I tried convincing people in a Carmelite discussion group that we shouldn’t use the term “praying to Mary” I was met with quite strong opposition!
We asking her to interceed for us is how I understand it. The term “pray” suggests rightly or wrongly to most Protestants that we treat Mary as God.

Absolutely.

The penitential rite perhaps puts it better:

“…and I ask blessed Mary, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God”

 

[kage_ar]

Heck, I’d not want to belong to a church that believed those things either - that is why I am Catholic!

 

[1ke]

1: Most Catholics believe that the Pope in inherent and is the succesor of Peter. But Peter certainly wasn’t inherent. He denied Christ three times.

Perhaps you mean inerrant? If so, the Church doesn’t teach that the Pope is inerrant. Nor does the Church teach that a Pope will not have moral failings, as Peter did.

The Church teaches that the Pope is infallible when defining doctrine on faith and morals. It is a specific charism protecting the Pope ex cathedra and the Bishops in total from teaching error.

It does not protect them from being wrong about other things.

2: Catholics see Baptism as a promise that a child will be raised in the faith. But in the Bible it’s a public confession of faith.

You have an inaccurate understanding of what Baptism is and does. When infants are baptized, yes their parents are presenting them and making a pledge to teach their child the faith. But Baptism itself is a sacrament. It infuses us with sanctifying grace, remits original sin and personal sin, and incorporates us into the Kingdom of God. It is not merely a promise, it does what it signifies: washes our souls.

3: Catholics kiss the toe of a statue of Peter, don’t they?

No.

And pray to Mary,

There’s a great article on this website (go to www.catholic.com) regarding the correct understanding of the Communion of Saints and our relationship to those already in Heaven.

and kiss the Pope’s ring, ect. How can this not be viewed as idolatry?

And curtsey to the Queen of England. No, showing respect is not idolatry.

Idolatry is replacing God with another god or gods. The Pope is not God and no Catholic is confused about this.

Forgive me if I come across as a little persistant, but I can’t really acomplish much if I don’t ask.

Have you read the Catechism? Your questions come across as one who hasn’t really studied the topic at hand before asking. You have pronounced the Church “wrong” about these three things, and yet you have not accurately articulated the Church’s teaching on any of these three.

 

[1ke]

I know what you’re saying, but when I tried convincing people in a Carmelite discussion group that we shouldn’t use the term “praying to Mary” I was met with quite strong opposition!
We asking her to interceed for us is how I understand it. The term “pray” suggests rightly or wrongly to most Protestants that we treat Mary as God.

The English word “pray” has several definitions. Protestants only use one of them, the one related to God. The more general meaning of “pray” (to **ask **or entreat) is ignored entirely by most Protestants.

1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

So don’t think you have to skirt around the issue. Of course Catholics pray to Mary. We don’t mean by that what Protestants try to impose upon the word “pray.”

 

[Doc_Keele]

The English word “pray” has several definitions. Protestants only use one of them, the one related to God. The more general meaning of “pray” (to **ask **or entreat) is ignored entirely by most Protestants.

1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

So don’t think you have to skirt around the issue. Of course Catholics pray to Mary. We don’t mean by that what Protestants try to impose upon the word “pray.”

Yes, good course of action:thumbsup:
Never mind that we turn off people, we should use the language we want to use regardless:thumbsup:
Nice bit of intellectual snobbery thrown in as well

 

[po18guy]

1: Most Catholics believe that the Pope in inherent and is the succesor of Peter. But Peter certainly wasn’t inherent. He denied Christ three times.

“But,(Peter), when you have turned, strengthen your brothers” This is a prophecy of Jesus in scripture, and is true, correct? (Luke 22:32). Peter is the only Apostle in scripture to affirm his love of Jesus three times (John 21:15-17), the fulfillment of that prophecy.

As to the chair of Peter, Jesus also said to listen to and do what the Pharisees teach, since they inhabited the “seat of Moses” (the words of our Lord in Matthew 23:2-3). Jesus said not to do what they do, as they were hypocrites. Others have answered well about when the pope speaks infallibly. Notice that neither John Paul II nor Benedict XVI has ever spoken infallibly. The proof of infallibility is not when it is used, but when it is not used.

2: Catholics see Baptism as a promise that a child will be raised in the faith. But in the Bible it’s a public confession of faith.

Catholics see the Sacrament of Baptism as a regeneration of the soul and entry into the Body of Christ. Since we believe that there is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, Baptism is meaningless unless one is raised up in and remains in the true faith. Baptism is the promise of God not of man. We must then follow up on God’s promise and not treat it lightly.

3: Catholics kiss the toe of a statue of Peter, don’t they? And pray to Mary, and kiss the Pope’s ring, ect. How can this not be viewed as idolatry? Forgive me if I come across as a little persistant, but I can’t really acomplish much if I don’t ask.

Do you idolize your wife by kissing her? Of course not! You love her, respect her, but do not worship her. Catholics kiss out of love and repsect, not worship. Saint Paul taught us to greet one another with a holy kiss (Romans 16:16, 1 Corinthians 16:20, 2 Corinthians 13:12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:26). Kisses were, and are holy, and are not to be given without meaning. That is why Jesus was so affronted by Judas’ kiss (Luke 22:48) Did Saint Paul teach idolatry? Certainly not!

Worship belongs to God alone. Love and respect we show to one another. As to the use of objects (sacramentals) in our faith, they are also in the bible. Think of this: In Acts 5:15, Peter’s shadow, used with faith, caused healing! Handkerchiefs and aprons touched to Paul and used with faith brought healing and cast out demons! (Acts 19:11-12) Was this idolatry? Certainly not!

 

[po18guy]

Yes, good course of action:thumbsup:
Never mind that we turn off people, we should use the language we want to use regardless:thumbsup:
Nice bit of intellectual snobbery thrown in as well

Question: Does your particular faith tradition hold to the Apostle’s creed?

 

[MrZetterlund]

Hm, well thanks for the clear up, guys. Though I must admit, I’m still hung up on infant Baptism And for one more (name removed by moderator)ut for this post, I’d just like to say that I LOLed when I read this post:

MrZetterlund, you wrote;

“Most Catholics believe that the Pope in inherent and is the succesor of Peter. But Peter certainly wasn’t inherent. He denied Christ three times.”

As a Baptist i’m sure you believe in Sacred Scripture! Read your KJV Bible verses Jn 21:15-19, where Jesus…