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Mickey
Guest
It is posts such as this that motivate people to run to the nearest Catholic or Orthodox Church! :yup:
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Philthy
Guest
Stick to what is clear from your search: Protestantism is an “error” - and make a move either way - to move forward in obedience to God. It does not mean that you have made the perfect move, only that you have made a faithful move away from the “errors” you previously embraced.
iambicpen:
You are equivocating with irrelevencies. Why should you entertain thoughts about Catholics who attend church grudgingly? That is a cop out. What you need to contemplate is simply this: from your search (which revealed errors of Protestantism) would God be more pleased with you worshipping in either the Catholic (or Orthodox) Church or would it be better to do nothing and remain where you are? You started out insinuating that the result of your searching to date showed that either move (Catholic or Orthodox) was an improvement, yet now you seem to be choosing to do nothing rather than embracing either choice? This is a classic example of the “perfect being the enemy of the good” where your zeal for the “perfect” choice leads to the exclusion of 2 good choices, which leads you to actually choose the lessor choice: remaining where you are.
Let me ask you a question that is more relevent to your situation: Is God more pleased with you remaining where you are (now that you know it is not where you belong) or would He be more pleased with a move - in faith - away from where you are despite a few remaining reservations?
iambic pen:
The funny thing is, that is exactly what you HAVE chosen. You have chosen to remain in the “error” of a Protestant church despite knowing that you don’t agree with it!And, that being said, I cannot join the Church unless I am convinced of all its teachings.
Thanks! God bless!
C
Contarini
Guest
In the absence of clear light otherwise, we have a sacred duty to remain where God has placed us. Otherwise we are engaging in an arrogant, individualistic search for truth that will not suit us to be faithful adherents of any orthodox Christian church.
Your assumption that staying where we are is just as much a “choice” as moving is an illogical assumption. It is on a par (for illogic, not for immorality of course) with Peter Singer’s belief that failing to attend to the needs of some person halfway across the world is just as bad as actively harming someone we actually meet.
In Christ,
Edwin
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Hesychios
Guest
Good, well written points, thanks.
In the absence of any clear light otherwise, bloom where you’re planted and shine the light of orthodox Truth about you. This is what I believe C.S. Lewis found he had to do.
This is not to be preferred to movement toward the more obviously True, but it may be the best one can do in the circumstances. Light a path that others may also proceed.
Michael
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The_Iambic_Pen
Guest
Joseph Smith: I thank you for your participation in this thread! As you may have read, I myself am not fully convinced of the truth of every Catholic teaching. However, my studies have shown me that much of what I used to believe about Catholicism turned out to be false. I hope your time on this board is very educational and useful.
As I said before, I am actively studying Catholicism and Orthodoxy, attending Mass and Divine Liturgy at their churches, and trying to discern the will of God. If you see these as the actions of someone who has chosen to remain Protestant, then I am a bit confused, and I do not know quite how to respond.
It is my understanding that to become Catholic, I would have to say that I believe everything the Catholic Church teaches. I believe it is the same way for the Orthodox Church. Now, since I am still trying to discern the truth and have not made up my mind, I could not make such a statement. To do so would be to lie to God Himself. I truly fail to see how lying to God is preferable to holding off on making a decision.
So, at this point, I cannot simply say, “Well, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are both better than Protestantism, so I might as well flip a coin and join one.” It would not be honest, as I said. I need to make an informed decision.
Thanks to Contarini for explaining my position so well.
God bless you all and thank you for your participation in this thread!
Okay. And as soon as I believe I know which way God is telling me forward is, I will step in that direction.
Sigh…I should point out that I’m not remaining anywhere. I have been actively studying Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, attending Mass and Divine Liturgy in their churches, and trying to discern the will of God. I have already left the harbor of Protestantism, and I’m at sea trying to find the harbor of my true home.
And yet a decision has to be made. I can’t make a move until I know which direction the move should be. If I’m standing at a crossroads, I can’t just step forward. I have to choose a path.
Sigh…again…I have not remained in any Protestant church, nor am I choosing to be Protestant. The fact that I am trying to choose between Catholicism and Orthodoxy does not mean I am still a Protestant by default. I am searching for the true Church, and the fact that I have not found it yet does not mean I have given up the search. Nor does the fact that I have not yet found the truth mean that I am deliberately choosing falsehood.
As I said before, I am actively studying Catholicism and Orthodoxy, attending Mass and Divine Liturgy at their churches, and trying to discern the will of God. If you see these as the actions of someone who has chosen to remain Protestant, then I am a bit confused, and I do not know quite how to respond.
It is my understanding that to become Catholic, I would have to say that I believe everything the Catholic Church teaches. I believe it is the same way for the Orthodox Church. Now, since I am still trying to discern the truth and have not made up my mind, I could not make such a statement. To do so would be to lie to God Himself. I truly fail to see how lying to God is preferable to holding off on making a decision.
So, at this point, I cannot simply say, “Well, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are both better than Protestantism, so I might as well flip a coin and join one.” It would not be honest, as I said. I need to make an informed decision.
Thanks to Contarini for explaining my position so well.
God bless you all and thank you for your participation in this thread!
P
Philthy
Guest
Hi Edwin. I misunderstood where Iambic Pen was - I thought he was still actively participating in the area Christianity (Protestant) which the “clear light” of reason had revealed was no longer acceptable for him. That is why I made the comments I did. I havent a clue what you mean by “where God has placed us”, BTW - it sounds like a thought for someone who simply needs to rest at night.
I disagree with your analogy.
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crosstimbers
Guest
I don’t disagree with you Edwin, but the light has gotten a LOT clearer for me in the past few months. In fact I would say it has become blinding! I would caution you though, against believing that because you are in a “good” (i.e.orthodox?) Episcopal parish you will never have to deal with the current controversies. I promise you, eventually you will.
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Contarini
Guest
Oh, I’m under no such illusion. It’s not that I don’t *yet *have to deal with them but rather that for the moment I no longer have to deal with them as immediately. The parish in NC where I was confirmed has now split, with the rector and many/most of the people joining one of the Continuing Churches. My parish in NJ (which I never officially joined because I was too uncertain about remaining Episcopalians) was much more liberal and the rector they called about a year before I moved was by my standards very liberal (though surprisingly orthodox in her basic preaching–perhaps this was just because she used deceptively orthodox language, but I got to know her well enough that I’m quite confident this was not the case). So the fact that I’m now (since the end of August) in a fairly conservative parish in a fairly conservative diocese is actually a new factor to be considered!
Edwin
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crosstimbers
Guest
Edwin,
How wonderful that you are in a good place. I wish you well on your journey.
Nancy
How wonderful that you are in a good place. I wish you well on your journey.
Nancy
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Legal_Eagle
Guest
Iambic:
I realize that this is a very simplistic response especially after having read some of the earlier excellent essays…but…have you tried simply relying on faith, prayer and the Holy Spirit ? I converted to Catholicism in '03, and when I converted I didn’t have all the answers either. I still don’t have all the answers. The fact of the matter is, I will never have all the answers. What do I have? Trust. Plain and simple.
I have read Scripture, works from the early Fathers, books, encyclicals, pamphlets, internet posts, went through RCIA, asked my parish priest a million questions, and on and on and on until I realized that I was not smart enough to figure it out. I just don’t have the mental faculties to do it. What did I have? Trust. I decided that I would trust Jesus and the Church. I took the plunge and have never been happier.
Do I still have questions? All the time. Do I seek the answers? You bet I do. I read and study and ask questions of people smarter than me, and then read and study some more. But in the end, I trust the Church. If answers come they come, if they don’t they don’t. I know I’ll never have all the answers, but I do have the Church.
Good luck, and God bless you.
I realize that this is a very simplistic response especially after having read some of the earlier excellent essays…but…have you tried simply relying on faith, prayer and the Holy Spirit ? I converted to Catholicism in '03, and when I converted I didn’t have all the answers either. I still don’t have all the answers. The fact of the matter is, I will never have all the answers. What do I have? Trust. Plain and simple.
I have read Scripture, works from the early Fathers, books, encyclicals, pamphlets, internet posts, went through RCIA, asked my parish priest a million questions, and on and on and on until I realized that I was not smart enough to figure it out. I just don’t have the mental faculties to do it. What did I have? Trust. I decided that I would trust Jesus and the Church. I took the plunge and have never been happier.
Do I still have questions? All the time. Do I seek the answers? You bet I do. I read and study and ask questions of people smarter than me, and then read and study some more. But in the end, I trust the Church. If answers come they come, if they don’t they don’t. I know I’ll never have all the answers, but I do have the Church.
Good luck, and God bless you.
T
toothdigger
Guest
Hi Iambic,
You echo many of my concerns. I also have been thinking that I would like to join the Roman Catholic Church (after spending a long weekend at an abbey) and experiencing Mass firsthand.
However, then I ran into obstacles:
Why can only Catholics participate in true communion when Jesus clearly says that without communion we do not belong to Him?
How can Mary be co-redemptrix when our God is a jealous God? and will not share glory with any other? How can Mary be without sin when the scripture clearly teaches that “no not one is without sin” except Jesus Christ?
And then, there are the Old Catholic and Eastern Orthodoxy claiming to be the part of the one true church and adding confusion.
I always believed that the one true church is the body of believers - all of us together under one Head, our Lord and Savior via the Holy Spirit.
I think Jesus is crying in Heaven looking down at us. I believe that those persons who recognize the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist have the obligation to take the Eucharist when offered.
The Mass is not just for Roman Catholics; it is for all true Christians. It is just unfortunate that so few Protestants ever attend a Mass and when they do, feel unaccepted and inadequate.
You echo many of my concerns. I also have been thinking that I would like to join the Roman Catholic Church (after spending a long weekend at an abbey) and experiencing Mass firsthand.
However, then I ran into obstacles:
Why can only Catholics participate in true communion when Jesus clearly says that without communion we do not belong to Him?
How can Mary be co-redemptrix when our God is a jealous God? and will not share glory with any other? How can Mary be without sin when the scripture clearly teaches that “no not one is without sin” except Jesus Christ?
And then, there are the Old Catholic and Eastern Orthodoxy claiming to be the part of the one true church and adding confusion.
I always believed that the one true church is the body of believers - all of us together under one Head, our Lord and Savior via the Holy Spirit.
I think Jesus is crying in Heaven looking down at us. I believe that those persons who recognize the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist have the obligation to take the Eucharist when offered.
The Mass is not just for Roman Catholics; it is for all true Christians. It is just unfortunate that so few Protestants ever attend a Mass and when they do, feel unaccepted and inadequate.
T
toothdigger
Guest
T
toothdigger
Guest
Hey there,
This is my issue as a non-Catholic (at this point): how can those non-Catholic Baptists be one with Christ if they are denied true Communion with the Lord? I think this is where the Roman Catholic Church has hit a wall - if Baptists who believe, really believe and follow the Lord, are “saved” then they also have an obligation and a right to participate in the Eucharist.
J
Janet_S
Guest
Here are some articles which may answer your questions:Hey there,
This is my issue as a non-Catholic (at this point): how can those non-Catholic Baptists be one with Christ if they are denied true Communion with the Lord? I think this is where the Roman Catholic Church has hit a wall - if Baptists who believe, really believe and follow the Lord, are “saved” then they also have an obligation and a right to participate in the Eucharist.
Why is Communion for Catholics only?
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302sbs.asp
Who can receive Communion?
catholic.com/library/who_can_receive_communion.asp
For the Catholic Church, Communion is a sign of unity. To share Communion with those outside of the unity of the Catholic Church would be a lie.
Greek Orthodox do not allow Catholics to receive Communion at their Church either, and our beliefs about the Eucharist are identical.
Also, until recently, there was no inter-denominational Communion among Protestants either. You received Communion only at your church. Only recently has inter-denominational Communion become popular.
Remember, you can receive the Holy Eucharist if you truly desire it. You must, though, become a Catholic first. Be patient though since all good things are worth the wait.
T
toothdigger
Guest
Hi Janet,
You know, I have read at least one of these articles and I understand the argument; I just happen to not agree with it.
I take the Holy Eucharist at an abbey with monks and priests at least once a week, and refrain from taking “communion” at my non-denominational church because this church does not recognize the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist.
I am declaring my unity with the entire Body of Christ (i.e. the Church) each time I take the Holy Eucharist.
This is my obligation: to obey the Lord.
Thanks for your kind thoughts, but I can not wait for the good things that are mine already.
F
fineca
Guest
You’re not Catholic but you’re receiving the Catholic Eucharist? Out of respect for the Body of Christ (both the Church and the Eucharist) you shouldn’t, going against the Church’s will on this point is going against the will of Christ, communion outside of Communion is a sacrilegious lie - someone doing such a thing is not declaring any unity or participation with the Body of Christ but their own egoism, setting themselves above the rules of God. It is the Church who has Christ’s promise, who hears you hears me, not individuals like you and me…so please respect the Church on this point , as you would respect marriage by not having intercourse before it even though you’d already have privately promised faithfulness and love…so please make an act of contrition and start receiving only when you’re Catholic.
J
Janet_S
Guest
Sorry, but you obey the Lord when you obey His Church. “He who hears you hears me.”
You are very foolish to disregard the counsel of the Church. I learned this lesson the hard way. Do you think you are smarter than the Church?
If you trust that the Church can give you the Body and Blood of Christ, why don’t you trust its instructions about the Eucharist?
Either become a Catholic or abstain from the Eucharist. You can’t have it both ways.
J
jmcrae
Guest
They also have the obligation and the right to become Catholics, but what are the chances of that ever happening?
No, they prefer to just pick and choose - they think it’s a cafeteria and that the variety of things are “choices”; they don’t realize that it’s a banquet, and we are supposed to partake of everything.
I have heard hundreds of Protestants say that they should be allowed to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, but in my whole life, I have only heard of two Protestants who thought they should be allowed to go to Confession and receive the Absolution first - and one of those was already discerning to become a Catholic in the RCIA process.
L
lunarknight
Guest
QUOTE]
- I am not convinced of the Catholic understanding of original sin, and its attendant teachings. Namely, that unbaptized infants may possibly be damned, or go to some alternate “in-between” state. The more positive phrasing of the new Catechism does not help much, as new teachings cannot contradict old teachings.
Hmmm… I remember a few moths ago Pope Benidict XVI once adressed the same thing, yet he announced that this belief is only a theological idea from Saint Augustine and have dennounced it from doctrine and has never been in doctrne. However, Im not really sure about this, but ill let you know where I have found this info…it’s just that I need to find it.
J
jbuttrey
Guest
What a Great Disscusion.
Two things:
The big mysteries like how much God works outside his church, no one may know. Therefore we all may be left without the complete answers to questions like the how the trinity works and infants dying without baptism, some said it well that part is trust for all of us.
I suggest no fellowship has these answers 100%.
What I humbly suggest is on the 20th centuries main issue the attack on family life the Pope has show why we need a Pope and how to lead against cultures trying to bury one of the principle morals of Christianity.
I place my alliegence with the Pope who has enought history and again has proven to have the actual leadership in truth on the family issue. This shows me the Pope has both the full authority of the holy spirit and reason, scripture and history behind him.
The next Pope after Benedict could get soft on birth control or abortion and I would instantly realize that we are leaderless. Check the others out on these issues.
Brother John
Two things:
The big mysteries like how much God works outside his church, no one may know. Therefore we all may be left without the complete answers to questions like the how the trinity works and infants dying without baptism, some said it well that part is trust for all of us.
I suggest no fellowship has these answers 100%.
What I humbly suggest is on the 20th centuries main issue the attack on family life the Pope has show why we need a Pope and how to lead against cultures trying to bury one of the principle morals of Christianity.
I place my alliegence with the Pope who has enought history and again has proven to have the actual leadership in truth on the family issue. This shows me the Pope has both the full authority of the holy spirit and reason, scripture and history behind him.
The next Pope after Benedict could get soft on birth control or abortion and I would instantly realize that we are leaderless. Check the others out on these issues.
Brother John
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