Why is artificial birth control usage so wrong?

[Corki]

As for Maguire, he is a professor of religious ethics not theology. He himself published in 2002 his letter refusing to sign the required mandatum. By not signing, he took himself out of the ranks of theology professors “in good standing”.

A matter of weeks ago… he was, according to university authorities, a professor of theology.

I took my info from his bio which was printed along with one of his articles. Perhaps he changed department or perhaps Marquette considers religious ethics as part of the theology department. It doesn’t matter. Without the mandatum from the bishop, he isn’t a theology professor in good standing.

Well, just a short time ago when Maguire called for the resignation of the pope over the coverup of child molestation and refusal to report such crimes to the authorities, Marquette officially declared that it disagreed with Maguire’s views but that it defended his right, “both as a private citizen and as a professor of theology” to express his opinions.

Yet another area in which he dissents. Not surprised.

But it’s not his views on contraception that matter, it is the behavior of the people of God.

It is his views on contraception and other things that puts him outside of the people of God, the Church. And that matters.

We use birth control and we receive the Eucharist.

That’s something to take up with your confessor.

The papal commission was right in 1966. This is the way things are.

The papal commission has been proved wrong over and over since 1966. The Pope was right. HV was right and has been prophetic beyond expectation. This is the way things are.

 

[Vezelay]

Another failed mantra used by dissenters like Vezelay is that doctrine has changed – they never can provide any evidence but parrot the soporific versus the infallible doctrine against contraception.

Doctrine has not changed??? evidence??? just stop and think. It used to be taught that there was no salvation outside the church. The faithful knew this could not be true, knowing there were people of good will, good faith, from many other religions, and, indeed, the church changed and abandoned this doctrine. The church taught that priests should be married and have families and half way through its history, it changed that doctrine and decided that priests could not marry, indeed, that they had to abandon their wives and children and give their property to the church. In the next decade or so the church will probably change back to its original doctrine saying that priests may marry. They will have to since there are not enough priests now and the situation will be more dire soon.

Martin Luther was right about having the Mass said in the vernacular. For hundreds of years the church resisted, insisting on Latin while every other christian church made the scripture understandable to the faithful. Finally, the church got smart after so many hundreds of years, and changed its position to having the Mass in the language people understood. Quite a change! Luther was also right about the sale of indulgences being immoral. The faithful knew this too. Finally the church got around to changing its teaching on the subject and stopped selling indulgences.

The church changed its teaching of the evils of democracy. Even 19th century Catholics knew this was a nutty doctrine. The faithful also rejected the earlier church exhortation to assassinate non-Catholic rulers. Finally the church changed its position on that.

The church changed its doctrines and ceased murdering people just because they were not Catholic. Think of what the Inquisition did. The church even burned Joan of Arc at the stake. Thank goodness the church changed its teachings.

Women were not allowed on the altar. The church changed a lot of doctrines. Today we have women and girls as Eucharistic ministers, lay readers, preachers, ushers, parish administrators (87% of US parishes have women administrators since there simply are not enough priests). There are women everywhere and eventually the teaching on women priests will change too since even with married men as priests, there won’t be enough.

I could go on and on. The church is constantly changing. What about limbo? and purgatory? By the way, there is nothing infallible about Humanae Vitae. You know that the pope must invoke the Doctrine of Infallibility when it is to be applied and he did not do that in 1968. No infallible teaching on contraception which is why most Catholics embrace normal family planning methods.

Do you really need to know what other changes the church has made???

 

[Abu]

Some mired in the evils of contraception show their hate of Christ and His Church. Vezelay has tried this stunt of “doctrinal contradictions” before and been demolished, but his war of lies against Christ and His Church continues.
Unable to justify the ravings of another dissenter, Maguire, to support the addiction, he jumps on his horse and rides wildly off in all directions at once.

Post #140:
Vezelay: There are many examples but usury is the most obvious.

Demolished. He quietly leaves it out of the most recent tirade.

Now he pontificates

Post #160: It used to be taught that there was no salvation outside the church.

Where ignorance is bliss ‘tis folly to be wise.
The first known teaching: Pope Clement I in early Church history in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145]. The teaching MEANS that WITHOUT the Church there is no salvation – ALL salvation comes through Christ’s Church. The meaning of the Latin *Extra *= “without”.

Post #138:

1. The rantings about assumed doctrinal errors of Christ’s Church shows that you have no idea whatsoever of the meaning of what is dogma and what is doctrine, and what is in the domain of governance. You have no idea of the difference between impeccability and infallibility, and therefore no idea of the history of the Catholic Church.
   For such lack of knowledge a one volume panorama, TRUMPH, The power and the Glory of the Catholic Church, by convert H.W. Crocker III, Proma Publishing, Forum, 2001, can be most helpful.
   For a detailed history, the prodigious work of Dr Warren Carroll, now up to five volumes with two more to come, A History of Christendom, is well worthwhile for the serious student or researcher, with an extensive bibliography. (Chistendom Publications, 1985 onwards).

 

[edwest2]

Artificial birth control methods are wrong and this has always been taught by the Church. This has not been changed. It is not up to individual Catholics to decide on their own that artificial birth control is OK. It’s not.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Corki]

Abu;6978136:

I could go on and on. The church is constantly changing. What about limbo? and purgatory? By the way, there is nothing infallible about Humanae Vitae. You know that the pope must invoke the Doctrine of Infallibility when it is to be applied and he did not do that in 1968. No infallible teaching on contraception which is why most Catholics embrace normal family planning methods.

Do you really need to know what other changes the church has made???

What about Purgatory?

Never mind. While I appreciate your passion, your post lacks any understanding of the difference between dogma, doctrine and discipline so it doesn’t make any sense to try to discuss changes as if they were all the same.

Let me go out on a limb here, however. Even IF we are all wrong and those people who believe HV is not infallible are right, guess what? It is still a sin to use artificial birth control - infallible or not! It is a sin to willfully disobey the lawful teaching of the Church, whether it be in matters of dogma, doctrine or even discipline. That is why the concept of sensus fidei doesn’t work under conditions of disobedience. The Sensus Fidei of the Church cannot operate through sin.

 

[Abu]

You quote Vezelay, not Abu, Corki.

Vezelay doesn’t know even that he can’t find anywhere that the Dogma (he thinks it’s a doctrine!!!) of papal infallibility “has to be invoked” for a doctrine to be infallible!

Have you ever met anyone so frightfully confused over everything?

 

[Corki]

You quote Vezelay, not Abu, Corki.

oops, I tried to do the quote for Vezelay and it’s too late to edit.

Vezelay doesn’t know even that he can’t find anywhere that the Dogma (he thinks it’s a doctrine!!!) of papal infallibility “has to be invoked” for a doctrine to be infallible!

Have you ever met anyone so frightfully confused over everything?

It is a bit of a frustrating discussion. Unfortunately, I meet people like this occassionally. They won’t accept any Church documents as authoritative but claim that there are “magic words” for infallibility.

 

[marie_bishop]

Yes, the truth is the truth and the truth is that the church cannot/will not have us “find our way” since we are not lost. We receive the sacraments with completely clear conscience. The church has been in error many times and has eventually apologized and changed its teachings and that will surely happen again. We, the people of God, are hopeful and we pray that the church leaders come to their senses. We are confident that they will as they have in the past. We are optimistic on this issue.

All forms of birth control are either a hazard to the women ie cancer cysts (even tubaligation) or cause abortion in the earliest stages of gestation. NFP allows the body to work naturally. Husbands must pray if feeling frustrated and that makes them better men. before the last 40 years we lived our lives in raising children to love and serve god. now we limit kids to max out pleasure. we look to holy mother church to guide us to heaven. while it is true liberal theology is out there it is church tridition that kept our churches full and our path to heaven our first concern. we lived without stuff but with lots of kids to love God and share with him in heaven. Men your wife and children should be first in your concerns not your satisfaction.

 

[Abu]

The arrogance of Maguire reflected in Vezelay’s mantras. The tyranny of contraception bedevils many who reject Christ for the tyranny of selfism.

From historian Dr. Jeff Mirus, of Catholic Culture, April 14, 2007:
Refusal of Correction
“When your school thinks, no matter what you say, that you may be another Thomas Aquinas, hubris is inevitable. If you think this is a harsh judgment, consider how Professor Maguire responded to the critique of the Doctrine Committee. It is “arrogant of the bishops,” said Maguire, “to claim a monopoly on insight into the Catholic community.” The bishops, of course, never mentioned “insight”. They well know the difference, as Maguire does not, between insight and Magisterium. In any case, calling the bishops arrogant for doing their job is, to reshape an old expression, precisely like the pot calling the saltshaker black.

“Maguire also resorted to the standard ploy used, at last count, by one hundred percent of all dissenting theologians criticized by the hierarchy in the last 50 years: he claims the bishops failed to engage his real concern. The self-portrait of a dissenting theologian always shows a misunderstood genius surrounded by authoritarian figures too stupid to understand the key issues. Maguire says his real concern was to suggest that, considering our planetary problems of war, ecological destruction and sexism, the bishops are too fixated on “pelvic” issues.

“In observing this gambit, one hopes Maguire is joking. His most recent book is entitled *Sacred Rights: The Case for Contraception and Abortion in World Religions *(2003). Even his response to the bishops is posted on the web site of The Religious Consultation on Population, Reproductive Health and Ethics, with which Maguire is affiliated. Indeed, Maguire clearly spends a far greater proportion of his professional time on the “pelvic” issues than do the United States bishops. Moreover, he fails utterly to make the important distinction between moral issues, on which the bishops have special competence, and prudential issues (such as peace initiatives and the environment), on which they do not.

“Speaking of distinctions, it really does seem that Maguire is incapable of making them, even with regard to his own discipline. The very thing that separates Christian theology from a purely natural reflection on human experience is its commitment to Revelation. Without Revelation, theology has no subject matter. Since God has provided not only Revelation but a mechanism by which it may be authoritatively understood, it becomes the task of the Catholic theologian to attempt to deepen our understanding and appreciation of precisely those matters which God and the Magisterium of His Church have guaranteed to be true. A theologian who rejects either the deposit of faith or the teaching authority established by God to conserve and protect it—or both—destroys his craft in one proverbial fell swoop.

“Daniel Maguire has removed in his own work the very reason for practicing theology in the first place. In this he appears to have been aided and abetted by the administration of Marquette University. As Maguire requires a license from his bishop to teach theology, one must wonder if he has been aided and abetted by one or more bishops. Moreover, Maguire is clearly a symptom of a far wider academic malaise. For this reason, it is a very good thing that the USCCB Committee on Doctrine took the step that it did.”
[My underlining].

 

[Vezelay]

All forms of birth control are either a hazard to the women ie cancer cysts (even tubaligation) or cause abortion in the earliest stages of gestation. NFP allows the body to work naturally. Husbands must pray if feeling frustrated and that makes them better men. before the last 40 years we lived our lives in raising children to love and serve god. now we limit kids to max out pleasure. we look to holy mother church to guide us to heaven. while it is true liberal theology is out there it is church tridition that kept our churches full and our path to heaven our first concern. we lived without stuff but with lots of kids to love God and share with him in heaven. Men your wife and children should be first in your concerns not your satisfaction.

Then why have Catholics in the US and throughout the world chosen to limited the size of their families to that of the rest of the population by using birth control? We love our children just as much as you do, I daresay.

As for hazards to women, pregnancies present the greatest number of problems, abortion the next highest, and birth control the lowest number of hazards. It makes sense, doesn’t it? The world is a healthier place for women when they are able to control their reproductive lives. Let us all work for a world that provides for planning families for the greatest benefits for children and for parents

 

[edwest2]

Then why have Catholics in the US and throughout the world chosen to limited the size of their families to that of the rest of the population by using birth control? We love our children just as much as you do, I daresay.

As for hazards to women, pregnancies present the greatest number of problems, abortion the next highest, and birth control the lowest number of hazards. It makes sense, doesn’t it? The world is a healthier place for women when they are able to control their reproductive lives. Let us all work for a world that provides for planning families for the greatest benefits for children and for parents

First of all, the world would be a lot better place if everyone abandoned the lie that they cannot control their own sexuality. Ask yourself. Who decides when you have sex? The State? The Church? You do. You are responsible.

Until false excuses are abandoned, then people will believe Artificial Birth Control is greater than their own minds. If the world is so modern and so intelligent, then why does it tell you What You Can and Cannot Do regarding your own sexuality? Abandon the false belief that you can’t control yourself. Abandon the false belief that your kids cannot control themselves either.

The Catholic Church has not abandoned her teachings. We need to be obedient. We need to avoid the falsehoods being spread by the world. And please do not listen to those who think that abandoning Church teaching is somehow better. It’s not.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Vezelay]

First of all, the world would be a lot better place if everyone abandoned the lie that they cannot control their own sexuality. Ask yourself. Who decides when you have sex? The State? The Church? You do. You are responsible.

Until false excuses are abandoned, then people will believe Artificial Birth Control is greater than their own minds. If the world is so modern and so intelligent, then why does it tell you What You Can and Cannot Do regarding your own sexuality? Abandon the false belief that you can’t control yourself. Abandon the false belief that your kids cannot control themselves either.

The Catholic Church has not abandoned her teachings. We need to be obedient. We need to avoid the falsehoods being spread by the world. And please do not listen to those who think that abandoning Church teaching is somehow better. It’s not.

God bless,
Ed

You have not answered the question: why have Catholics embraced contraception? You cannot deny that they have, more so in Italy than anywhere else.

Who is telling you what You Can and Cannot Do regarding your own sexuality??? The whole point is that we are free to choose how to plan our parenthood. I wouldn’t have it any other way and neither would the vast majority of Catholics

 

[bingbang]

First of all, the world would be a lot better place if everyone abandoned the lie that they cannot control their own sexuality. Ask yourself. Who decides when you have sex? The State? The Church? You do. You are responsible.

Until false excuses are abandoned, then people will believe Artificial Birth Control is greater than their own minds. If the world is so modern and so intelligent, then why does it tell you What You Can and Cannot Do regarding your own sexuality? Abandon the false belief that you can’t control yourself. Abandon the false belief that your kids cannot control themselves either.

The Catholic Church has not abandoned her teachings. We need to be obedient. We need to avoid the falsehoods being spread by the world. And please do not listen to those who think that abandoning Church teaching is somehow better. It’s not.

God bless,
Ed

Can people control their sexuality? Of course. Do most want to do so? No…and really why should you expect them to do so? This is especially true if they aren’t Catholic or even Christian. You shouldn’t try to enforce your morals on people that don’t believe in them.

 

[edwest2]

You have not answered the question: why have Catholics embraced contraception? You cannot deny that they have, more so in Italy than anywhere else.

Who is telling you what You Can and Cannot Do regarding your own sexuality??? The whole point is that we are free to choose how to plan our parenthood. I wouldn’t have it any other way and neither would the vast majority of Catholics

Catholics are not free to choose Artificial Birth Control. Period. End of story.

I am telling you that some People believe they have NO control over their own sexuality. Instead of controlling themselves, they have been led to believe they need a pill or something artificial. If you can think for yourself that should mean you can control how often you have sex.

How did this happen?.

1960 The FDA approves The Pill.

1967 The Pill becomes widely available. The Catholic Church moves to inform Catholics as to why it and other forms of Artificial Birth Control are forbidden.

1968 Humanae Vitae is issued by Pope Paul VI. However, in order to distract Catholics from the true meaning of love and family, the Hippies are sent in.

“Free love!”

“Don’t trust anyone over 30!” Priests, nuns. mom, dad. They don’t know anything.

The Sexual Revolution was about Sex, not Love.

In the 1970s, a small group of judges, lawyers and members of organized crime opened:

Adult Bookstores
Topless Bars
Strip Clubs

The makers of the Pill needed to offer the kind of sexual perversion that was required to tempt men and women away from true committed love.

Swinger magazines became available to give people easy access to fornication.

In seminaries, in the 1970s, prospective priests were falsely told that artificial birth control was a personal conscience matter.

Dissident theologians signed a letter denouncing Humanae Vitae and the Pope.

As the 1970s turned into the 1980s.

No-Fault Divorce.
Porn on cable.
TV and movies are beciming increasingly sexual and dysfunctional. Sue Ellen on Dallas drinking liquor straight from the bottele while driving. This would NEVER have been allowed just a few years ago.

1990s

Shock jocks
Rap
The internet. 24/7 porn.
Into the abyss.

It took 40 years to gradually poison the Body of Christ. Do you get that? I was there. No Catholics voted for topless bars or strip clubs or adult bookstores but they did not come into existence on their own. Do you understand? A great deal of time, money and legal effort was put into gradually turning America and the West into the hyper-sexualized societies we see today.

Catholics are not free to choose Artificial Birth Control.

God bless,
Ed

 

[murphjos]

Until false excuses are abandoned, then people will believe Artificial Birth Control is greater than their own minds. If the world is so modern and so intelligent, then why does it tell you What You Can and Cannot Do regarding your own sexuality? Abandon the false belief that you can’t control yourself. Abandon the false belief that your kids cannot control themselves either.

Well said Ed!

You have not answered the question: why have Catholics embraced contraception? You cannot deny that they have, more so in Italy than anywhere else.

Mainly because it is easy and it feels good and obedience to the Church hard. But also because secular society and media are a powerful influence on behavior and hammer the idea into every available head.

Vezelay, your stubborn disobedience does not show how enlightened you are. You are not a vanguard of the Church of tomorrow. You are giving into your human weakness, refusing the grace given to strengthen us in our obedience and playing directly into Satan’s hands. To make it worse you use your intelligence to attempt to lure others along the same path you follow. You know what our are faith requires and are simply being too stubborn and lazy to obey. Please stop hurting others reading this thread by giving them half reasoned excuses to persist in their own sin.

 

[FairyGirl]

Artificial birth control usage is so wrong because it can abort babies without the mother even knowing it.

 

[Corki]

Can people control their sexuality? Of course. Do most want to do so? **No…and really why should you expect them to do so? ** This is especially true if they aren’t Catholic or even Christian. You shouldn’t try to enforce your morals on people that don’t believe in them.

Timely comment. We expect people to exercise discipline in all parts of their lives. Prudence and self-control are considered virtues and not just by Christians. Did you listen to the readings at Mass yesterday? Discipline is put in place because God loves us.

Let me answer a question with a question. 40 years ago, people were proud to exercise self-control, not only in matters of sex but also in finances, pride, modesty, exercise, etc. Why is modern mad so weak when just over a generation ago, man had the ability to control their passions? Not perfectly, of course, but to listen to some people go on, in less than 2 generations, humans have become sex-adicts who can’t possibly be expected to exercise even a modest amount of self control. Why? Aren’t we supposed to be evolving as a society, not reverting to pre-historical values and behavior patterns?

 

[edwest2]

If you take a hammer and pound against a wall daily over a 40 year period, it will break into pieces even if it is 4 feet thick.

What did I hear in the late 1960s? “You know what the problem is with you Catholics? You’re sexually repressed!” What DID that mean? We were dating, we were getting engaged and we were getting married. Being pregnant was a joyful event! The father was happy. The mother to be was happy. Her friends threw her a baby shower.

Then, in 1973, the Supreme Court tells Americans, you have the right to kill your child in the womb.

And the radical feminists in the 1970s. What did they say? “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Gloria Steinem, founder of Ms. magazine. Yes, that’s where that word came from.

Men had to become the eternal enemy. They sowed seeds of suspicion and mistrust between men and women. Why? One reason was to make it easier for No-Fault Divorce in the 1980s. I saw plenty of classified ads like this: “No kids? $75 and you’re out. Call 800-DIVORCE.”

Marriage was Marketed as no longer for life. I met a guy who was about to get married in the 1980s, and already, this is what I heard, “Hey, if it doesn’t work out, we’ll just get divorced.” Already, people were accepting the ‘easy way out’ as if it was no big deal.

We were told we now had choices. But they were BAD choices. Yet some of us told ourselves that since it was legal it must be somehow OK.

God bless,
Ed

 

[choose_to_love]

veze: We are free to choose how to plan our parenthood

Almost, but not quite. We are certainly to exercise responsible parenthood, as outlined in HV, but the means of doing that are not up for debate.

Now, back to the questions which you have not addressed: you can find polls that indicate less than 50% of Catholics believe in the Real Presence. Can your understanding of the sensus fidelium permit the Real Presence to be defined away? If not, why not?

 

[Vezelay]

Catholics are not free to choose Artificial Birth Control. Period. End of story. QUOTE

CATHOLICS ARE FREE TO CHOOSE ARTIFICIAL BIRTH CONTROL AND THAT’S WHAT THEY/WE DO. PERIOD. END OF STORY. THE REST OF YOUR JIBBERISH ABOUT CONTROLLING SEXUALITY, ETC, IS JUST THAT, JIBBERISH. WHAT PLANET DO YOU LIVE ON?