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Hesychios
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Just a small point, but in Poland the church buildings (Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox alike) were turned over to the Latin Catholic church, not the Orthodox church.
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sidbrown
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But is it true that the names of the married candidates for the priesthood have to be submitted to Rome for approval on a case by case basis? Would this continue to be true, if there were a reunion of the Orthodox Churches with Rome?
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Hesychios
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The question assumes that the Orthodox would be somehow made to ‘fit in’ to the current Papal ecclesiastical structure, that is far from likely.
It is much more likely that the Vatican will have to learn a new ‘hands off’ approach to relating to sister churches, if it indeed wishes to share communion.
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In any case, this rule names of the married candidates for the priesthood have to be submitted to Rome] applies to a very small EC church (I believe only the Metropolia of Pittsburgh 99,380 souls as of 2004], not also the Ruthenians of Europe). The leadership of this small group has (in the past) seemed to work at differentiating itself from both the Orthodox and the UGCC, so it has done a lot of things it’s own way, this rule being a case in point. Currently that church is more of an exception, even among the EC, and it’s numbers are trending downward.
If I am not mistaken, the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara churches also formally adopted mandatory celibacy, and these show no signs of changing. That might be something they would have to work out with the Jacobite Orthodox of India before reconciliation, but we really cannot assume that a willingness to share communion, or even concelebrate, means that there would necessarily be a corporate merger in the offing.
It could mean “separate but equal” indefinitely.
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sidbrown
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So the current model of the Eastern Catholic Churches will have to be thrown out?
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Aramis
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Not, per se, thrown out, just not by default extended to the Orthodox churches. Some, like the Ruthenian Metropolia of Pittsburgh, are likely to remain in the uniate model.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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What makes you say this?
I could see after reunion with the Orthodox that the Ruthenian Metropolia of Pittsburgh may be willing to unite with an American Orthodox jurisdiction if the Orthodox ever accomplish this.
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Aramis
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The ACROD are still distinctly Rusyn; they are the only one which would be considered, really.
The MoP, however, is both very distinct in its liturgical and patrimonial approach as a body. This is exemplified by such things as requiring rome to approve married seminarians for ordination rather than simply saying “no” (or “yes”, for that matter), the revisions of the DL to new english translations (I expect a new spanish one will be the next major “crisis” of the MoP), and it’s still somewhat latinized, and quite staunch in supporting certain “Americanisms” and Latinzations, like the VDL, chairs, sitting during parts of the DL, distinctive melodies for the octoechos (both the 65 and the 2006…
If it were going to merge, it would likely be reabsorbed back into its parent UGCC/UOC, and that probably wouldn’t go over well with the hyper-patriots I’ve encountered in MoP parishes in 4 states, who love the fact that, aside from the pope, their entire hierarchy is American. And a forced merge would create yet another schism.
It is what it is. I love it, I cherish it, and I realize that it truly isn’t “Orthodox in Union with Rome”… but it is American, Byzantine, Catholic, Apostolic, and Sub-Petrine… and ever in flux… and that’s good enough for me.
When the time comes, I suspect that some of the ECCs will retain the Uniate mode, others will rejoin with their Parent &/or Cadet Orthodox churches, and it is likely one or two will be somewhere in between. For some, the divergence is sufficient that reunion on a corporate church level is akin to destruction; the MoP is such a one.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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There is a movement, not sure how big or realistic it is, to unite all Orthodox jurisdictions within the United States into one Orthodox Church.
As for a merge with the UGCC/UOC, that just seems a rather polite way to tell us Ruthenians that we are really Ukrainians. I believe this is something that Ukrainians really get upset over when the Russians tell them that they are really Russians and should reunite with them.
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malphono
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I seem to have heard something about this, spearheaded, as I recall, by the MP. If what I remember hearing is correct, it’s doubtful that Constantinope would be particularly amused. And rightly so.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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Why “and rightly so”?
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malphono
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Simply because the MP has this habit of throwing its weight around. The MP’s visit to Ukraine last year was a classic example of that. And Constantinople derives its position from a true Ecumenical Council. MP does not.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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So why wouldn’t Constantinople want an American Orthodox Church made up of all the current Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States?
There is an article in this month’s Newsmax magazine, the article is not on their website yet, I will continue to check for it though.
It is titled “Can the Orthodox Pray as One?”
It states that the heads of the worlds 14 self-governing Orthodox churches discussed this issue at their meeting last June in Switzerland and that they “expressed a desire to end what they called the ‘canonical anomaly’ of overlapping jurisdictions.”
Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA said, “There is an image of the church being completely of ethnic content, and we need to get beyond that. There is little difference between and Antiochian mission and a mission of the Orthodox Church in America or a Greek Orthodox mission. In order to exemplify the unity that underlines Orthodoxy, you need to have a single unified administration.”
It goes on to say that the 50 Orthodox bishops in North America plan to meet in May to discuss this.
I think Metropolitan Jonah is right.
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Aramis
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That’s precisely the problem; the consolidations would be seen as de-ethnicizing the particular churches.
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sidbrown
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What are the differences between Ukranians and Rusyns?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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And what is wrong with that? Should the focus of the Church be on ethnicity?
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Aramis
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The focus, no. But large parts of the secondary praxis of these churches is ethnic. Large parts of the identity is also ethnic. While not the focus, that which actively suppresses the expression of ethnic culture is a distraction that has, in the past, lead to schism.
It’s a balancing act. Where a particular church is strongly ethnic, as with the the Ethiopian or European Subcarpethians, that ethnicity is partly a church-based identity; destroying the ethnic identity of the church destroys part of their positive self-image, an image in part due to the autonomy of their Churches. In such cases, sublimation of their particular church, even if nothing else changed, would precipitate a crisis.
In others, where the identity has shifted from ethnic to nationalist (UOC, some parts of the UGCC, the MoP, OCA, several other Orthodox Churches), the major idenity has become nationalistic, rather than ethnic; again, dissolution of these into others is a perception problem on both sides, and in cases like the UGCC vs the Ruthenians, could be seen quite strongly as an attempt to eradicate Ruthenian Idenity, itself in part an amalgum of local ethnic groups, and itself church based. Many of those ethnic local groups are proudly “non-ukrainian”… despite almost no praxis differences in pirmary praxis, liturgical text, rubrics, etc.
So it’s not primary, but it’s definitely not going to serve anyone well to absorb them without great cosultations. When full communion exists, tho, it will matter less whether they are unified or not; unity of communion will mean the ability to ignore those human boundaries within the church, boundaries that are there for human comfort, nothing else.
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Hesychios
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The Rusyns never had a state of their own.
The region is probably about the size of Switzerland (give or take), but it has always been controled by others, and is currently divided between several states.
Pope John Paul II had stated that his mother was a “Rusin”, but that is often taken to mean Ukrainian (especially by Ukrainians). She may have been a Lemko (one of the Rusyn tribes of southern Poland), but I don’t know anyone who can state that with total conviction.
The area the Rusyns live in was once a mountainous eastern frontier of the Moravian empire. A strong case can be made for the Rusyns receiving Christianity from the missions to Moravia by SS Cyril and Methodios and I believe they feel the brothers passed through their homeland. The Rusyns probably suffered terribly when the Magyars blew through into the Hungarian plain but most likely had not been subjugated by the Scandinavian Rus who ranged up the rivers (and eventually founded the Kievan state). The Ukrainians trace their own conversion to the baptism of Grand Duke Volodymyr of Kiev about one hundred years later (988AD).
Both groups then, were converted into the same liturgical, theological, spiritual tradition, but from different directions and at different times. It seems (not sure about this) as though the Orthodox Rusyn-Ruthenians received their bishops through Romania and had Constantinople as their Patriarch, while the Orthodox Ukrainians received their bishops from Kiev while having had Constantinople as their Patriarch.
Liturgically, there are slight differences in local practice (to be expected). The Ruthenians have a strong tradition of congregational chant (although it seems to have taken hold less than 150 years ago, before which the cantor sang alone), and in the villages the two principal ministers would be the priest and the cantor. The Ukrainians have their own style of chant and I cannot comment on the rest, except to say that I think they have a much stronger choir tradition. (Also, Ukraine is a pretty big country comparatively speaking, so it is hard to generalize.)
I have noticed (when visiting) that the Rusyn-Ruthenian parishes almost always have a tetrapod before the Ambo, the Ukrainian parishes usually do not. Both use iconostasis. Otherwise there is not much to say about the interior spaces of the temples.
As to the history of these two groups in coming to the USA (their challenges and conflicts), you may wish to read Clash of the Titans. As I recall it is pretty informative.
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Diak
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It not been been the case in the UGCC in the USA since the appointment of +Constantine as the first Metropolitan. The married candidates for ordination are approved by the ordaining bishop and it goes no further.
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Diak
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This is somewhat off-topic, but needs to be responded to.
One can be as fervently and rabidly anti-nationalist as nationalist; the former rules for membership in the Greek Catholic Union (GCU, the American Carpatho-Rusyn Catholic fraternal organization) had a very specific exclusion not allowing any Ukrainians to join.
In Transcarpathia there is significant close cooperation between the Eparchy of Uzhorod and the UGCC; representatives are present at the Synod, and the UGCC has opened several monastic communities in that Eparchy. The UGCC liturgical books are used quite frequently there.
It does seem the passing of several generations along with the great changes in demographics since the 1970s have quieted the previous serious internal ethnic frictions in the BCC Metropolia between Slovaks, Hungarians, and the Transcarpathians.
This is a gross generalization. The UGCC has Eparchies in North and South America, Australia, Western Europe in addition to Eastern Europe. While there are certainly some nationalists in the parishes, and even amongst the clergy, the UGCC does not have a “nationalist identity”. I would also say that “praxis differences, liturgical text, rubrics, etc.” seem to also be growing with the newer texts in the BCC Metropolia perhaps straying further from the more shared usage the UGCC and BCC Metropolias had as per the stricter adherence to the Ordo Celebrationis.
One can be as fervently and rabidly anti-nationalist as nationalist; the former rules for membership in the Greek Catholic Union (GCU, the American Carpatho-Rusyn Catholic fraternal organization) had a very specific exclusion not allowing any Ukrainians to join.
In Transcarpathia there is significant close cooperation between the Eparchy of Uzhorod and the UGCC; representatives are present at the Synod, and the UGCC has opened several monastic communities in that Eparchy. The UGCC liturgical books are used quite frequently there.
It does seem the passing of several generations along with the great changes in demographics since the 1970s have quieted the previous serious internal ethnic frictions in the BCC Metropolia between Slovaks, Hungarians, and the Transcarpathians.
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sidbrown
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Thanks a lot for the information and the link to the book, which answers my questions on it.
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