Why is CIH so popular?

[ElToro]

Amazing really how something simple and mundane in the past evolved into a symbolic gesture in the present.

There is a discussion in the Eastern Catholic Forum about the origin of the waving of the aer (a cloth to cover the gifts of bread and wine) during the recitation of the Creed. Someone suggested that its origin was to wave off the flies away. But today it symbolizes the Holy Spirit descending on the gifts which will then be consecrated to become the Body and Blood of Christ.

So very true. When I set-up and serve Mass I prefer not only a small cruet full of cool water for mixing with the wine, I also prepare a much larger ewer of hot water to use for the lavabo. In years past potable water could be very scarce and it would not usually have been used for the washing of hands. I have read where there would have been two vessels used in ancient times (although such detail is certainly not required) so I maintain it.

Did you also know in some Eastern Divine Liturgies they pour hot water from a tiny pot – a zeon (about the size of a coffee creamer pot at a restaurant) in with the wine because Jesus’ Blood was of course warm and not cold? These details fascinate me – although one should not become obcessed with them.

 

[FAB]

I was simply correcting your comment. Practical reasons (dirty hands) is the genesis of the lavabo – not Temple rituals.

I just taught this. The use of the lavabo goes back to ritual cleansing of the rabbi before he entered into the Holy of Holies. At one time it may have had a practical reason, but we should not for forget our mass comes from Jewish roots.

 

[ElToro]

I just taught this. The use of the lavabo goes back to ritual cleansing of the rabbi before he entered into the Holy of Holies. At one time it may have had a practical reason, but we should not for forget our mass comes from Jewish roots.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has MANY roots – including pagan ones.

As written you were inferring that the lavabo derived from the Mosaic cleanliness laws and it did it. The lavabo was a product of a very practical need – the cleaning of dirty hands that had just handled a variety of gifts from the faithful.

 

[FAB]

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has MANY roots – including pagan ones.

As written you were inferring that the lavabo derived from the Mosaic cleanliness laws and it did it. The lavabo was a product of a very practical need – the cleaning of dirty hands that had just handled a variety of gifts from the faithful.

I don’t know of any peagan rites unless they came in through Jewish practices.
There is not disagrement between us as the development of the lavabo.
But just as the meaning that practice changed, so have the reason to be able to recieve communion in the hand.
99.99% of people come to the mass with clean bodies and hands, so the augument that only the preist should hold the Eucharist because of clean hands, doesn’t hold water, so to speak.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Did you also know in some Eastern Divine Liturgies they pour hot water from a tiny pot – a zeon (about the size of a coffee creamer pot at a restaurant) in with the wine because Jesus’ Blood was of course warm and not cold? These details fascinate me – although one should not become obcessed with them.

Yes. We do not do it normally though, I wonder if its because of a lack of servers and clergy. I will ask my priest about it. Although a visiting priest did do it once.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That’s absolutely not true. In fact Ruthenian particular law allows the use of male EMsHC in the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church if there is sufficient need (one EMHC per 75 communicants) and insufficient clergy available:

**Particular Law for the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church in the USA

Canon 709 §2**

§l. In cases of true necessity, deacons may distribute the Divine Eucharist.

§2. In the same cases, even minor clerics and members of the laity can be designated to distribute the Divine Eucharist.

 1o. A parish may have one person designated for this purpose plus another for each 75 communicants at the Liturgy.

byzcath.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=334

Its a sad departure from tradition. I mean, this is a particular Church that even reformed the Divine Liturgy of John Chrysostom, so I’m not surprised with this. The deacons of course can distribute communion if need be, because they are allowed to touch the Sacred Vessels. In fact it is their duty at certain points of the Liturgy to be performing Liturgical Acts with the vessels. They are also in charge of placing the Precious Body of our Lord into the chalice with the Precious Blood, prior to distribution to the faithful.

 

[ProVobis]

Lavabo is Psalm 25

An interesting take on the Lavabo is here.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Boy, this thread is all over the place!!

Hey ElToro, I am still waiting for a reply to post #87!

 

[ElToro]

Its a sad departure from tradition. I mean, this is a particular Church that even reformed the Divine Liturgy of John Chrysostom, so I’m not surprised with this. The deacons of course can distribute communion if need be, because they are allowed to touch the Sacred Vessels. In fact it is their duty at certain points of the Liturgy to be performing Liturgical Acts with the vessels. They are also in charge of placing the Precious Body of our Lord into the chalice with the Precious Blood, prior to distribution to the faithful.

The only reason I commented is because you said “In the Byzantine Rite its forbidden for lay people and even those in minor orders to touch the Sacred Vessels…” and that is just not true. Misinformation like that confuses people and it can lead them to form and pass-on erroneous opinions and beliefs that cause other problems.

 

[ElToro]

Boy, this thread is all over the place!!

Hey ElToro, I am still waiting for a reply to post #87!

You’re inferring that CIH makes it easier for those so inclined to steal consecrated hosts during Holy Communion. That’s simply not true. It’s plenty easy either way.

I noted the falsehood because some people repeat it in an attempt to justify their belief that the Church should end CIH or that COT is somehow superior to CIH from a security standpoint. That’s just nonsense.

I also cringe at even at the thought that passing on this falsehood might provide an artificial sense of security to some – all is well, we only allow COT here!

 

[ElToro]

Lavabo is Psalm 25

An interesting take on the Lavabo is here.

Washing one’s hand while celebrating the Mass did not come from Psalm 25/26…

 

[Oneofthewomen]

You’re inferring that CIH makes it easier for those so inclined to steal consecrated hosts during Holy Communion. That’s simply not true. It’s plenty easy either way.

I noted the falsehood because some people repeat it in an attempt to justify their belief that the Church should end CIH or that COT is somehow superior to CIH from a security standpoint. That’s just nonsense.

I also cringe at even at the thought that passing on this falsehood might provide an artificial sense of security to some – all is well, we only allow COT here!

Did you actually read what I wrote??

Did you miss that part where I said that if someone actually wants to steal the Eucharist, they will- no matter what the mode of reception is.

I am not inferring that it is easier, all I am saying is that CITH does pose new problems and calls for extra diligence. I don’t understand why you can’t accept this.

And FWIW- I receive in the hand.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The only reason I commented is because you said “In the Byzantine Rite its forbidden for lay people and even those in minor orders to touch the Sacred Vessels…” and that is just not true. Misinformation like that confuses people and it can lead them to form and pass-on erroneous opinions and beliefs that cause other problems.

That is not misinformation but the true tradition of the Byzantine Rite. If the Ruthenians in the US decide to depart from tradition, then its sad really. You will not find an Orthodox Church that will violate this tradition, and I’m glad at least in my Church for what I have seen so far, it is not violated as well (though given the rampant Latinizations, I wouldn’t be surprised really if there is a parish here and there that would).

I fully understand the Latin Church’s decision on EMHCs, given their large congregations. I don’t understand why an Eastern Church would resort to this in North America where the numbers are very few (unfortunately).

 

[ElToro]

That is not misinformation but the true tradition of the Byzantine Rite. If the Ruthenians in the US decide to depart from tradition, then its sad really. You will not find an Orthodox Church that will violate this tradition, and I’m glad at least in my Church for what I have seen so far, it is not violated as well (though given the rampant Latinizations, I wouldn’t be surprised really if there is a parish here and there that would).

No, that’s not true. I provided documentation from the Catholic Church to show your error and you refuse to accept it. According to documents from the Catholic Church, distributing Holy Communion by laymen is permissable if needed under well defined conditions within the Byzantine Ruthenian Church at least in the USA. You’re not the arbiter of “true tradition” – the Catholic Church is. Further I don’t care what the Orthodox State Churches allow and disallow. I care what the Catholic Church allows and disallows.

I fully understand the Latin Church’s decision on EMHCs, given their large congregations. I don’t understand why an Eastern Church would resort to this in North America where the numbers are very few (unfortunately).

We are talking about the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church, not the “Latin Church.” You may not undestand what the Catholic Church did in this case but that’s no reason to make comments that are inaccurate and misleading.