Why is everyone obsessed with Hell?

[tgGodsway]

Hell is for the devil and the unsaved. Getting saved changes the paradigm.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

There’s not such thing as “getting saved” in the way you are describing it. Salvation is a process and, until we’re dead and have given our final Yes or No to God, we are changeable creatures that can lose and regain our salvific grace.

 

[stpurl]

I’m actually surprised because quite frankly, in my parishes, in my relationships, in my direct contacts with people, etc., Hell is the last thing on their minds.

Maybe the reason that some on these forums are concerned about hell is that since they don’t hear about it normally and naturally (it IS one of the Four Last Things, after all), and then they come across it in discussion or reading, they simply cannot fathom how such a teaching was not something they were taught all along.

I mean, look at safety teachings. We start kids in preK (if not sooner, by parents) to practice safety awareness, to be on the watch for strangers, etc. etc. Now the majority of kids aren’t going to get complexes about this, but some will. We don’t stop the teachings, but we try to develop strategies to help those who have difficulty, because the teachings are important from the earliest years on. If you don’t ‘start young’, then it’s awfully difficult, developmentally, to suddenly tell say a 12 or 14 year old who has gotten on the Internet to ‘beware of strangers’. They will think, “Hah, treating me like a fool or a child. I know all about everything, I can handle it”. Par for the course for this age group.

So we have now two generations which didn’t get the right teachings, and so the parents never taught the youngsters, and now the youngsters are hearing and learning, and they don’t know how to react.

Instead of ignoring the hell fire queries, simple calm reiteration, positive (You don’t get sent to hell unwilling, you choose to be there), teaching how to examine one’s conscience, getting back the important of reconciliation, and unfortunately in today’s climate having to counter the terrible misinformation which has made sin ‘nonexistant’ to the ‘normal person’, needs to be done.

 

[tgGodsway]

Why would you disagree with the Apostle Paul who said, “For my grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.”?

Justification is an ACT
Sanctification is a PROCESS.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Why would you disagree with Paul, who says:

Phil 2:12

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Fear and trembling, and the call to continued obedience. If salvation was guaranteed at baptism, then there would be no need for either of these things.

I agree that there is a moment of Justification that occurs at baptism, but that justification is not immutable. If I sin mortally and do not repent, I will be damned. If I repent, and receive the sacrament of confession, I am once again placed in a state of grace, but that state can be lost again through further sin.

The only way to see justification as a one-time-only thing is to ignore large swaths of the New Testament.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Certain Protestant circles as well, have a reputation for having an obsession with the threat of hell. All of it is linked to a theology that places people in jeopardy of losing their salvation. This subject is not just a Catholic issue, it is a theological issue which became the thrust of the protestant reformation.

Just to share more of my experience, I grew up in a once-saved-always-saved belief system, so while they technically didn’t believe you could lose your salvation, the worry/obsession was that you never really “got saved” in the first place. I am sure some personality types never worried, but I suspect far more worried about than would admit it–certainly including myself.

 

[Tommy999]

Using the sports analogy that Father used earlier in the thread, I try to focus on loving and following the Lord with all my heart, soul, and strength, and treating others with respect and dignity as a positive (offensive) strategy. I try to balance that view with a healthy view of hell as a deterrent (defensive strategy).

My best guess is that some people who obsess with hell may have trouble with scruples and want to be certain they are on the right side of God’s judgement, or perhaps are not mature enough in the faith to focus on the positive yet, or perhaps would like to keep sinning as much as they can get away with and still remain on God’s good side. Just a guess.

 

[tgGodsway]

When Paul said, “work out your salvation…” was he talking about eternal salvation? if so, on what bases in the context of Phil. 2?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’d be looking to see if God provided any lifeboats.

Yeah, I’d be praying “Lord, Save Your People” while trying to find a way off the ship.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

grew up in a once-saved-always-saved belief system, so while they technically didn’t believe you could lose your salvation, the worry/obsession was that you never really “got saved” in the first place. I am sure some personality types never worried

That would be my husband. If he ever worried about possibly going to Hell, he never let on to me for even one second. In fact the last thing I said to him before he died was that he should worry less about getting the taxes done and more about his health and his Immortal Soul. He just grinned at me. Then he walked out, drove home and dropped dead. I hope he remembered what I said.

Of course, with my luck, and given that “the soul gets exactly what it expects from God” (St. Therese), God probably took him straight to Heaven. He probably did his Purgatory time on earth putting up with me.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

What other salvation would he have been talking about? What other salvation did he ever talk about???

Paul was concerned with one thing, and that was the salvation of souls. So yes, he was talking about eternal salvation

A much better instance of Paul refuting the notion that salvation cannot be lost is Romans 11:22:

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

It could not be clearer. Those who are, at one point, in friendship with God may lose that friendship through their disobedience.

 

[Lea101]

The younger generations of non denominational Christians usually leave the more organised forms of Christianity because of all the things they can’t do.

Aka they’re the ‘I’m spiritual, not religious generation’. They aren’t going around stealing and punching people because those are ‘obviously bad things’ but they’re out there having sex, abortions, etc because they believe they can do these things now without worrying about hell. Obviously not theologically and logically consistent, but that’s expected anyways.

So, what I’m getting from this is that people are obsessed with Hell because a lot of people have some fear or thought that they personally might end up there.

Yeah. I mean this isn’t particularly new insight because someone who’s so sure they’re going to heaven wouldn’t worry. My dad, as heavily flawed as he is, would constantly talk about how he’s definitely going to heaven. But really, hell is a possibility for all of us. There’s a reason why Catholics keep bringing up warfare and very ‘militant’ language.

It’s not fun, obviously. Not many people have their own relationship with God either, even though they’re trying. So the idea of not worrying about hell and following all these rules out of joy is pretty far fetched.

 

[tgGodsway]

Yes, I hear you. Your brand of Protestantism is called Puritan. It is a sister belief to the Arminian belief. In my opinion both of them have their roots in legalistic theology.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So, what I’m getting from this is that people are obsessed with Hell because a lot of people have some fear or thought that they personally might end up there.

I don’t terribly worry about Hell, especially since I quit doing grave sins. I honestly didn’t worry much about it when I was committing the grave sins. I was pretty confused and not thinking of what I was doing as a grave sin. I did have many discussions with God about it in an airport chapel that has been closed for a few years and asked him that if he thought I was really doing something wrong to let me know or get me out of it somehow. Guess he did.

In retrospect I see the sins were grave sins. But as I have already stopped doing them for years, repented and confessed, I don’t worry about getting sent to Hell over them.
Purgatory was more of a worry for me but I worked that out after a couple months.

 

[Lea101]

I honestly didn’t worry much about it when I was committing the grave sins. I was pretty confused and not thinking of what I was doing as a grave sin.

I was pretty much a joyful Christian because I didn’t know how serious my sins were. Ignorance was truly bliss for me. Sometimes I wish I didn’t join CAF and “learnt too much”.

 

[Genesis315]

It is a common and natural first step for those just starting out in the devout life. St. Catherine of Siena’s Dialogue has some good passages about this, calling fear of punishment as a first step “the ordinary call.” This fear is often what motivates a person to first rise up from sin toward the life of grace. It motivates us to cleanse our soul of sin, which gives us a peace of conscience that allows us to perceive and respond to those graces calling us to take the next step.

From there, with the help of God’s grace, we must take that second step toward love of virtue and love of God, where salvation is truly found.

 

[tgGodsway]

What other salvation would he have been talking about? What other salvation did he ever talk about???

To answer your question: With a simple word study of the word “Salvation” or “saved.” You will find out it is used in more than one context. The word also translates into the English word=deliver, to be delivered from one thing to another. An example of a non-eternal context is: Mt. 27:42 used in the context of a physical salvation.

“He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him come down from the cross and we will believe Him.” The Pharisees were criticizing because Jesus would not, or could not SAVE himself, Physically, from the cross." If only He would come down (physically) they would believe Him.

Another example is Matt. 8:25 when His disciples said, “… Lord save us! we are perishing.” The context decides what kind of salvation the disciples were talking about. In this case, again, a physical one in the storm.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I am aware of the distinction between salvation and saved linguistically. However, within the scope of Paul’s writings, the only salvation he ever speaks of is specifically eternal salvation.

Paul doesn’t seem to care one bit about his bodily salvation or that of his congregation. I think the one exception may be when he was shipwrecked, and he speaks of God saved him, there referring to his body, but that’s the only time.

In this passage (Phil), Paul is clearly discussing eternal salvation. In all of his letters, when he is addressing his congregation, salvation refers to eternal salivation.

You also completely ignored the passage from Romans.

Galatians 5:4 further refuted OSAS:

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

This passage is directed towards the Judaisers who tried to teach that it was necessary to still adhere to the OT Laws in order to be saved. He is speaking to people who have already been baptized, and therefore have justified through faith, but who are abandoning that justification by relying on the law.

In Corinthians 9:27 Paul himself even speaks of his fear that he will not be saved:

I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

You cannot use Paul to support OSAS without ignorant vast amounts of what he wrote. OSAS is bad theology that is leading people to Hell by making them think they don’t have to be concerned about their salvation.

 

[PetraG]

I was pretty much a joyful Christian because I didn’t know how serious my sins were. Ignorance was truly bliss for me. Sometimes I wish I didn’t join CAF and “learnt too much”.

Think about it this way: If you could go back to offending the Lord and not know it and you were certain you would be forgiven, you would still rather know what offends the Lord and what pleases Him and do that. If you want a relationship with God, ignorance is not bliss. If you want to love God and serve God you can hardly regret that you’re coming to know God better, even though you’ll drop in your own estimation in the process. The hardest truth is better than the most comfortable falsehood, after all!

As one Act of Contrition puts it:
O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because of Thy just punishments, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin.

The idea is to progress to the point that pleasing God is our main priority. Short of that, however, if we are motivated by avoiding punishment, at least we are learning the habits of virtue, which once we have established them are also their own reward, and avoiding doing more of the damage done by sin. It is a mistake to wait to act appropriately until we are doing it for the right reasons. If we act appropropiately out of an inferior motivation and only want to have the more fitting motivation, the actions themselves will push us in that direction naturally.

Those here who say that love of God and the positive desire to please God is a far superior motivation than the fear of suffering consequences because of the selfish desire to prefer comfort to discomfort are of course correct. If someone does good mainly to avoid Hell, that is a problem. Yes, they are missing the whole point. That is not sufficient reason to hide the reality of Hell from people, though. Our Lord did not do that.

 

[tgGodsway]

before I respond, what is OSAS?