Why is freedom a necessary attribute of a personal being?

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This idea of freedom creates problems when we consider that every human choice is ordered towards what appears to be good. All creatures pursue what appears to be good. There is not freedom to “decide what to want”. All evil results from the fact that God allows disobeying him to appear good to creatures. Persons consult their intellect to determine how to act. If the intellect contains warped or false knowledge, then the choice predictably produces evil. If a person is so disturbed to see disobeying God as better than obeying him, why would that person not act upon their conviction?

Choices come from motives. At least in theory, how the motives present themselves to the will could be used to predict a person’s action.
Well, materially, yes, every choice seems ordered to what appears to be good.
So your statement that choices come from motives also seems true, even for humans.
A “motive” would be a “force”, a “mover”.

An interesting thing about the “eye” (and the images forming in the brain from it). There is not a red light shining out of the eye to reflect back in order to see what is red. Red does not pre-exist in the eye, but the eye has potential for any color vibration of wavelengths of the visible spectrum, yet no pre-determined color present. So, it sees and forms images of any color passing through the lens.

It is similar with the soul. It is not a material reality and has no predisposition to know anything, any “body”, specifically, because if it did, then that would be like a filter or like the red light coming from the eye. Only what it was programmed to know could it know, just as the eye would only see red if it were built to shine a red light to enable its seeing.

If we were sitting at PC’s side by side and typing, I would sense two sets of hands with my eyes (yours and mine), With my sight the hands would look similar, and if all I had were sight for sensing, I could not say, these are mine and those are yours. It is actually through reason, over time, that a soul comes to reason that it moves this body, and another soul (yours) would recognize it is moving that body, but not this body.

The soul is not part of material contingent reality, but is like an “onlooker” at material reality. And it happens that its window into material contingent reality is a specific sensitive body that it can move so as to “observe and use for understanding”. But the actual understanding does not dwell in the material body at all (to include the conscious thought). The material body is totally passive (moved by external material causes, and moved to physical actions by the soul’s powers - the will). The soul moves the body often in experimentation, to learn if what it know about material reality is truth or not. It moves the thoughts to form images of possibilities or the hands and feet to enact the possibilities. When the mouth speaks to another body’s ears, the soul is experimenting, in a way, to see if the other body has a soul that will know things from the symbols of the words that were moved to come out the mouth, waiting to see if movement happens in the other body and reply words return to its own body for sensing and knowing about the other body. I often talk to my dog, Sadie, this way, to see if somehow she understands me. And I receive no feedback - her soul does not move her body to indicate the knowing of what I asked her.

The thing is, the soul is not in the world as a moved object. Material reality cannot touch the soul, cannot perceive it, cannot harm it. If someone were to threaten or shoot me, they are shooting a body they perceive in proximity to themselves. And, while my soul knows the event, it is only my body that is wounded or killed. Only causation occurs in my body. My soul looks on, perhaps in a kind of sorrow because it has come to grow fond of knowing through this body. But now it continues separated from its instrument of knowing in material interaction.

I am not sure where I am going with this right now, but somehow want to indicate that our freedom is not freedom in the sense of altering material contingency. Material causation and perhaps a kind of determinism is real. But we have our knowing and moving component (soul) apart from the material happenings, for mainly doing non-material things (understanding and willing - knowing and loving), even though we effect these materially at present via our bodies.
 

… but somehow want to indicate that our freedom is not freedom in the sense of altering material contingency. Material causation and perhaps a kind of determinism is real. But we have our knowing and moving component (soul) apart from the material happenings, for mainly doing non-material things (understanding and willing - knowing and loving), even though we effect these materially at present via our bodies.
A little qualification to this - we do find our souls “interjecting” movement in material reality that is “new”, meaning movement that is not materially related to current movement states. For instance, my body may move to kneel and material words of prayer come from my mouth. That movement will have no material impact on anything material other than my own body, and the “recipient” of the words and of the posture is not material (the recipient being God). Yet, I move this body to this posture and words to objectify in material reality what is my soul’s understanding of itself (desiring to address God). And in doing this, my soul knows itself addressing God via its instrument of interaction with what is “other than the soul or self”. So, we do modify material reality by moving a body (our own) in the material reality.
 
Will and motive are intertwined. I don’t see what point you’re trying to make here. You don’t even consider the fact that such differences are even more proof of freedom (same proof that you continue to deny). A person is free to decide what he/she wants in response to what is presented in the immediate environment and even beyond that. Therefore, your presumption that is is all predetermined is false. You cannot 100% ‘predetermine’ how a person will respond to a given situation. That is freedom right there. So far, your definition of predetermination just keeps running its course. 🤷

Because really, if predetermination was solid, there wouldn’t any such thing called choice. Period! 👍

By your reasoning, the same accusation can be made on other commonly accepted doctrines about God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. After all, that is just the way God is too. 🤷

Seeing as how you can’t even guess what I’m eating for dinner and why, I’ll let the evidence speak for itself. 👍

And I’m telling you that’s not an argument against freedom. Take flaws in lock design. The moment someone finds the slightest opening in the mechanism, there will come a time when someone will exploit it. The moment you find a situation where choice diverges, you will find room for freedom. Just because you have no full control does not mean you have no control at all.

Another thing, ‘full responsibility’ is another subjective term. To what level should people hold themselves accountable before it’s considered ‘full’?

See, you never offer explanations for such nuances. You’re the one who just keeps insisting, “Read about the dilemma. Read about the dilemma.” That’s the problem with your dilemma staring right in your face. It’s completely ignorant of reality, specifically the reality that people still have a choice in response to their situations.

Everything you’ve posted so far doesn’t even diverge from the layman, Wikipedia definition of the dilemma. My response to you remains the same. Your dilemma is so out of touch with reality. 🤷

This is more evidence of freedom staring in your face yet you continue to deny. But to just be clear, I would also add that their being different is not completely the result of anything you call ‘predetermined.’

I’m happy to tell you that we humans are for more complicated than that. 👍
Unpredictability is not freedom. It is randomness.

When you honestly consider the dilemma of determinism, you will realize that there is no coherent explanation of how freedom exists and works.

Enjoy your sense of freedom. It isn’t necessary to explain any human action, but you can keep insisting that it is. I don’t see it from your assertions. Unless you can come up with a valid philosophical argument against the dilemma of determinism, stop using assertions. They don’t work.
 
Well, materially, yes, every choice seems ordered to what appears to be good.
So your statement that choices come from motives also seems true, even for humans.
A “motive” would be a “force”, a “mover”.

An interesting thing about the “eye” (and the images forming in the brain from it). There is not a red light shining out of the eye to reflect back in order to see what is red. Red does not pre-exist in the eye, but the eye has potential for any color vibration of wavelengths of the visible spectrum, yet no pre-determined color present. So, it sees and forms images of any color passing through the lens.

It is similar with the soul. It is not a material reality and has no predisposition to know anything, any “body”, specifically, because if it did, then that would be like a filter or like the red light coming from the eye. Only what it was programmed to know could it know, just as the eye would only see red if it were built to shine a red light to enable its seeing.

If we were sitting at PC’s side by side and typing, I would sense two sets of hands with my eyes (yours and mine), With my sight the hands would look similar, and if all I had were sight for sensing, I could not say, these are mine and those are yours. It is actually through reason, over time, that a soul comes to reason that it moves this body, and another soul (yours) would recognize it is moving that body, but not this body.

The soul is not part of material contingent reality, but is like an “onlooker” at material reality. And it happens that its window into material contingent reality is a specific sensitive body that it can move so as to “observe and use for understanding”. But the actual understanding does not dwell in the material body at all (to include the conscious thought). The material body is totally passive (moved by external material causes, and moved to physical actions by the soul’s powers - the will). The soul moves the body often in experimentation, to learn if what it know about material reality is truth or not. It moves the thoughts to form images of possibilities or the hands and feet to enact the possibilities. When the mouth speaks to another body’s ears, the soul is experimenting, in a way, to see if the other body has a soul that will know things from the symbols of the words that were moved to come out the mouth, waiting to see if movement happens in the other body and reply words return to its own body for sensing and knowing about the other body. I often talk to my dog, Sadie, this way, to see if somehow she understands me. And I receive no feedback - her soul does not move her body to indicate the knowing of what I asked her.

The thing is, the soul is not in the world as a moved object. Material reality cannot touch the soul, cannot perceive it, cannot harm it. If someone were to threaten or shoot me, they are shooting a body they perceive in proximity to themselves. And, while my soul knows the event, it is only my body that is wounded or killed. Only causation occurs in my body. My soul looks on, perhaps in a kind of sorrow because it has come to grow fond of knowing through this body. But now it continues separated from its instrument of knowing in material interaction.

I am not sure where I am going with this right now, but somehow want to indicate that our freedom is not freedom in the sense of altering material contingency. Material causation and perhaps a kind of determinism is real. But we have our knowing and moving component (soul) apart from the material happenings, for mainly doing non-material things (understanding and willing - knowing and loving), even though we effect these materially at present via our bodies.
You are basing this on the assumption that deterministic and indeterministic forms of causality only exist in the physical world. They exist in all of reality. For example, since God exists and God wants to create, then creation in some sense is necessary. Because of God’s disposition to create the world, saying that the world might not exist loses meaning.

The only understanding of the choice of the will would be a random choice, in which case, it is like I am watching myself make choices without being able to truly influence myself, which is very frustrating, since I don’t feel like I can really make a difference to myself.
 
Hmmm…
I guess I am not trying to make a difference to myself or make myself different. But I do things to make a difference for others, providing what they think they would be able to find from me (my wife expects an true husband, so I make choices that give her that, my puppy, Sadie, expects a true pack leader, so I do things to make her happy to be around me and make her relaxed, you are searching for understanding with regard to freedom and will, so I do things to somehow bring added dimension to your understanding, etc.)

But for myself, I am who I am. (while some might say that I work to choose not to sin or something like that, I actually work at finding out what God thinks is pleasing and then try to give him those things to “enhance his happiness” - if anyone can enhance God’s happiness…, I do not work at being different, but at pleasing the ones I love - being what they expect from me that only I can be for them).
 
Hmmm…
I guess I am not trying to make a difference to myself or make myself different. But I do things to make a difference for others, providing what they think they would be able to find from me (my wife expects an true husband, so I make choices that give her that, my puppy, Sadie, expects a true pack leader, so I do things to make her happy to be around me and make her relaxed, you are searching for understanding with regard to freedom and will, so I do things to somehow bring added dimension to your understanding, etc.)

But for myself, I am who I am. (while some might say that I work to choose not to sin or something like that, I actually work at finding out what God thinks is pleasing and then try to give him those things to “enhance his happiness” - if anyone can enhance God’s happiness…, I do not work at being different, but at pleasing the ones I love - being what they expect from me that only I can be for them).
This really doesn’t sound like freedom at all. It sounds like you just recognize your intrinsic goal of goodness and work to gain it.

Of course, this has gone really far without addressing my original question: Why must a person be free? Can’t a self-aware and God-aware entity exist without the capacity of random choice?
 
This really doesn’t sound like freedom at all. It sounds like you just recognize your intrinsic goal of goodness and work to gain it.

Of course, this has gone really far without addressing my original question: Why must a person be free?
Does free equate to freedom, or free will, or something else? There too much abiguity in the question to provide a definitive answer.
Can’t a self-aware and God-aware entity exist without the capacity of random choice?
What is a “random choice”? This sounds like an oxymoron.
 
Does free equate to freedom, or free will, or something else? There too much abiguity in the question to provide a definitive answer.

What is a “random choice”? This sounds like an oxymoron.
freedom = free will

A random choice is one that is not predetermined. The church insists that free will is not deterministic, so the only other option is indeterministic, which is random. Which of course doesn’t sound like freedom at all, but it is the only valid explanation of freedom then.
 
freedom = free will
This is not consistent with the dictionary definitions of these words nor is it consistent with the meanings used in Catholic teaching.
random choice is one that is not predetermined. The church insists that free will is not deterministic, so the only other option is indeterministic, which is random. Which of course doesn’t sound like freedom at all, but it is the only valid explanation of freedom then.
You left out self-determined from your dicotomy.
 
This is not consistent with the dictionary definitions of these words nor is it consistent with the meanings used in Catholic teaching.

You left out self-determined from your dicotomy.
Well, if you want to define “freedom” as acting towards the good, it does not affect whether or not one’s choice is predetermined.

Yes, because the “self” does not affect the chain of choice. The intellect receives knowledge from outside the self and then presents it to the will, which chooses according to what appears best. Thus, the intellect and will, which are part of the “self” in the chain of causality are both deterministic. Arguing that the choice of the will is not deterministic but indeterministic reduces it to a random chooser without a determined object.
 
Well, if you want to define “freedom” as acting towards the good, it does not affect whether or not one’s choice is predetermined.

Yes, because the “self” does not affect the chain of choice. The intellect receives knowledge from outside the self and then presents it to the will, which chooses according to what appears best. Thus, the intellect and will, which are part of the “self” in the chain of causality are both deterministic. Arguing that the choice of the will is not deterministic but indeterministic reduces it to a random chooser without a determined object.
How can self not affect the chain? It is the driving force for the choice.
 
How can self not affect the chain? It is the driving force for the choice.
The motives are the driving force for the choice.

And I am still waiting for a direct answer to my original question.
 
The motives are the driving force for the choice.

And I am still waiting for a direct answer to my original question.
“Personal” implies relationship of persons.
“Freedom” implies choice of relationship.
Without freedom of relating, there are only objects interacted with, not persons in relationship (relationships of love or hate of the person). When God was revealed as to being Personal (3 relating persons, actually), in that revelation inherently was the declaration that there is freedom. Before it was the “object called God”, with no freedom inherent in it in reference to us. And no need of wondering what, or if, freedom was real. But with Persons - freedom.
 
The motives are the driving force for the choice.

And I am still waiting for a direct answer to my original question.
Motives are (name removed by moderator)uts to the self. The will of the self is the chooser.
 
“Personal” implies relationship of persons.
“Freedom” implies choice of relationship.
Without freedom of relating, there are only objects interacted with, not persons in relationship (relationships of love or hate of the person). When God was revealed as to being Personal (3 relating persons, actually), in that revelation inherently was the declaration that there is freedom. Before it was the “object called God”, with no freedom inherent in it in reference to us. And no need of wondering what, or if, freedom was real. But with Persons - freedom.
No, I don’t think “personal relationships” are necessarily free. Persons can communicate freely or they can communicate out of necessity or instinct.
 
Motives are (name removed by moderator)uts to the self. The will of the self is the chooser.
The will is contingent upon motives. The will depends on the predetermined intellect to decide which motive is best. There is no room for freedom.
 
In my reading of the CCC, Aquinas, this forum, etc. I constantly come across arguments which assume that a person is necessarily free.

I cannot understand how a contingent being can ultimately determine its own actions from itself. It contradicts my understanding of causality in the spiritual and physical world. Since I have grown tired of repeating incessantly my position on this matter, I will redirect those reading this to look up the “dilemma of determinism”. This is the most significant problem with the idea of free will.

My understanding of what personhood entails, for a creature, is that it has an awareness of spiritual matters, including its own identity as a spiritual creature, having a spirit as part or all of its being, and an awareness of God.

The Church claims that a person has the capacity to act ultimately of its own accord, without the necessitation of its actions from external factors. (At least in some instances; you can’t will or will not for your heart to beat.)

How this can coexist with the dilemma of determinism, and why this is a necessary attribute of all persons, is beyond me.
God created human beings in his own image and likeness and since God has a free will so do human beings and this is why human beings have a free will, because God has one.
 
The will is contingent upon motives. The will depends on the predetermined intellect to decide which motive is best. There is no room for freedom.
The intellect moves the will not as an efficient cause but as an end moves an agent. The will is not predetermined to any one object the intellect can propose to it and the intellect can propose to the will a number of different objects or ends, for example, whether to will or not to will.
 
The intellect moves the will not as an efficient cause but as an end moves an agent. The will is not predetermined to any one object the intellect can propose to it and the intellect can propose to the will a number of different objects or ends, for example, whether to will or not to will.
This has not been shown to be true.

Again, this is not demonstrably true.
I have attempted to show you how I am correct way too many times. You simply cannot or will not see it. I give up on you.
 
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