Why is God against wealth so much anyway?

[TemplarKnight1]

Thank you.

This is not true. Money is a thing of this world. God has no care about “wealth” (as measured in money) one way or another. It is something of no interest to him at all.
What God is interested in is a person’s heart and soul. Where is his heart?

This gets into what would constitute “rich” - how it is measured and how it is used.

If a man has control of large sums of capital and uses it for the Glory of God, then he probably lives modestly himself. Instead, he employs his resources to the greatest benefit of his neighbor and community etc.
The Tax man might look at his “net worth” can call him wealthy. His neighbors might look at his lifestyle and figure he is “middle class”.

However - there are great temptations involved in having such control and many succumb to the temptations for big houses, cars, boats, expensive vacations etc. Things that do not utilize their resources to God’s greatest glory.

I have found nothing in Catholic teaching designed to make people with money feel “guilty” - It think that If guilt is engendered by the teaching on wealth it’s more likely to be one’s conscience being pricked by the Holy Spirit.

Not sure who you are referring to here - except maybe religious and they choose poverty not to lose something but to gain it. Too many “things” get in the way.

It really isn’t about how much money one has. It really isn’t.
One moves closer to God by getting rid of things that get in the way. Essentially these are spiritual things. Attachments to created things as well as faults in our character (greed pride etc.). The more a person overcomes these faults and attachments, their outlook changes. Wealth has no appeal to them.
Now such a person might feel called to a life of poverty or a person might feel called to giving a greater portion of their earnings to charity, or they might be called to raising up children in the faith or whatever…but the monetary aspect is not what it is about.

As I explained above…one CAN get closer to God without being poor…but the closer one gets to God…the less they will care about money.

The question is - how will you enjoy it…who benefits…and is it for the glory of God? Spending money is a good thing. When you buy something someone had to make that thing, someone shipped it, a merchant sold it to you. These are all beneficial things.
Investments likewise can be highly beneficial - providing capital to businesses to employ more people etc.
but it is not about the $$$ It’s about the heart.

Peace
James

 

[Monte_RCMS]

to get wealthy generally you want to become wealthy, rarely happens to you or is left from your parents.
If you worked hard for it to share with other people that have less, for watever reason they have less, it is our goal as christians. If we are capable more then our brother to survive we should give what is not necessary. Many don’t believe in it, but reading the act of apostols is clear.

In this world we have to survive to live in the next. many of us Christians and of course me among these we tend to live in this world with the aspiration of surviving to the next! Completely the contrary. This attitude revels that we belong to this world with no wish to excape from it.
Jesus help the lost ship that cries, but I don’t think run after a ship that is so happy to run away from him because it is amusing itself.

It is simple and clear. It has been said many times. It is not nice to ear it, but as stated you cannot be friend of this world and ogf God at the same time.

If you have an idea that people like and are willing to pay you for … or if you are able to make something that people are willing to buy from you … and if in doing those activities, you hire other people to help you with your work …

… then are you doing something that is against God?

Or are you performing a public service?

If we all gave everything away to those who do not work, then how will society feed itself? How will society advance if people do not work hard?

The measure of success in how we provide useful products and services is how much people are willing to pay four our products and services.

If no one buys our products and services, then we will not be of much help to anyone.

And if many people buy our products and services, then we can invest our profits profits are the difference between what it costs to provide the product or service versus what people pay us ] in our ideas to make more of what people want.

And then we can put more people to work and help more people.

 

[twoshoes]

I wish God would allow me to become wealthy. I can’t keep a job, I can’t make money in the stock market…ugh.

If you heart is on wealth then your mind is not on God as strongly as it should be, have faith in the Lord, he does provide.

 

[JRKH]

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. - (Matthew 6:24)

Note in the above, that it is not about the possession of money - but about “service” and who/what is your master.

Take that simple idea and follow the logic…If God is your master - that is - is one pursues God…then what role does mammon (money/wealth/possessions) play?
If mammon is the master - if one pursues wealth - then what role does God (following Christ) play?

Peace
James

 

[JamesATyler]

I’ve thought about this question many times as well. I think it basically boils down to this. If you are wealthy in this world then you are wealthy amid millions and millions of people who do not even have enough to eat. The wealthy person closes his mind and heart to them so that he can enjoy himself. He might throw some scraps to the poor here and there but he sets aside more than enough for himself. Else he would no longer be wealthy. The wealthy man makes a choice between himself and those that have nothing. This changes him into a selfish person. Such a selfish person that even those that are perishing from starvation do not motivate him to respond. His heart grows smaller.

The poor can do the same thing. Let’s take myself as an example. I do not pay for this internet connection. I pay a small amount for housing and food, car insurance, and my phone. I give about 30 dollars a month to charity. My clothes are old and I rarely buy things for myself but I still spend 20 dollars a month to play a mmorpg. In order for me to do this I know that I take that 20 dollars that could keep a child from starving and I blow it on a game. I’m just as guilty as a wealthy person of lacking love. I don’t care enough about that one child to deprive myself of a game. What makes it worse for a wealthy person is that he often would not deprive himself of anything if he were to give to the poor. He does not care enough for a starving child to even give unused cash.

 

[fred_conty]

James, good post.

 

[Stillness]

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. - (Matthew 6:24)

Note in the above, that it is not about the possession of money - but about “service” and who/what is your master.

Take that simple idea and follow the logic…If God is your master - that is - is one pursues God…then what role does mammon (money/wealth/possessions) play?
If mammon is the master - if one pursues wealth - then what role does God (following Christ) play?

Peace
James

Assuming I understand the Catholic position well enough, it would seem that the warnings against too much wealth are due to the danger of “decadence” to the body and mind. I am reminded of Elivs, heavily overweight, hopelessly addicted to drugs, and dead in his bathroom.

 

[JRKH]

Assuming I understand the Catholic position well enough, it would seem that the warnings against too much wealth are due to the danger of “decadence” to the body and mind. I am reminded of Elvis, heavily overweight, hopelessly addicted to drugs, and dead in his bathroom.

That certainly is a part of it. Not only is it bad for the body and the mind - but the spirit too.

Peace
James

 

[phmnh869]

???

:x :-*
__ C?m on __

 

[BobCatholic]

If you heart is on wealth then your mind is not on God as strongly as it should be, have faith in the Lord, he does provide.

My heart is on God.

But I’m not in heaven yet.

I have to survive SOMEHOW until I die right?

Can’t do that without money.

Last time I remember, I did not take a vow of poverty when I got married and was called to be a father later.

Last 12 years. I only worked 8. I’m not a criminal. I’m not lazy. I’m not incompetent. I just am cursed, and God does not want me to keep a job.

If I am forced to rob or steal to survive, God won’t like that. THAT is why I want to be wealthy, so that will never happen. I don’t love money. I see it only as a tool to survive until I die. Nothing more.

 

[twoshoes]

My heart is on God.

But I’m not in heaven yet.

I have to survive SOMEHOW until I die right?

Can’t do that without money.

Last time I remember, I did not take a vow of poverty when I got married and was called to be a father later.

Last 12 years. I only worked 8. I’m not a criminal. I’m not lazy. I’m not incompetent. I just am cursed, and God does not want me to keep a job.

If I am forced to rob or steal to survive, God won’t like that. THAT is why I want to be wealthy, so that will never happen. I don’t love money. I see it only as a tool to survive until I die. Nothing more.

I’m sorry for your misfortune, I wasn’t trying to be condescending to you. I guess I could have explained my position more clearly. I only meant that if your mind is only on making money that is a form of Idolitry, and should be avoided. God does help us in these matters if we ask, I believe. Some times not as we want, or in the time frame we expect, but he does answer.

 

[The_Blunt_Brig]

He’s not against wealth in itself. After all some official saints have been wealthy Kings and Queens (King David in the bible). He’s against having the wealth and spending it on amusements instead of helping the poor. And greed.

 

[manualman]

Do you KNOW many wealthy people that didn’t inherit it? I know and work for rather a few. The reason they get wealthy is usually that they have a good idea, work hard and ruthlessly stomp out their competition. Getting rich usually takes all three. The first two are virtuous. The last, not so much. It’s a complicated world and people are a funny mix of virtue and vice wherever you go. It’s not that the wealth itself is evil, but more often than not, those who manage to accumulate a lot of it in a lifetime have done so at significant expense of others. Just my opinion.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Do you KNOW many wealthy people that didn’t inherit it? I know and work for rather a few. The reason they get wealthy is usually that they have a good idea, work hard and ruthlessly stomp out their competition. Getting rich usually takes all three. The first two are virtuous. The last, not so much. It’s a complicated world and people are a funny mix of virtue and vice wherever you go. It’s not that the wealth itself is evil, but more often than not, those who manage to accumulate a lot of it in a lifetime have done so at significant expense of others. Just my opinion.

My experience that most really wealthy people own companies that they formed or reorganized / reformed ] that provide the goods and services that other people want and are willing to pay for.

So, in the process of providing goods and services to the millions, they employ tens of thousands of people and pay good wages and salaries and benefits.

When somebody comes along with a better idea, then the market flows to the newbie.

So, you had better compete or you are out.

Employees have the ability to change jobs if they don’t like it where they are.

You can go where the work is.

You can acquire new skills that are in demand.

The folks who had been accountants who did their ledgers in pen and ink gave way to computer programmers.

[In fact, originally a “computor” was person who operated a specialized adding machine called a “comptometer”. And systems analysts were people who figured out how the comptometer operator could do pages and pages of calculations for scientific and payroll and cost accounting purposes.]

Railroads and THE telephone company employed millions of people. But the nature of the work changed and new skills were needed.

Some very smart people got wealthy. And some not as smart people … didn’t.

 

[manualman]

And all that is fine and dandy. But my experience (mostly in land development) is different.

Not long ago, I declined a job offer from a company that had recently done some “cost cutting” that involved firing a 20 year veteran office assistant and promptly hiring a 20something replacement. The owner made millions last year.

Every successful contractor and land developer that I know that does significant work with government agencies ALSO makes sizeable campaign contributions to those in charge of making contractual decisions (and yes, low bid requirements CAN be circumvented easily).

I know a guy who recently had a great idea for a new material in the road building industry. No question he’s worked his behind off to make this a viable product. But he’s also greased bureacrats and politicians (none of which could I prove to a court of law, but know nonetheless) left and right to get his foot in the door for its use FIRST and design the approvals and regulations to favor his product over competitive innovations.

I’m not one to villainize the rich. Everything you say about them working hard is largely true. But there’s a dark side as well. Supply siders rarely admit it either. Wealth and success simply DOES bring with it the temptation to pride and idolatry of Mammon. I’ve seen enough miserable rich guys in my time that I’m pretty happy being middle class.

 

[jimmy]

I didn’t realize he was. My impression is that Abraham was pretty wealth, and he was considered pretty just.

 

[BobCatholic]

I’m sorry for your misfortune, I wasn’t trying to be condescending to you. I guess I could have explained my position more clearly. I only meant that if your mind is only on making money that is a form of Idolitry, and should be avoided. God does help us in these matters if we ask, I believe. Some times not as we want, or in the time frame we expect, but he does answer.

I know if my mind is only on making money that is a form of Idolitry, and should be avoided.

What I have trouble believing is that God cares about temporal needs.

God LOVES my soul. No doubt there. Overflowing grace there. Overflowing gifts there. God’s generosity is truly infinite there.

Temporally, not as much generosity.

Like I said, I don’t remember taking a vow of poverty at my wedding. Or in the hospital when my son was born.

 

[odile53]

Wealth can mean many things. John Rockefeller (the first one) was among the richest men in the world during his time. No question he worked hard. He was also pretty ruthless in undercutting competition, and had some labor practices that were questionable, to say the least (including some violence on both sides in labor disputes.) He became a philanthropist. However, he developed such horrendous gastrointestinal disease (in a time before effective medical treatments were available) that for quite some time he lived on what used to be called the Sippy diet–basically, just milk and cream. That was it. His physicians (and he had access to the best of the times,) believed that his gastrointestinal problems were caused by the pressures of managing his vast financial empire.

Can you imagine being a person of such wealth that you could afford the most sumptuous foods every day of your life, but being forced to subsist on a diet of milk? After hearing his story, I sometimes wonder if Rockefeller secretly envied the least skilled of his workers, who were able to enjoy their humble fare with gusto and sleep soundly at night.

Personally, I have enough: I can only eat one chicken a day, drive one car at a time, live in one home at a time, and wear only a certain amount of clothing at a time. The utilities are all on, and the bills are paid. I have a few small luxuries, and I contribute my fair share to both the Church and to some selected charities. When I stop and think about it, I am far better off than 75 percent of the world. I have no desire to be filthy rich, and would be no happier if I were.

I would caution those who believe in the unrestricted free market to read the papal encyclical Rerum Novarum. Pope Leo XIII outlined nascent modern Catholic social teaching on the rights and responsibilities of both capitalists and labor in it. It’s a very worthwhile read. I am sure His Holiness Pope Francis has been influenced by it, just on the basis of what I’ve read about him and observed over the past two days, and I expect that he will issue his own writings about contemporary Catholic social justice in due time. Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical did emphasize the need to pay labor a living wage. Some of the current crop of enterpreneurs do not do that: People are forced to have second, and sometimes even third jobs, just to maintain a standard of living that puts a roof over their head and food on the table. It disturbs me that most political candidates who espouse pro life issues also propose fiscal policies that do not favor the poor or people of average means. I see that as very hypocritical.

Enlightened capitalists see their labor force as their biggest asset, and treat them as such. That is as it should be. Human beings are not disposable.

 

[twoshoes]

I know if my mind is only on making money that is a form of Idolitry, and should be avoided.

What I have trouble believing is that God cares about temporal needs.

God LOVES my soul. No doubt there. Overflowing grace there. Overflowing gifts there. God’s generosity is truly infinite there.

Temporally, not as much generosity.

Like I said, I don’t remember taking a vow of poverty at my wedding. Or in the hospital when my son was born.

I think we are talk over each other and are in the same place, there is a difference in living in God and the all consuming desire at all cost to collect money, and to be happy in the love of God. Wealth has many evils, Idolitry being only one. The main problem this endless mindset of seaking wealth for weath’s sake has is that it takes us away from praying, and loving, and thinking of our Lord.

Suffering is present in everyday life, none of us are except from it, no even the rich, we can either let it burden us or we can offer our suffering to God as penance, giving purpose for it. It took great suffering in my life to realize this. We have an obligation to do our best to provide for our families, with Gods help it he will provide.

I have a brother who has been wealth 3 times, and lost it. Finally the last time he understood that he had turn from God and was never happy. Wealth can be a blessed thing if used right, very few have used there wealth for the betterment of man.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Wealth can mean many things. John Rockefeller (the first one) was among the richest men in the world during his time. No question he worked hard. He was also pretty ruthless in undercutting competition, and had some labor practices that were questionable, to say the least (including some violence on both sides in labor disputes.) He became a philanthropist.
…

I would caution those who believe in the unrestricted free market to read the papal encyclical Rerum Novarum. Pope Leo XIII outlined nascent modern Catholic social teaching on the rights and responsibilities of both capitalists and labor in it. It’s a very worthwhile read. I am sure His Holiness Pope Francis has been influenced by it, just on the basis of what I’ve read about him and observed over the past two days, and I expect that he will issue his own writings about contemporary Catholic social justice in due time. Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical did emphasize the need to pay labor a living wage. Some of the current crop of enterpreneurs do not do that: People are forced to have second, and sometimes even third jobs, just to maintain a standard of living that puts a roof over their head and food on the table. It disturbs me that most political candidates who espouse pro life issues also propose fiscal policies that do not favor the poor or people of average means. I see that as very hypocritical.

Enlightened capitalists see their labor force as their biggest asset, and treat them as such. That is as it should be. Human beings are not disposable.

Rockefeller lowered the cost of providing petroleum products to the marketplace to such an extent that millions of ordinary people benefited from his innovations.

His competitors were not able to innovate.

They kept prices high to the detriment of the average person.

Rockefeller’s business acumen helped everyone.

**NOW: Rockefeller was NOT A NICE PERSON. **He funded a bunch of “philanthropies” that could be considered as against Christian values.

lewrockwell.com/spl3/rockefeller-assault-on-church-life.html

youtube.com/watch?v=jABDBjlSzKE

Everything is kind of a mixed bag.

In a competitive environment, you do not have to pay Bill Gates, who is not pro-life and use his Windows operating systems. You can use Apple/MacIntosh or you can go it alone and use Linux or some version of that. OR, other operating systems.

Also, in addition to Rerum Novarum, also read “Centisimus Annus”. It’s more recent and updated in light of developments in the hundred years since Rerum Novarum.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

In previous discussions, I have repeatedly asked fellow discussers to tell me how much I should pay them if they want me to write them a check for a “living wage”. At no time has anyone actually given me an actual number. Instead I have gotten long song and dance routines about what the employer can afford. [On another site, a poster replied that a certain job pays $23,000 and he thought that was a fair wage.]

I’m not so sure about the need for second or third jobs on a continuous basis.

It depends.

One fellow on CAF has been explaining how he works one job, makes $17,000 per year, and is not willing to do more work than that … AND he supports a large family.

So, it depends.

Avoid debt. Pay cash for everything. Live simply.

But those are personal choices.

To a large extent, the need for more money is a function on spending choices and government taxation, which is a HUGE number nowadays … much much more now than when Rerum Novarum was published.