Why is God proveable only through thought processes?

[KevinK]

God can’t be proven by physical means (such as physical sciences) because God is not physical.

False. Jesus (God) was physically in the world and still has a physical body.

If you don’t believe, it’s not because the evidence is not convincing enough. It’s because you refuse to accept the evidence as enough.

This makes no sense. A person could make the same argument about anything: You don’t believe in Allah not because the evidence is not convincing enough, but because you refuse to accept the evidence as enough. This is of course the whole point.

We can believe something or refuse to believe it… it’s all in the will.

No. You cannot will yourself to believe that Mohammed is a prophet of God, can you?

Consider also the girl who has plenty of reason to think that the boy she likes won’t be a good boyfriend, but she still chooses to believe that it might work out, against all the evidence.

This is a faulty analogy because this is a subjective question not one of fact.t

 

[Struggling1]

I’m afraid that on death this will all turn out to be wishful thinking and my entire existence will end. I’m sorry also I’ve been in a bit of an anxiety attack for 3 weeks and it doesn’t seem to want to calm down. Any negative tones are me frustrated primarily at myself. That I can’t stop allowing these concerns and propaganda. That I don’t have an explanation for anything belief wise. Maybe it’s just I’m too stupid to understand all this or something. I guess I’m afraid because God isn’t physical because I can’t trust my senses and literally the only way I can believe in him is through logical proofs and nothing I have ever witnessed. Thank you again for bearing with me I’m not trying to be a thorn in anyone side.

 

[womanatwell]

I imagine you are familiar with Romans 1:20,

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (KJV)

I am a veterinarian, so I am very familiar with biology. I study the physiology of the body and makeup of the cells. These are extremely, extremely complex. The majority of people whom we call scientists are living under a mindset of “scientism.” To them, there is no explanation of life other than scientific laws. However, they refuse to admit at this time the laws of science do not explain how life could have come about or proceeded to complex forms. They just take for granted that it must have been “science” whether they can explain it or not.

It is only fair that we are allowed to follow our logic to see where the truth lies. If we say, maybe scientific laws alone could have led to life or maybe life needed divine intervention to be created, the latter would be much more logical at this point. I believe it will stay this way because there is such a huge gap in what we understand are the capabilities of the physical laws and what we know as facts. Though scientists accuse creationists of believing in a “God of the Gaps,” they themselves live under a “Materialism of the Gaps” mindset.

 

[Struggling1]

Thank you I’m sorry for being such a negative person! It’s incredibly complex especially RNA but if neither side has more proof than the other how do I figure out which one is right. I mean we have the Bible and witness of many martyrs but people that are Islamic or satanist even have martyrs. They also have doctorines they believe. I hope you have an excellent rest of your day.

 

[Wingz]

Yes God cannot be provable directly provable by science. But God has provided us ways to know he is real sucprovides Bible or miracles. By examining the scientific or historical accuracy of these sources we could prove the existence of God. However, people can also come to know God by opening themselves to God by actively seeing God already acting in their lives and recognizing when God calls. God loves and cares for all of his creation and will show himself to us if we open our eyes, era, and hearts to God. It is not always easy but takes an open heart and open mind and the willingness to accept and notice God in our lives which is worth more than what scientific or historical evidence can do. Sure proving God is real will allow people to know for a fact he is real. But will they have faith?

 

[Struggling1]

Thank you for the response! I’m sorry I was an arse. It’s true if we had a definitive sign we wouldn’t have faith but why does he choose to help provide proof to some people and not others. What have I don’t that is so wrong that either he doesn’t care enough to do that for me or is it just I’m not significant enough? I’m torn a thousand ways and desperately need him to step in and all I hear and feel is silence. I’m trying so hard to pray dedicated and spend time with him and I don’t seem to make any progress.

 

[Struggling1]

It is helping you have been helpful I’m the one who’s difficult! I’m sorry Brittany.

 

[KevinK]

Jesus was in the world. He isn’t anymore. I don’t think you read that whole paragraph.

But doesn’t He STILL have a physical body wherever He is?

What do you have to say about my flat-earther example?

They choose to believe it based on their interpretation of “evidence” however incorrect or specious. Same with Muslims, Mormons etc.

Yes, I could. I don’t accept it because I don’t accept the evidence as enough. It’s not that I can’t believe it, it’s that I choose not to because I don’t accept the evidence that Muslims present as good enough.

You precisely made my point. You can only will yourself to believe something if you find the evidence convincing. You just paraphrased exactly what I wrote.

 

[womanatwell]

You are already doing well to come to CAF with your questions. Some things take a long time and we just have to hang in there. I for one will be praying for you as I do for all doubters. I’m sure other posters do the same. I usually go to Mass about an hour early so I can pray before it starts. I’ll be going this afternoon and you will be first on my list.

 

[Struggling1]

I appreciate it I feel I’m being a major thorn and I’m sure everyone is sick of my constant questions and seemingly lack of change. Thank you for praying for me.

 

[Kei]

Why do you want to believe without questioning?
Why is belief not enough?

 

[Struggling1]

I don’t honestly know. I guess because I’m used to being able to verify the truth if something through physical means normally and with my senses and in this one there is literally nothing different for me except for me praying.

 

[Struggling1]

I want truth! Something doesn’t believe just because I believe it to be so.

 

[Struggling1]

To better rephrase my belief doesn’t guarantee I’m right. That frightens me. I don’t want my belief to just be wishful thinking.

 

[Kei]

The physical world as you experience it is not solidly verifiable.
Why do you presume it to be so?
When you see a flower, what’s actually happening is that light reflects from off the flower into your eyes and your mind makes sense of what you are seeing, for instance. There are many levels of light we cannot see. We have a limited range in both vision and auditory perception.

I for one find reason purer and reliable over limited sense perception, though so often we do not act like it.

But, you want to see God? There’s certainly pictures of Eucharistic miracles. In a different way, there’s also those suffering, in need. There’s also those giving aid to those in need. There’s the beauty of the sky above and the earth below. The fact of existence itself, and an ordered existence at that.

Let me ask you: can you see gravity, or do you discover the truth of gravity only by thinking? You observe its effects, and from that you can think and realize what is going on.

 

[Struggling1]

But we can observe the effects of gravity we know nothing else accounts for the gravitational constant. We can determine the speed at which gravity pulls things. We can touch the flower and smell it to assure what our eyes are seeing is legitimate. I can’t do that with God. I can’t point and say hey that’s God and touch him and verify what I am feeling. Likewise I feel no differently living a just life then I did embracing earthly pursuits. I have noticed none of the fulfillment that most people talk about and even a sense of peace evades me. I guess it’s wishful thinking that I could receive a sign that matters to me. I guess I’m not completely resigned to belief I do believe because life is pointless otherwise. Maybe I’m just beyond hope. Maybe for once God has legitimately abandoned me because I am not worth the effort or time. Maybe I am not worth having a relationship with.

 

[Thom18]

Why is it “an easy way out”? I can’t explain anatomy and physiology using biology alone (though I would certainly include it), so I need to make use of (or “invent”) different disciplines (such as chemistry) to study and describe specifics about it.

Conventional science can’t be used to prove or disprove God- instead, what we learn in these sciences help us to explain God and His creation.

 

[Kei]

Yes, we can see the effects of gravity. And we can see the effects of God’s Work. Existence itself presents this.
However, can you see gravity or its effects? Can you prove gravity without thinking? You can see the moon in the sky, but can you explain why it’s there if you don’t think? No, as some things simply require thinking.

The use of right reason, taking up of wisdom and reason, taking up of the Logos…why do these things go against you? What do you have against them?

And, why do you say you are abandoned? Because you cannot sense the peace of Christ?
If I recall, you are refraining from the Eucharist? You have many doubts and seem to trust not in God. Doubts are fine, and I can tell you believe in God by the way you speak at least on some level, but for some reason it is as if you do not want to trust in Him.
But, the peace of Christ may not make itself immediately known. One may have to grow a bit in the spirit first. Perhaps you have a mistaken interior life.

I am not your priest. I do request talking to him or a spiritual director. I see you have been doing a lot of devotions. Perhaps, now I am speaking very tentatively here, speak to your priest/spiritual director about this, but perhaps focus more on mental prayer, telling Jesus all these struggles you have. Bring them up to Him, lovingly. Open your heart to Him. Let it all out, prepared for whatever may come after. Know that God loves you. You are not abandoned, for He has come for the whole world. He understands all things.

 

[Struggling1]

It’s fear that I will put my trust in something that isn’t there. It’s not so bad to believe even if I’m wrong but I’m terrified of being wrong. I’m terrified when deaths door embraces me that there will be nothing on the other side. Half of it is probably I wish I had control and in the case of God it would appear we have none.

 

[Struggling1]

It’s true but like gravity can be explained in multiple disciplines of science and yet God seems only proveable through the ones that don’t have physical evidence for but are merely logical proofs. It’s likely a lack of trust in God. I need to continue to pray. Although I think part of what I struggle with is God is not a physical being.