Why is God so mean?

[Charlemagne_II]

Oreoracle

Besides, who deemed it necessary for sins to be counterbalanced by this act? Who deemed it necessary for suffering to be inflicted so that past evils can be overlooked? That was God wasn’t it? Yeah, I’m pretty sure that was God.

You are a fast learner!

 

[jkiernan56]

Oreoracle

Besides, who deemed it necessary for sins to be counterbalanced by this act? Who deemed it necessary for suffering to be inflicted so that past evils can be overlooked? That was God wasn’t it? Yeah, I’m pretty sure that was God.

You are a fast learner!

Charlemagne - Let’s bring this discussion down to earth. Can you recall a situation or event in your life where injustice was done to YOU? What was your response to that event or situation? Did you expect justice?

Hypothetically, if you were sitting at a light in your car and I recklessly ran my car into yours, what would you expect to happen?

Just curious about what your response might be. Rather than talk about God, lets bring this discussion down to earth and start there.

 

[severntofall]

I think my dog wonders that about me when I have to correct him for doing something he shouldn’t for his own good.

Do you think god does any of the following for the our own good: allow us to suffer eternally if we die while not in a proper (to him) state of grace; allow us to be born with horrific birth defects; allow us to be born with severe mental illness; allow us to be physically abused as a child; order the Israelites to commit countless acts of genocide; require carnivores to brutally kill their food if they wish to survive…etc?

Request: Name one atrocity ordered by Hitler that was not also ordered or directly committed by your trinity. Actually, I can think of one: the Nazi’s used slaves to conduct medical experiments on, not sure that the Israelites ever did such a thing (likely because they had no appreciation for or understanding of medical testing or medicine in general). Also, the Hebrews typically (not always) killed off their foes entirely so there were no masses of slaves to test upon. OK, then I’ll modify the request: Name two atrcoties Hitler ordered that the trinity did not.

 

[severntofall]

PJM,
This is really a comical question.
Do you think your mother was mean when she disciplined you?
God bless,
jean

Do you think it is possible to discipline a person without committing genocide. When your mother disciplined you did she ever hit you and then keep hitting you for an eternity?
What lesson can a person learn from being punished eternally, and what value is such a lesson?

 

[jkiernan56]

Do you think god does any of the following for the our own good: allow us to suffer eternally if we die while not in a proper (to him) state of grace; allow us to be born with horrific birth defects; allow us to be born with severe mental illness; allow us to be physically abused as a child; order the Israelites to commit countless acts of genocide; require carnivores to brutally kill their food if they wish to survive…etc?

Request: Name one atrocity ordered by Hitler that was not also ordered or directly committed by your trinity. Actually, I can think of one: the Nazi’s used slaves to conduct medical experiments on, not sure that the Israelites ever did such a thing (likely because they had no appreciation for or understanding of medical testing or medicine in general). Also, the Hebrews typically (not always) killed off their foes entirely so there were no masses of slaves to test upon. OK, then I’ll modify the request: Name two atrcoties Hitler ordered that the trinity did not.

Actually, ANY atrocities you mention here I will go on record as saying “my Trinity” did not order or commit. Did my Trinity ever “make” YOU do something unjust? Rather than discuss other people, lets bring it back home to YOU. Has God or does God “make” YOU do evil?

 

[Detales]

Short answer to Charlemagne II:

“Christianists” are those who think they follow Jesus and worship God in ignorance.

 

[jkiernan56]

Do you think it is possible to discipline a person without committing genocide. When your mother disciplined you did she ever hit you and then keep hitting you for an eternity?
What lesson can a person learn from being punished eternally, and what value is such a lesson?

When you put your hand on a hot stove, is that an act of God “hitting you”? If you leave your hand on the hot stove, is that an act of God “hitting you” over and over?

When you have done some wrong or injustice to another human being, have you ever withheld an apology from them? Is the choice of not asking forgiveness or giving forgiveness to others an act of God “hitting you”?

Even Neuton’s law says that for every action there is a reaction. In human behavior, for every action there is a consequence. If you love Evil and hate God at the time of death, is it an act of God “hitting you” that you end up in a place where you “get” and “reap” what you have sown in your life?

God does not “hit” anyone. Anyone who goes to Hell goes there because of their choices and the spiritual state they are in at the time of death.

 

[severntofall]

When you put your hand on a hot stove, is that an act of God “hitting you”? If you leave your hand on the hot stove, is that an act of God “hitting you” over and over?

Of course not.

When you have done some wrong or injustice to another human being, have you ever withheld an apology from them? Is the choice of not asking forgiveness or giving forgiveness to others an act of God “hitting you”?

No idea how this relates to the discussion.

Even Neuton’s law says that for every action there is a reaction.

Wrong! It says that there is an opposite and **equal **reaction.

In human behavior, for every action there is a consequence. If you love Evil and hate God at the time of death, is it an act of God “hitting you” that you end up in a place where you “get” and “reap” what you have sown in your life?

If the punishment infinitely exceeds the offense then yes. Listen, I like the idea of bad people getting what they deserve as much as the next guy, but even the worst person in the world deserves a reprieve at some point. Nobody deserves to be punished forever.

God does not “hit” anyone. Anyone who goes to Hell goes there because of their choices and the spiritual state they are in at the time of death.

No he merely creates a realm where people are forced to continue hitting themselves eternally. Nobody in his right mind would choose eternal torture…nobody; thus anyone receiving hell is being punished for a decision that they didn’t know they were making. There is no persuasive argument for its existence and personally I’d be shocked to learn that it actually existed. Again, nobody who truly understood the situation would ever chose eternal pain over eternal happiness…at least no sane person would. Hell, if it exists, is where god punishes people for their ignorance.

 

[severntofall]

Actually, ANY atrocities you mention here I will go on record as saying “my Trinity” did not order or commit. Did my Trinity ever “make” YOU do something unjust? Rather than discuss other people, lets bring it back home to YOU. Has God or does God “make” YOU do evil?

Did I make the trinity order Joshua to order the destruction of Jericho and all life within?
Did I order the trinity to give this command:
Ezekiel 9:3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”
*5 As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.

Did I order the trinity to do this:
Exodus 9: 29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.

Did I order your trinity to order two bears to savagely attack 41 boys for calling Elijha bald?

Seriously, two atrocities ordered by Hitler that your trinity has not also either committed or ordered…I already told you one. It shouldn’t be hard.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

sevrentofall

Again, nobody who truly understood the situation would ever chose eternal pain over eternal happiness…at least no sane person would. Hell, if it exists, is where god punishes people for their ignorance.

You understand the situation. Hell is forever. **You understand that, don’t you? **Well then, why as an agnostic are you choosing hell? Are you sane?

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

 

[Charlemagne_II]

severntofall

*If the punishment infinitely exceeds the offense then yes. Listen, I like the idea of bad people getting what they deserve as much as the next guy, but even the worst person in the world deserves a reprieve at some point. Nobody deserves to be punished forever. *

They chose it, they deserve it. Why is this so difficult to grasp? They could have chosen heaven. Why didn’t they? Ornery as hell?

:bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

 

[Charlemagne_II]

severntofall

By the way, I notice that you, like other atheists who visit this forum, choose to lower case the name of our God. Is this just ignorance of grammar on your part, or are you being deliberately spiteful?

Either way, I assume you’d like some respect. I like to think some atheists have manners.

 

[jkiernan56]

The point being was that even in physics, for every action there is a cause/effect relationship … even if that be the “opposite”. I am using that as an analogy to the context of human behavior having consequences.

What is the point of this discussion? The thread is all about “why is God so mean?”
I was responding to the vitriole that was spewed out at God … and knowing what I know about God … I won’t let you or anyone attribute Evil to Him …

Someone’s earlier comments I was responding to -

**Do you think god does any of the following for the our own good: allow us to suffer eternally if we die while not in a proper (to him) state of grace; allow us to be born with horrific birth defects; allow us to be born with severe mental illness; allow us to be physically abused as a child; order the Israelites to commit countless acts of genocide; require carnivores to brutally kill their food if they wish to survive…etc?

Request: Name one atrocity ordered by Hitler that was not also ordered or directly committed by your trinity. Actually, I can think of one: the Nazi’s used slaves to conduct medical experiments on, not sure that the Israelites ever did such a thing (likely because they had no appreciation for or understanding of medical testing or medicine in general). Also, the Hebrews typically (not always) killed off their foes entirely so there were no masses of slaves to test upon. OK, then I’ll modify the request: Name two atrcoties Hitler ordered that the trinity did not. **

 

[Oreoracle]

severntofall

If the punishment infinitely exceeds the offense then yes. Listen, I like the idea of bad people getting what they deserve as much as the next guy, but even the worst person in the world deserves a reprieve at some point. Nobody deserves to be punished forever.

They chose it, they deserve it. Why is this so difficult to grasp? They could have chosen heaven. Why didn’t they? Ornery as hell?

:bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

Let’s say you have a son that doesn’t believe in God. He’s an atheist that becomes a doctor and saves lives, donates a good percentage of his paycheck to charities, etc. In other words, he’s a great guy by any reasonable person’s standards. Now, you’re dead and you know that it’s your son’s time to be judged. If you could tell me that you would stand by God on your little cloud as your son is cast down to Hell and say “Good job God! You did the right thing as always!” then I will be convinced. Until then, put up or shut up.

 

[severntofall]

severntofall

By the way, I notice that you, like other atheists who visit this forum, choose to lower case the name of our God. Is this just ignorance of grammar on your part, or are you being deliberately spiteful?

Either way, I assume you’d like some respect. I like to think some atheists have manners.

Turns out that I also don’t capitalize easter bunny either.

 

[severntofall]

severntofall

If the punishment infinitely exceeds the offense then yes. Listen, I like the idea of bad people getting what they deserve as much as the next guy, but even the worst person in the world deserves a reprieve at some point. Nobody deserves to be punished forever.

They chose it, they deserve it. Why is this so difficult to grasp? They could have chosen heaven. Why didn’t they? Ornery as hell?

:bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

I have this bizarre concept that justice should be commensurate with the act. In other words, a punishment should as close as possible equal the offense; however with the application of mercy one might opt to punish in a manner that is less than the offense. Again, no sane person would ever choose eternal torture over eternal happiness. The notion that a being with the power and greatness to create the universe from pure will who also find it necessary to create a realm of eternal torture just in case it were needed is laughable to me. The concept of hell is naught but an attempt at extortion at least that’s what the evidence seems to indicate.

 

[severntofall]

The point being was that even in physics, for every action there is a cause/effect relationship … even if that be the “opposite”. I am using that as an analogy to the context of human behavior having consequences.

Correct, however in physics no reaction is ever infinite.

What is the point of this discussion? The thread is all about “why is God so mean?”
I was responding to the vitriole that was spewed out at God … and knowing what I know about God … I won’t let you or anyone attribute Evil to Him …

Read the OT and you will quickly understand that the trinity attributes evil unto itself.

 

[severntofall]

sevrentofall
You understand the situation. Hell is forever. **You understand that, don’t you? **Well then, why as an agnostic are you choosing hell? Are you sane?

I understand that hell, like santa’s workshop, does not exist. It would seem that my realization of these facts is evidence of my sanity.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

Looks like we’re both in trouble.

 

[Detales]

Charlemagne II~“By the way, I notice that you, like other atheists who visit this forum, choose to lower case the name of our God. Is this just ignorance of grammar on your part, or are you being deliberately spiteful?”

There’s that wonderful either/or evaluation again. How about “both/and?” I personally use both in order to distinguish “God” as IS and “god” as christianists and others think a god. Being neither christianist nor atheist it is good to keep straight about that.

Severn, wasn't it Adoph who said "It is great luck for leaders that men don't think!"?

 

[One]

Thank you Rob for responding and your honesty. I sincerely mean that. I was not trying to pigeon hole you or judge the kind of person you are by one’s experiences. You write and express yourself very well. A person’s experience is not an accurate barometer of the person.

If a person’s beliefs and undersanding of the world do not bring about a sense of humility and deeper respect for others (regardless of what they believe) , they have missed the boat. I differ with you that all beliefs are false, but rather see a continuum that some are closer to the truth than others. For me, I put all my chips on the Person of Christ.

Gratefully yours, Jim

Hi, Jim –

I suppose that using the word “pigeonhole” was not my best choice. It’s often a loaded word, and I did not intend to accuse anyone of doing so. I was trying to point to the notion that some people will hear a few paragraphs of a story and think that it’s the complete picture of someone. A life lived is more complicated than that.

As for your first comment about beliefs, I agree completely. People’s beliefs are theirs to hold, and no one appreciates having their belief system messed with. Conversations often degrade when belief systems are defended at all costs (lest our worlds come tumbling down), and we sometimes lose sight of the fact that we’re all here for learning and understanding.

On your latter comment regarding beliefs, it caused me to wonder: If beliefs are not false, but are part of a continuum where some are closer to truth (Truth) than others, then doesn’t that imply that even the belief that is closest to Truth is still just a belief?

I believe so.

One point that I keep trying to make is that there is Truth (or God…), and then there are beliefs about that Truth, all of which require a dualism to even consider. Since God is All-That-Is, then any belief (dualism) is inherently Not-Truth.

In the end, I believe in two things:

1. I believe in no beliefs, but that too is just my belief.
2. There is nothing we can say about Truth, including this. All utterances miss the mark.

Thanks for understanding my reasons for not telling a story. Perhaps this is another glimpse as to why I didn’t.

Best,
Rob