Why is Islam false?

[Sam_777]

Any idea how that came about?

(Quran 28:7-13):
*[28:7]
And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.

[28:8]
And the family of Pharaoh took him up, that he might become for them an enemy and a sorrow, Lo! Pharaoh and Haman and their hosts were ever sinning.

[28:9]
And the wife of Pharaoh said: (He will be) a consolation for me and for thee. Kill him not. Peradventure he may be of use to us, or we may choose him for a son. And they perceived not.

[28:10]
And the heart of the mother of Moses became void, and she would have betrayed him if We had not fortified her heart, that she might be of the believers.

[28:11]
And she said unto his sister: Trace him. So she observed him from afar, and they perceived not.

[28:12]
And We had before forbidden foster-mothers for him, so she said: Shall I show you a household who will rear him for you and take care of him ?

[28:13]
So We restored him to his mother that she might be comforted and not grieve, and that she might know that the promise of Allah is true. But most of them know not.*

 

[po18guy]

(Quran 28:7-13):
*[28:7]
And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.

[28:8]
And the family of Pharaoh took him up, that he might become for them an enemy and a sorrow, Lo! Pharaoh and Haman and their hosts were ever sinning.

[28:9]
And the wife of Pharaoh said: (He will be) a consolation for me and for thee. Kill him not. Peradventure he may be of use to us, or we may choose him for a son. And they perceived not.

[28:10]
And the heart of the mother of Moses became void, and she would have betrayed him if We had not fortified her heart, that she might be of the believers.

[28:11]
And she said unto his sister: Trace him. So she observed him from afar, and they perceived not.

[28:12]
And We had before forbidden foster-mothers for him, so she said: Shall I show you a household who will rear him for you and take care of him ?

[28:13]
So We restored him to his mother that she might be comforted and not grieve, and that she might know that the promise of Allah is true. But most of them know not.*

I see the use of “We”. Does this indicate Allah and His Spirit?

 

[0thetrooth0]

I see the use of “We”. Does this indicate Allah and His Spirit?

From what I have heard from several Muslims is that it is another way if saying I, but with more emphasize, it is the royal “We”, it confuses alot of people reading the Quran because they think it is plural, When Allah says We or I, it means the same thing, I. I am th best of planners or We are the best of planners it is the same thing but wen We is used its there to emphasize a strong point being made.

 

[po18guy]

From what I have heard from several Muslims is that it is another way if saying I, but with more emphasize, it is the royal “We”, it confuses alot of people reading the Quran because they think it is plural, When Allah says We or I, it means the same thing, I. I am th best of planners or We are the best of planners it is the same thing but wen We is used its there to emphasize a strong point being made.

So much for the linguistic fluency and precision of the text, I guess.

 

[Darryl1958]

Montchevalier, I know many on this Forum will disagree; however, I view those Muslims who believe in the annihilation of the Jews to be ignorant of their own religious teaching and moral values.

I always find it amazing how people schooled in methods of social science would accept on faith alone such rosy beliefs about Islam without bothering to see if their views conform to the real world.
It is fine and well that you believe that such Muslims are ignorant of their own religious traditions.

In that case, it must be that an American Jew has a better understanding of the moral values and teachings of Islam than do 97 percent of Muslims in certain countries, especially the one which are not coincidentally in a geographical position to strike out at the Jews of Israel.

wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_(Antisemitism

Pew asked respondents to give their opinions of Christians, Muslims and Jews, and it found anti-Jewish sentiment to be “overwhelming” in the Muslim countries surveyed. It reached 98 percent in Jordan and 97 percent in Egypt.[16]

As a non-Muslim I am not in a position to say what the ‘true’ Islamic teaching and moral value system is. As scientists though, we can note that if it is true that Muslims who seek to drive the descendants of monkeys and pigs into oblivion are ignorant of their own faith traditions, then that would include up to 98 percent of all Muslims in countries close to the geographical heartland of the House of Islam.

 

[Darryl1958]

There are a whole HOST of issues that point out Islam to be a somewhat suspect religion.

Firstly is the issue of the Qur’an itself. The book is written in classical Arabic, and supposedly every Muslim is to learn it. However there are many theories which suggest that there are Aramaic and Syriac loan words are present in the Qur’an and that many of the more controversial passages in the Qur’an actually allow for sometimes radically different translations when this is taken into account. A prime example of this is the passage which states that martyrs will be given virgins when they enter Jannah (heaven)- the Syriac word with the same consonants as present in the Arabic text means ‘fruit’!

There is also an issue with Sunnah, the teachings of Muhammad himself. The Qur’an states it is a perfect and most of all COMPLETE book for all mankind to follow. The argument is that there is a massive contradiction between this and the current orthodox Muslim thought which holds sunnah and Qur’an as both being equally valid and that Muslims are to follow both.
There is now a growing Islamic school of thought which rejects sunnah and ahadeeths as being unnecessary and false. However much of the Islamic belief system is based on traditional practices with basis in sunnah- the forms of Islamic prayer, the Five Pillars of Islam and even how to perform ablutions (wudu) is all from this source, and the usual criticism of Quranist Islam is that whilst they reject hadiths, they follow practices from them.

I think that when judging the truth claims of any system faith, it is relevant to judge according to how well the claims of the adherents conform to an objective rational and critical analysis.

A central claim of many Muslims, and one that has likely been around since the religion calcified after the Mongol and Moghul sacks, is that the Koran is the direct word of Allah, transmitted divinely through angelic voice, accurate to the dot and the iota, and Mohammed was merely the messenger, a human telux machine so to speak.

Any critical analysis of such a claim would suggest that this claim is highly improbable; as you say, many of the passages of the Koran show traces of foreign sources. Many even are directly outsourced from some of the apocryphal Christian works that abounded outside of the areas of the Churches political influence.
Even in their own Muslim history, Abu Bakr is reported to have ordered all but one of the versions of the rapidly multiplying ‘Koranic’ verses to be destroyed, even the most authentic ones in the possession of Mohammed’s own widow, with the overtly stated objective being politically expediency, ‘so that Muslims do not become divided as the Christians have become’ due to such variances.

The Catholic claim, made even recently by Pope Benedict XVI is that there can be no contradiction between faith and science. Faith does not contradict reason, but necessarily conforms to reason, in the Catholic faith tradition.

it is a blind faith that disregards reasonableness that still regards the faith claim about the full divinity of Koranic sources. That is what your evidence suggest, and indeed, the fact that serious Muslims scholars who attempt to do such critical scholarship on their Koran are censured and even tortured for their efforts are a good indication that the expedient spirit of Abu Bakr lives on in the Islamic tradition.

For a true religion, truth is power. For Islam, however, power is their truth.

 

[Berachiah]

A central claim of many Muslims, and one that has likely been around since the religion calcified after the Mongol and Moghul sacks, is that the Koran is the direct word of Allah, transmitted divinely through angelic voice, accurate to the dot and the iota, and Mohammed was merely the messenger, a human telux machine so to speak.

Any critical analysis of such a claim would suggest that this claim is highly improbable; as you say, many of the passages of the Koran show traces of foreign sources. Many even are directly outsourced from some of the apocryphal Christian works that abounded outside of the areas of the Churches political influence.

Even in their own Muslim history, Abu Bakr is reported to have ordered all but one of the versions of the rapidly multiplying ‘Koranic’ verses to be destroyed, even the most authentic ones in the possession of Mohammed’s own widow, with the overtly stated objective being politically expediency, ‘so that Muslims do not become divided as the Christians have become’ due to such variances.

Allah could speak in any language he so chose and Mohammad just quoted what he heard. So what if it included foreign language.

There could be problem with written texts however but they could always be checked with the oral version. Muslims claim that even by Abu Bakr’s time, there were many Muslims who recited the whole of Koran orally.

 

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[Marybeloved]

Allah could speak in any language he so chose and Mohammad just quoted what he heard. So what if it included foreign language.

There could be problem with written texts however but they could always be checked with the oral version. Muslims claim that even by Abu Bakr’s time, there were many Muslims who recited the whole of Koran orally.

So why would there be discrepancies among them? Still doesn’t answer the question.

How did Abu bakr know that the ones that differed with the one he selected as the standard authentic version and that those Muslims who recited those rejected and destroyed versions were not the correct ones? Was he also a messenger/Apostle of Allah? Did he receive a revelation of the true version of the Quran from Jibril?

Peace.

 

[Amer_Was_Amazed]

I see the use of “We”. Does this indicate Allah and His Spirit?

From what I understand, Arabic and Hebrew have a plurality of numbers and a plurality of respect. That’s all it is. In Bosnian for example, you could say “vi ste tu”, which means “you all ( more than one ) are there” to one person, if in a formal setting or trying to be respectful. It’s just a language construct.

 

[Amer_Was_Amazed]

Hey AWA, isn’t it true that in the Quran, Moses is taken out of the water and given to Pharaoh’s wife?

Any idea how that came about?

MJ

Yeah, something like that. I think Sam_777 below showed all the verses relating to that. I don’t think there are any more verses in the Quran about that but I know there are many random stories about Moses.

NOW, if you wanna get to the really interesting stuff, check out hadiths. Here is one about Moses:

Volume 1, Book 5, Number 277:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, “The (people of) Bani Israel used to take bath naked (all together) looking at each other. The Prophet Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, ‘By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.’ So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, ‘My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone!’ till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, ‘By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body.’ Moses took his clothes and began to beat the stone.” Abu Huraira added, “By Allah! There are still six or seven marks present on the stone from that excessive beating.”

I don’t know, just doesn’t sound likely to me…hadiths always have interesting stories, and many have wise truths. Many others, like the one above, do not, at least from what I get out of it.

Another interesting thing to look at is a list of Islamic fatwas ( religious decrees ), especially the homepage of the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia: alifta.com/Fatawa/FatawaChapters.aspx?MenuID=0&View=tree&NodeID=1&PageNo=1&BookID=15&Rokn=true

They are very strict, very against non-Muslims, and they expose how the religious Salafi/Wahabbi leaders of Saudi Arabia think. I found it interesting anyway.

 

[MartinJordan]

Thks for the insight AWA. Btw that’s quite a peculiar story there. Seems like an attempt to show Moses was not like a Jew and I know Islam would keep hitting the point that Moses was a Muslim.

MJ

 

[Darryl1958]

So why would there be discrepancies among them? Still doesn’t answer the question.

How did Abu bakr know that the ones that differed with the one he selected as the standard authentic version and that those Muslims who recited those rejected and destroyed versions were not the correct ones? Was he also a messenger/Apostle of Allah? Did he receive a revelation of the true version of the Quran from Jibril?

Peace.

The axiom goes that if you hear hoofbeats, think horses rather than unicorns.
Or even zebras, really, although the official story of origins of the Koran is more fantastic than even zebras.

The story of a revelation from Gabriel in Arabic so perfect that it must be of divine origins is the more fantastic explanation. The more likely answer then, given the plethora of verses from a myriad of sources even in Abu Bakrs time, is that this is where the Koran came from in the first place— a plethora of sources.

This is fine as far as it goes. It is not as if the Biblical narratives arise whole cloth out of the middle of nowhere, but the cultural influences and personalities and understandings of the individual scholars and authors who wrote and compiled the Bible are likewise very apparent.
It is an unreasonable claim to state otherwise, but that is the faith claim about the koran, that Kouyote notes many educated Muslims are beginning to doubt too, insofar as they are not risking their necks for doing so.

The arbitrary decision by Abu Bakr says he understood as much too.

He was not a messenger; he was a politician.

 

[Darryl1958]

Yeah, something like that. I think Sam_777 below showed all the verses relating to that. I don’t think there are any more verses in the Quran about that but I know there are many random stories about Moses.

NOW, if you wanna get to the really interesting stuff, check out hadiths. Here is one about Moses:

Volume 1, Book 5, Number 277:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, “The (people of) Bani Israel used to take bath naked (all together) looking at each other. The Prophet Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, ‘By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.’ So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, ‘My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone!’ till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, ‘By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body.’ Moses took his clothes and began to beat the stone.” Abu Huraira added, “By Allah! There are still six or seven marks present on the stone from that excessive beating.”

I don’t know, just doesn’t sound likely to me…hadiths always have interesting stories, and many have wise truths. Many others, like the one above, do not, at least from what I get out of it.

…

Midrashic stories of Judaism have many of the same elements, and the influence of Judaism on Islam is even stronger than that of Christianity.
The beating of the stone by Moses, whatever wisdom is ultimately involved, brings to mind the reason why Moses was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land, by the way. It was exactly because he beat the stone rather than talked to it, as God told him to, that kept him from leading his people out of the desert.
Some Christians interpret the reason for this as being that the rock is Christ, the stone that the builders rejected. Some Jews see this more as Moses proving himself incapable of leading his people from the extraordinary world of miracle that life in the desert entailed, into an ordinary world where people would have to make a living on their own without extraordinary means.

At any rate Midrash are not often meant to be taken literally, and by all accounts neither are hadith such as this one.

 

[Amer_Was_Amazed]

Thks for the insight AWA. Btw that’s quite a peculiar story there. Seems like an attempt to show Moses was not like a Jew and I know Islam would keep hitting the point that Moses was a Muslim.

MJ

Oh yes, according to mainstream Muslims even Adam, Abraham, and Jesus were Muslim.

 

[po18guy]

Oh yes, according to mainstream Muslims even Adam, Abraham, and Jesus were Muslim.

Mary has her own chapter in the Qur’an, which is named for her. And from her, I believe, will come the revelation which will point the world’s Muslims toward the true Priest, Prophet and King. Look at the final sentence of her magnificat:
Luke 1:55
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
“As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.”

I note that Ishmael is the seed of Abraham.

 

[MartinJordan]

Mary has her own chapter in the Qur’an, which is named for her. And from her, I believe, will come the revelation which will point the world’s Muslims toward the true Priest, Prophet and King. Look at the final sentence of her magnificat:
Luke 1:55
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
“As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.”

I note that Ishmael is the seed of Abraham.

Good one.

Only thing is I don’t think there’s any fact nor proof that Mohammed came from Ishmael’s line…is there?

MJ

 

[po18guy]

Good one.

Only thing is I don’t think there’s any fact nor proof that Mohammed came from Ishmael’s line…is there?

MJ

IDK on that. But, it may begin there and the truth is desired by all hearts.

 

[MartinJordan]

IDK on that. But, it may begin there and the truth is desired by all hearts.

Agreed. Nice

On another point I had just asked a old Muslim friend of mine whos name sounds like Prophet Elijah, whether he was indeed named after the former. When answered in the afirmative He also admitted that Elijah was Jewish name that kinda took me aback because my impression was that Muslim do NOT admit that.

Made me happy

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

IDK on that. But, it may begin there and the truth is desired by all hearts.

Agreed. Nice

On another point I had just asked a old Muslim friend of mine whos name sounds like Prophet Elijah, whether he was indeed named after the former. When answered in the afirmative He also stated that Elijah was Jewish name, that kinda took me aback because my impression was that Muslims do NOT readily admit that.

Made me happy

MJ