Why is it absurd to live for God?

[wanstronian]

Are you caught up in the Old Testament? Have you read the New Testament? Your comments sound like you haven’t read past the Old Testament, and/or are caught up in and hurt by God’s acts of Divine Wrath. Even the Old Testament is demonstrative of several acts of Divine Mercy. Divine Wrath and Divine Mercy are both present in the Old and New Testaments, and God justly executes all His deeds. Have you heard of Jesus? Do you know that Jesus is God? Jesus gave it all, my brother.

It’s all very well advising I concentrate on the good stuff - how do you explain the bad?

“God justly executes all His deeds?” Are you kidding?

Numbers 15:32-36 - “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. {15:35} And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.” Is this just - to murder a man for gathering firewood?

Is it just to “visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation?” (Exodus 34:6-7)

Is it just to take women as spoils of war? (Numbers 31:18)

I assume that you think all these things (and there are plenty more examples) are perfectly acceptable?

And Jesus isn’t all that, either: Read Luke 12:47-48, or Mark 14:3-9. What about Matthew 10:34? Granted, Jesus is a lot better than the God of the OT. Far fewer people died unnecessarily. But if Jesus is God, why the sudden change in attitude? And even if Jesus was a generally decent chap, that doesn’t excuse the actions of the OT God.

 

[tonyrey]

How can it be absurd to live for Love? It is absurd to live as if love is a myth!

It is significant that there are no responses. Silence implies consent…

 

[UnityofTrinity]

Truly the question must imply whether or not morality comes from society. For an example, since we’re living in a Western society, thus our views are truly western when it comes to judging others who lived not just distanced by space by by time as well. One should remember many times in the Old Testament there are times which God truly appears to the people and prophesize, but there also times which the people attribute things to God, for an example where the man who gathered wood is brought to the congregation. I think anyone who read this passage can know that this can only be a metaphor, since often many times the judgement of Moses and the judges are deemed as God inspired(not always). But base on the nature ofGod Himself, we know He would come down in the middle of a court to sentence people, don’t we?

But if morality is only peculiar to a society to keep Law and Order, then that means we have to reason to call God as a tyrant or “a nasty chap”. Since society is decided by society, by judging others actions who are seperated from our times and space, we would make an assumption that we’re the “civilized” ones and they’re underdeveloped. The question truly is without that moral authority, who can tell you if your morality is right or their morality is right? You can’t say Hitler is evil because the skinheads will say otherwise.

(P.S: Mother Teresa only told the people to be content and have peace with their own situation, Mother Teresa would be evil if she came not to comfort them but to give them schemes to make money.)

 

[JackVk]

Assuming your post is directed at me, I should point out that atheists are not slaves to Dawkins. Indeed, Dawkins’ conclusions are hardly new, nor are they particularly taxing to arrive at. Your implication that I’m just repeating someone else’s work is incorrect and condescending. The OT, depicting the cruelty and immorality of God, is there for all to see. It doesn’t need Dawkins to point it out - a four-year-old could spot it. I assume your arrogant depiction of me as someone who just copies other people’s work is just some sort of strategy to belittle me, as (like your religious belief) it surely isn’t based on any evidence.

You claim that these nations were “horribly sinful.” What - every single person in them was “horribly sinful?” That seems a bit unlikely, don’t you think? The excuse that the kids would grow up with the beliefs of their parents is terribly weak. It’s interesting that one of the “horrible sins” they perpetrated was sacrificing babies to their Gods - this sounds right up God’s street (have you read II Kings 2:23-24? What about Psalms 137:9?)

Would you advocate genocide as an effective approach today, if your country was at war with another? Do you think the Allies should have murdered every last German during WWII? These are not rhetorical questions, if you were wondering - I’d like an answer.

Hitler was a loony Christian who despised organised religion. His statements against organised religion have been seized upon by Christians who are desperate to paint him an atheist. But he wasn’t. He believed in God, and believed he was doing God’s work. And the Catholic church publicly supported him.

Why would atheism lead someone to target Jews? By what process does an absence of religious belief lead someone to target a specific religious group? The idea is nonsense - far more likely that Hitler was a Christian, even without his statements confirming the fact.

It’s another common misconception of unthinking Christian theists that Hitler was advocating Darwinian selection. (It’s clearly a defence mechanism - pick the most evil man in recent history and use him to try and bad-mouth atheism and Darwinism, the two biggest thorns in Christianity’s side). But in reality, Hitler was neither an atheist nor a Darwinist. Really, you should read up on this - it’s pretty outrageous that you accused me of not thinking for myself when you trot out ill-considered, erroneous dogmatic rhetoric like this. Hitler hated Darwin’s ideas, and outlawed the Origin.

Really, you don’t seem to have a clue what you’re talking about.

Allow me to quote Hitler from Hitler’s Table Talk, a compilation of his personal opinions. he called Christianity “one of the great scourges of history”, and told the Germans “Let’s be the only people who are immunized against this disease”. He promised that “through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity”.

In addition, The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy were labeled “troublemakers”. Many Catholic priests were sent to concentration camps. Haven’t you heard of St. Maxmillian Kolbe?

Churches were constantly under Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers.

Does any of this honestly sound Christian to you? The idea that Hitler was a Christian is pure myth. When does he quote the Gospels? When does he say to love your neighbor as yourself? The Christian message is LOVE, something Hitler obviously did not preach. He saw himself as a god.

You’re not proving anything. You’re just using atheist’s favorite argument: the “Shut-up-I’m-smarter-than-you” routine.

 

[Altruist]

It’s all very well advising I concentrate on the good stuff - how do you explain the bad?

“God justly executes all His deeds?” Are you kidding?

Numbers 15:32-36 - “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. {15:35} And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.” Is this just - to murder a man for gathering firewood?

Is it just to “visit the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation?” (Exodus 34:6-7)

Is it just to take women as spoils of war? (Numbers 31:18)

I assume that you think all these things (and there are plenty more examples) are perfectly acceptable?

And Jesus isn’t all that, either: Read Luke 12:47-48, or Mark 14:3-9. What about Matthew 10:34? Granted, Jesus is a lot better than the God of the OT. Far fewer people died unnecessarily. But if Jesus is God, why the sudden change in attitude? And even if Jesus was a generally decent chap, that doesn’t excuse the actions of the OT God.

These things are just. First, according to the Law at the time, that of Moses given by God, any sort of work whatever was forbidden on the Sabbath. Also, the concept of punishment of men going for generations due to sins that were committed by the original generation are also just. Think of original sin, it goes and permeates throughout all people. All people have a tendency to sin, to estrange themselves from God. Sinners deserve punishment. If they sinned, their offspring are likely to sin equally so. One tends to do as he is brought up to do.

Besides, who should care what God did against sinful man? As long as He has always presented the opportunity for salvation to the just, what does it matter what else He did? I am not sure why you seem to be so engrossed by denying that God has always been just in correspondence to those who are just. God has always been loving to the righteous, no more is needed.

 

[wanstronian]

Allow me to quote Hitler from Hitler’s Table Talk, a compilation of his personal opinions. he called Christianity “one of the great scourges of history”, and told the Germans “Let’s be the only people who are immunized against this disease”. He promised that “through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity”.

In addition, The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy were labeled “troublemakers”. Many Catholic priests were sent to concentration camps. Haven’t you heard of St. Maxmillian Kolbe?

Churches were constantly under Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers.

As I said, he hated the institution of religion. That doesn’t make him an atheist. He declared himself a Christian. Horse’s mouth, mate - don’t complain to me if you don’t like it.

Does any of this honestly sound Christian to you? The idea that Hitler was a Christian is pure myth. When does he quote the Gospels? When does he say to love your neighbor as yourself? The Christian message is LOVE, something Hitler obviously did not preach. He saw himself as a god.

“When did he quote the gospels?” Are you serious? Is that a requirement? One actually has to quote the gospels to be Christian? Quick, I’d better tell my Christian work colleague that he’s slacking! What a preposterous objection.

Do you think 12th century Muslims saw “love” as the Christian message? What about the innocent victims of the Inquisition? How do explain the unequivocal messages of cruelty, revenge and intolerance in the bible?

You’re not proving anything. You’re just using atheist’s favorite argument: the “Shut-up-I’m-smarter-than-you” routine.

There’s not really any point in responding to childish outbursts like this. You’re clearly more interested in throwing insults than in considering the evidence. It’s irrelevant to the thread subject anyway.

I’ve never seen an atheist make this “favourite” argument, so I can only assume that your comment stems from how you feel when arguing with one. It’s hardly the atheist’s problem if you don’t feel as smart as them.

 

[tonyrey]

Those who believe it is absurd to live for God don’t realise it is absurd to live for themselves. Ingratitude is not only inane but insane! It poisons one’s whole outlook on life…

 

[wanstronian]

These things are just. First, according to the Law at the time, that of Moses given by God, any sort of work whatever was forbidden on the Sabbath. Also, the concept of punishment of men going for generations due to sins that were committed by the original generation are also just. Think of original sin, it goes and permeates throughout all people. All people have a tendency to sin, to estrange themselves from God. Sinners deserve punishment. If they sinned, their offspring are likely to sin equally so. One tends to do as he is brought up to do.

Besides, who should care what God did against sinful man? As long as He has always presented the opportunity for salvation to the just, what does it matter what else He did? I am not sure why you seem to be so engrossed by denying that God has always been just in correspondence to those who are just. God has always been loving to the righteous, no more is needed.

Is your screen name intended to be ironic? It’s completely at odds with your horrific comments. Do you think that people should be stoned to death these days, for working on the Sabbath? Do you really think that the evil perpetrated by somebody is passed down, without exception, for four generations?

You’re nuts.

Edit: actually, on reflection, I think you’re a troll.

 

[Hastrman]

As I said, he hated the institution of religion. That doesn’t make him an atheist. He declared himself a Christian. Horse’s mouth, mate - don’t complain to me if you don’t like it.

Oh yes, let’s take the word of the world’s most famous liar.

Do you think 12th century Muslims saw “love” as the Christian message? What about the innocent victims of the Inquisition? How do explain the unequivocal messages of cruelty, revenge and intolerance in the bible?

I’m pretty sure 12th Century Muslims saw “if you invade our land (the Byzantine province of Palestine) we’ll fight you; if you deliberately provoke us during a siege we may not always react with perfect equanimity; and yet unlike you we do in fact believe—as a rule, not just the occasional magnanimity of a warrior—that noncombatants should be spared” as the Christian message. But then, I’ve actually learned the history of the Crusades.

As for “innocent victims” of the Inquisitions, the majority of people the Inquisition was preached against were members of the Cathar death cult that taught childbearing was a sin and no form of contract was valid. The rest were suspected double agents during a war of immediate peril for Spain’s survival (i.e., paranoia happens)—and that inquisition was not actually conducted by the Church, but by the state. In both cases the acquittal rate was something like 40%, and the usage of methods like torture was far milder and more strictly controlled than any contemporary secular court.

As for the Bible: only Jews believed your slave-women were not yours, naturally, to do with as you wished. That is, out of all ancient peoples, they are the only ones who didn’t let rape exist as an institution. Considering that, why on earth wouldn’t they think their God hated all the others?

 

[JackVk]

Oh yes, let’s take the word of the world’s most famous liar.

I’m pretty sure 12th Century Muslims saw “if you invade our land (the Byzantine province of Palestine) we’ll fight you; if you deliberately provoke us during a siege we may not always react with perfect equanimity; and yet unlike you we do in fact believe—as a rule, not just the occasional magnanimity of a warrior—that noncombatants should be spared” as the Christian message. But then, I’ve actually learned the history of the Crusades.

As for “innocent victims” of the Inquisitions, the majority of people the Inquisition was preached against were members of the Cathar death cult that taught childbearing was a sin and no form of contract was valid. The rest were suspected double agents during a war of immediate peril for Spain’s survival (i.e., paranoia happens)—and that inquisition was not actually conducted by the Church, but by the state. In both cases the acquittal rate was something like 40%, and the usage of methods like torture was far milder and more strictly controlled than any contemporary secular court.

As for the Bible: only Jews believed your slave-women were not yours, naturally, to do with as you wished. That is, out of all ancient peoples, they are the only ones who didn’t let rape exist as an institution. Considering that, why on earth wouldn’t they think their God hated all the others?

The estimated deaths caused by the Inquisition total up to roughly 2,000, and that’s spread out over the course of several hundred years.

And what about Stalin and Mao? These monsters killed more people in several decades than the Church did in 2000 years, and they killed in peacetime. The objection that they didn’t kill in the name of atheism doesn’t fly, because atheism is a core concept of communism. Marxism demands that the “opiate of the masses” be eliminated to make way for the proletariat’s “inevitable dominance”. Christianity and marxism are simply incompatible one so many levels, and Karl Marx’s idea of peace was when all opponents of socialism have been eliminated.

 

[Abba]

Those who believe it is absurd to live for God don’t realise it is absurd to live for themselves. Ingratitude is not only inane but insane! It poisons one’s whole outlook on life…

BINGO!

All the arguements are protective walls to cover the inner interest. The subject even begins to believe that the walls are real and strong. I thought we bring down some of the walls first to get to the heart of the matter. But, there it is. If peope have a vested interest in X can they really and sincerely argue for a contrary cause Y or will that someone tend to see things and hold position and views that justify his/her interest?

In other words, people can be blinded. Let’s say, for an example, that I am wealthy, healthy, have an excellent career and an excellent education. I may even have some fame and power in my society and have always lived and worked to achieve MY goals. I have not dedicated much time to God or even exploring the possibility of the existence of a God.

People have different reasons as to why as children they were not guided to God. For example, maybe, their parents were rich and famous and did not have the time themselves to dedicate to God even though they believed a God existed but valued the things of this world more and more and chose to ignore living in accordance to their belief. In order to get all that fame and wealth and enjoy those things they finally ended up valuing certain things more than others. As a result, they did not have much time for the kids never mind discuss God with them. So, they get a nanny or an au pair that suits their needs and then send the kids off to boarding school when the time comes. A lot of these children end up valuing the things the parents value even if deep inside they are angry and hurt at the neglect they suffered from their parents. It’s the price to pay and they paid it.

So, what also may subtlely develop? The EGO…tatan! Me, me, me. A tremendous selfishness that is blinding to the needs of others to the point of building callous walls and, and, a sense of superiority. Ah, yes, the petty masses, they are often looked upon with scorn and disgust. A good portion of them waste their time concerned about paying bills and remain trap in that life style like rats in a maze. I am obviously a superior specie. How extraordinary I am! Darling warm up the pool and serve me some caviar. God!?! Why would I want to believe in a God that I will ultimately end up serving or living for? To give ME up? Who I AM? To help others and waste my time? I do not need to believe in God.

But, it does not stop there because ultimately being the human being that I am, I need to consider myself as ‘good’ and so I must bring down that ‘God’ or the idea of ‘God’. This is where the walls start coming up and the stories and the perception of things are marred with our personal objectives and interests.

The above is just an example of how people build walls to protect the interest of the egobut, until someone has dealt with that I find it difficult to value their objections against God and why it would be absurd to live for a God.

This me, me, me, me, grows to the point that it even seems senseless to some people, not only absurd to believe in a God that requires them to serve him but, the thought of even serving others reaches the point of being inconceivable to some people as can been seen in some threads where people ask what is the point and why should I do it. This reminds me of an Italian movie where the lunatic of the town was obviously lunatic people he went around claim the plaza was his.

I apologize, I do not have time to edit.

 

[wanstronian]

Oh yes, let’s take the word of the world’s most famous liar.

So let me get this straight: Hitler was a bad man, therefore everything he said - including statements of his belief (which nobody other than he could have truly known) is also a lie? Do you consider that a rational thought process? He professed a Christian belief in God, yet you know better than him? What, then, about his disdain for organised Christianity? Presumably this too is a lie? You can’t have it both ways.

I hope I don’t need to tell you that your objection is a non sequitur, as well as being self-defeating.

I’m pretty sure 12th Century Muslims saw “if you invade our land (the Byzantine province of Palestine) we’ll fight you; if you deliberately provoke us during a siege we may not always react with perfect equanimity; and yet unlike you we do in fact believe—as a rule, not just the occasional magnanimity of a warrior—that noncombatants should be spared” as the Christian message. But then, I’ve actually learned the history of the Crusades.

Oh, you clever old chap. But you seem to have read an apologist account of the behaviour of the crusaders. There are other accounts that tell a very different story, and mercy was not high on their list.

As for “innocent victims” of the Inquisitions, the majority of people the Inquisition was preached against were members of the Cathar death cult that taught childbearing was a sin and no form of contract was valid. The rest were suspected double agents during a war of immediate peril for Spain’s survival (i.e., paranoia happens)—and that inquisition was not actually conducted by the Church, but by the state. In both cases the acquittal rate was something like 40%, and the usage of methods like torture was far milder and more strictly controlled than any contemporary secular court.

So because the inquisitors were allegedly less inclined to torture than a secular court, their Christian message was one of love? A Tu Quoque fallacy hardly excuses their actions - and indeed, your mitigation statements are a matter of contention, not of fact.

As for the Bible: only Jews believed your slave-women were not yours, naturally, to do with as you wished. That is, out of all ancient peoples, they are the only ones who didn’t let rape exist as an institution. Considering that, why on earth wouldn’t they think their God hated all the others?

Do why did God encourage the Israelites to take the women of conquered nations to be their own property? Something doesn’t add up here.

 

[tonyrey]

BINGO!

All the arguments are protective walls to cover the inner interest. The subject even begins to believe that the walls are real and strong. I thought we bring down some of the walls first to get to the heart of the matter. But, there it is. If peope have a vested interest in X can they really and sincerely argue for a contrary cause Y or will that someone tend to see things and hold position and views that justify his/her interest?

In other words, people can be blinded. Let’s say, for an example, that I am wealthy, healthy, have an excellent career and an excellent education. I may even have some fame and power in my society and have always lived and worked to achieve MY goals. I have not dedicated much time to God or even exploring the possibility of the existence of a God.

People have different reasons as to why as children they were not guided to God. For example, maybe, their parents were rich and famous and did not have the time themselves to dedicate to God even though they believed a God existed but valued the things of this world more and more and chose to ignore living in accordance to their belief. In order to get all that fame and wealth and enjoy those things they finally ended up valuing certain things more than others. As a result, they did not have much time for the kids never mind discuss God with them. So, they get a nanny or an au pair that suits their needs and then send the kids off to boarding school when the time comes. A lot of these children end up valuing the things the parents value even if deep inside they are angry and hurt at the neglect they suffered from their parents. It’s the price to pay and they paid it.

So, what also may subtlely develop? The EGO…tatan! Me, me, me. A tremendous selfishness that is blinding to the needs of others to the point of building callous walls and, and, a sense of superiority. Ah, yes, the petty masses, they are often looked upon with scorn and disgust. A good portion of them waste their time concerned about paying bills and remain trap in that life style like rats in a maze. I am obviously a superior specie. How extraordinary I am! Darling warm up the pool and serve me some caviar. God!?! Why would I want to believe in a God that I will ultimately end up serving or living for? To give ME up? Who I AM? To help others and waste my time? I do not need to believe in God.

But, it does not stop there because ultimately being the human being that I am, I need to consider myself as ‘good’ and so I must bring down that ‘God’ or the idea of ‘God’. This is where the walls start coming up and the stories and the perception of things are marred with our personal objectives and interests.

The above is just an example of how people build walls to protect the interest of the egobut, until someone has dealt with that I find it difficult to value their objections against God and why it would be absurd to live for a God.

This me, me, me, me, grows to the point that it even seems senseless to some people, not only absurd to believe in a God that requires them to serve him but, the thought of even serving others reaches the point of being inconceivable to some people as can been seen in some threads where people ask what is the point and why should I do it. This reminds me of an Italian movie where the lunatic of the town was obviously lunatic people he went around claim the plaza was his.

I apologize, I do not have time to edit.

No need! A vehement exposé loses its force if it’s too grammatically correct.

The mere possibility that there is a Supreme Being poses a threat to some people. Their comfortable scheme of things is no longer secure. They are forced to consider whether they may be mistaken after all. Perhaps they are alive not because of blind Fate but Love. And that can be a very disturbing thought indeed! It would need a transformation of their attitude to life - and of course to other people. Much safer to stay in their cosy little bunker… :coffeeread:

 

[Altruist]

Is your screen name intended to be ironic? It’s completely at odds with your horrific comments. Do you think that people should be stoned to death these days, for working on the Sabbath? Do you really think that the evil perpetrated by somebody is passed down, without exception, for four generations?

You’re nuts.

Edit: actually, on reflection, I think you’re a troll.

Of course not. In the Bible it does not refer to whether those who were stoned to death were sorry for their sins or not, it only makes mention of their sins and corresponding punishment, so it is fair to assume that they were not sorry. In this way, the punishment, in accordance with punishing those who are not sorry for offending God, is just.

Punishment through generations makes sense as people brought up by sinners tend to be sinners themselves. Never did it say that the next generations were not sinners, or repentant sinners, or righteous. It is fair to assume that in the continuity of generations came the continuity of sin.

No irony is intended. I have simply chosen that alias as a continual reminder of the type of person that I aspire to be. Besides, what gives you the right to judge me based on your interpretation of a few of my posts? If you were to encounter me elsewhere, you would not think me to be a troll. Maybe you’re jumping around a little too quickly. Be at peace.

 

[Abba]

Speaking of expose’, I was reading Sacred Scripture and read what I will quote below. Yes, I am going to quote the whole of what I want to quote. I just want to. Sacred Scripture is inspired as noted on the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC:
II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

I think in the quote below God gives us an expose’ of the stories and events we read about in the Old Testament. God Almighty tries to communicate with us and uses an analogy, shouldn’t we try to rise above ourselves and try to understand? Let those who have ears hear? Let those who can see, see.

Jerusalem as an Adulterous Wife
Ezekiel 16 1The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her detestable practices 3 and say, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says to Jerusalem: Your ancestry and birth were in the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite. 4 On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. 5 No one looked on you with pity or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you. Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised.

6 “‘Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, “Live!”[a] 7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew and developed and entered puberty. Your breasts had formed and your hair had grown, yet you were stark naked.

8 “‘Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your naked body. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine.
9 “‘I bathed you with water and washed the blood from you and put ointments on you. 10 I clothed you with an embroidered dress and put sandals of fine leather on you. I dressed you in fine linen and covered you with costly garments. 11 I adorned you with jewelry: I put bracelets on your arms and a necklace around your neck, 12 and I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. 13 So you were adorned with gold and silver; your clothes were of fine linen and costly fabric and embroidered cloth. Your food was honey, olive oil and the finest flour. You became very beautiful and rose to be a queen. 14 And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign LORD.

15 “‘But you trusted in your beauty and used your fame to become a prostitute. You lavished your favors on anyone who passed by and your beauty became his. 16 You took some of your garments to make gaudy high places, where you carried on your prostitution. You went to him, and he possessed your beauty.** 17 You also took the fine jewelry I gave you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself male idols and engaged in prostitution with them. 18 And you took your embroidered clothes to put on them, and you offered my oil and incense before them. 19 Also the food I provided for you—the flour, olive oil and honey I gave you to eat—you offered as fragrant incense before them. That is what happened, declares the Sovereign LORD.
20 “‘And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? 21 You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. 22 In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood.**

 

[Abba]

23 “‘Woe! Woe to you, declares the Sovereign LORD. In addition to all your other wickedness, 24 you built a mound for yourself and made a lofty shrine in every public square. 25 At every street corner you built your lofty shrines and degraded your beauty, spreading your legs with increasing promiscuity to anyone who passed by. 26 You engaged in prostitution with the Egyptians, your neighbors with large genitals, and aroused my anger with your increasing promiscuity. 27 So I stretched out my hand against you and reduced your territory; I gave you over to the greed of your enemies, the daughters of the Philistines, who were shocked by your lewd conduct. 28 You engaged in prostitution with the Assyrians too, because you were insatiable; and even after that, you still were not satisfied. 29 Then you increased your promiscuity to include Babylonia,[c] a land of merchants, but even with this you were not satisfied.

30 “‘I am filled with fury against you,[d] declares the Sovereign LORD, when you do all these things, acting like a brazen prostitute! 31 When you built your mounds at every street corner and made your lofty shrines in every public square, you were unlike a prostitute, because you scorned payment.

32 “‘You adulterous wife! You prefer strangers to your own husband! 33 All prostitutes receive gifts, but you give gifts to all your lovers, bribing them to come to you from everywhere for your illicit favors. 34 So in your prostitution you are the opposite of others; no one runs after you for your favors. You are the very opposite, for you give payment and none is given to you.

35 “‘Therefore, you prostitute, hear the word of the LORD! 36 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because you poured out your lust and exposed your naked body in your promiscuity with your lovers, and because of all your detestable idols, and because you gave them your children’s blood, 37 therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see you stark naked. 38 I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring on you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger. 39 Then I will deliver you into the hands of your lovers, and they will tear down your mounds and destroy your lofty shrines. They will strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry and leave you stark naked. 40 They will bring a mob against you, who will stone you and hack you to pieces with their swords. 41 They will burn down your houses and inflict punishment on you in the sight of many women. I will put a stop to your prostitution, and you will no longer pay your lovers. 42 Then my wrath against you will subside and my jealous anger will turn away from you; I will be calm and no longer angry.

43 “‘Because you did not remember the days of your youth but enraged me with all these things, I will surely bring down on your head what you have done, declares the Sovereign LORD. Did you not add lewdness to all your other detestable practices?

44 “‘Everyone who quotes proverbs will quote this proverb about you: “Like mother, like daughter.” 45 You are a true daughter of your mother, who despised her husband and her children; and you are a true sister of your sisters, who despised their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. 46 Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom. 47 You not only followed their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they. 48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done.

49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

53 “‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. 56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. Even so, you are now scorned by the daughters of Edom[e] and all her neighbors and the daughters of the Philistines—all those around you who despise you. 58 You will bear the consequences of your lewdness and your detestable practices, declares the LORD.

 

[Abba]

59 “‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the LORD. 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”

Peace,

Abba

 

[LifeIsAbsurd]

"LIfeIsAbsurd:

The inmate’s claims would be absurd but true.

It is significant that there are no responses. Silence implies consent…

The same then holds for my argument.

PS - I have not forgotten your questions in other threads and will get back to them soon. That ‘business’ I messaged you about has kept me swamped with paperwork and errands.

 

[Abba]

The same then holds for my argument.

PS - I have not forgotten your questions in other threads and will get back to them soon. That ‘business’ I messaged you about has kept me swamped with paperwork and errands.

Hello LifeIsAbsurd - Devil’s Advocate,

I plan to respond to you. I am very busy too. Online business is booming due to the snow storm. Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow. I’ll respond…

Peace,

Abba

 

[tonyrey]

The same then holds for my argument.

Have I failed to respond to an argument of yours?

PS - I have not forgotten your questions in other threads and will get back to them soon. That ‘business’ I messaged you about has kept me swamped with paperwork and errands.

You have my sympathy based on personal experience… :twocents: