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PetraG
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If you would, explain what you meant by
I see you got a few (too many) replies to your post proving exactly what I was stating
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nogames
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Hi rondirect, Iâd be happy to explain what I mean. This forum is, as you have seen, is the âhomeâ of a lot of wonderful people of different points of view. Many of my best friends are Catholic too, so I hope that you will take my words seriously.
Attitudes can be hard to discern in a totally written forum where we canât see the faces or hear the voices of the people we are communicating with. So naturally, we can only discern attitudes by the words we are using with each other. If you read through this whole topic from the beginning, what you will find is lots of Catholics who are very confident that only the CC is the one established by God, and that only the CC has complete unity (one-ness). In addition, you will find the usual Catholic talking points, such as:
- The fact that the apostle Peter was named, ârockâ by Jesus, the keys to the kingdom were given to Peter only, and these facts, among a few others, is how we can know that there is apostolic succession in the CC alone.
- The teachings of the CC are infallible because only the CC has this infallible authority given to it by Jesus.
- The others (non-Catholics) donât have the âreal presenceâ in the Lordâs Supper; only Catholics have it.
- History is clear on the authority of the Catholic Church, so there is no historical reason to doubt this.
Those of us who have rejected Romeâs authority are often reminded (here) that our own private interpretation of the bible is not a good thing; we need the infallible authority of âThe Churchâ (guess which one) in order to understand the bible correctly.
Why is there such emphasis on the religious institution here? I have thought about this a lot over the past several years. One partial explanation: the CC has issued several ancient âclarificationsâ on the authority of the Catholic Church. Among these, are âunum sanctamâ, the bull that proclaimed, âExtra Ecclesiam nulla salusâ: âoutside of the Church, there is no salvationâ .
This isnât âchurch authorityâ, it is church abuse. Since the Catholic Church no longer supports this error, it is to be credited, but some of the lingering damage remains to this day, and it can clearly be noticed by the Catholic talking points mentioned above. The reason for my selection of this topic, is to shed some light on all of this. I want to make one last point: I donât see these âtalking pointsâ in most Catholics that I know, and most Catholics avoid âchurch worshipâ. I brought it up only because I see it here frequently.
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Wesrock
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The Church both is and isnât the institution on Earth. It is something more mysterious than that.
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Wesrock
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That actually hasnât been retracted, and it is not an error. The Church is the Body of Christ, and here I refer to not only the institution. Apart from the Body of Christ there is no salvation. All who are saved are saved through the Church.
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nogames
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Unam sanctam went a whole lot further than that. I think that this bull was from the year 1302, but I could be wrong. It was issued by pope Boniface VIII. In it, this pope was telling the world that only the Catholic Church is the body of ChristâŚwhich is exactly why it was such a shocking and controversial bull.nogames:
That actually hasnât been retracted, and it is not an error. The Church is the Body of Christ, and here I refer to not only the institution. Apart from the Body of Christ there is no salvation. All who are saved are saved through the Church.
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Wesrock
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Yes, one must belong to the Catholic Church to be saved. That is understood to be technically correct in that the Catholic Church is more than just an institution of man or a label. Everyone who is saved is done so through the Catholic Church and is part of the Catholic Church, whether or not they thought of themselves in terms such as Lutheran or Baptist or had never heard of the Church.
There are no denominations in Heaven. One belongs to the one, holy, apostolic, and universal Church. One Church.
There are no denominations in Heaven. One belongs to the one, holy, apostolic, and universal Church. One Church.
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nogames
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How did you come to know that this is true? BTW, if I believed that this is true, Iâd be a âchurch worshiperâ myself!
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rondirect
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Although I appreciate your time in your response to me, to be honest, I really do not know where you stand on being a Catholic or a non-Catholic. I have re-read your posts. In some you seem to be anti-Catholic and then in others pro-Catholic. Curious: What is your stance? What is your religious affiliation?
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nogames
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Iâm a former Catholic. I am now a nondenominational Christian, attending a Southern Baptist church. Iâm very âpro Catholicâ in terms of my love and concern for those who are devoted to the CC. But I left the CC because of some Catholic teachings that I believe are harmful and man-centered.nogames:
Although I appreciate your time in your response to me, to be honest, I really do not know where you stand on being a Catholic or a non-Catholic. I have re-read your posts. In some you seem to be anti-Catholic and then in others pro-Catholic. Curious: What is your stance? What is your religious affiliation?
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pablope
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Man centered?
Can you give an example?
Can you give an example?
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nogames
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Iâll start to answer your question by asking you a question: How do we receive Jesus, and the salvation that He provides?
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Pup7
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Seriously?
Because we donât ordain women? You know the Baptists arenât exactly accepting of ordained women, right? I canât think of her name at the moment, but I read a great article published by a very prominent female Baptist who talked about the abhorrent treatment sheâs received over the years from fellow male ministers.
Because we donât ordain women? You know the Baptists arenât exactly accepting of ordained women, right? I canât think of her name at the moment, but I read a great article published by a very prominent female Baptist who talked about the abhorrent treatment sheâs received over the years from fellow male ministers.
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nogames
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I guess my response wasnât very clear, and for that I apologize. By âman centeredâ I wasnât bringing up the issue of sexism. I meant it in the traditional and old-fashioned wayâŚin which âmanâ is referring to mankind generally rather than males only. Sorry for the confusion!
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Gab123
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Yes, Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, and the Sacrament of Confession.
But one has to realize that to those to whom much is given much much more will be required.
TheCatholic Church has all the tools, all the weapons, all the fountains of supernatural Sanctifying Grace to become saints. Thus Catholic religiosity without spiritual transformation is as effective as the religiosity of the pharisees whom Jesus excoriated.
Learning, learning, learning, without spiritual transformation leads to pride and hypocrisy. Only seeking healing healing, healing, through religion, without spiritual transformation of heart, is merely a self centered endeavor. religiosity can turn people into hypocrisy if it doesnât directly lead to spiritual transformation of heart.
If one is Catholic and wants to be obedient, it means being a Catholic 24 hour a day everywhere we are, not having a double life; Itâs about love. Love for God, and love for neighbor. Love is a choice, not a feeling. The choice is all or nothing. No room for lukewarmness. A true Catholic means a radical change in life, because in Catholicism nobody has an excuse. The supernatural grace is there in abundance, in overflowing measures, available every day.
Catholics are supposed to be Eucharistic Vessels of Reparation. The Spiritual Army of God; the Church Militant in the world. And the battle is daily, against self; against the World, the Devil and the Flesh. A sacrifice united to Christ for the conversion of sinners, In a nutshell, God wants us to become saints within our unique circumstances and places in life among the people God sends in our life and across our pathâŚ
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nogames
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The ones that passed on the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. The very early church apparently was known as âthe wayâ. There is no evidence that these early Christians had any knowledge of several Catholic teachings such as the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, transubstantiation, and others.
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Reuben_J
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If your church started five or two hundred years ago, it may not have the record of what the early church believed, did and practiced. And some books of the Bible that might refer to them, those churches just delete them from the canon of the Bible. So I can understand your predicament.
However, the Catholic Church started on day one of Christianity.
The apostle Peter was the her first Pope and his successors in an uninterrupted line up to the present Pope Francis.
Indulgence was revealed long ago in the Old Testament in 2 Sam 12 that King David, even though forgiven of his sin of murdering Uriah and taking his wife Bathsheba, still had to receive temporal punishment in the death of his first son.
Purgatory was referred to in Maccabee and St. Paul spoke about it that we have to be purified with fire.
And so too about Transubstantiation which St. Paul spoke about real body and real blood of Jesus that we eat and drink.
However, the Catholic Church started on day one of Christianity.
The apostle Peter was the her first Pope and his successors in an uninterrupted line up to the present Pope Francis.
Indulgence was revealed long ago in the Old Testament in 2 Sam 12 that King David, even though forgiven of his sin of murdering Uriah and taking his wife Bathsheba, still had to receive temporal punishment in the death of his first son.
Purgatory was referred to in Maccabee and St. Paul spoke about it that we have to be purified with fire.
And so too about Transubstantiation which St. Paul spoke about real body and real blood of Jesus that we eat and drink.
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pablope
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Through the Church that Jesus establishedâŚupon a rock, not on sand, and which that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide it into truth always.pablope:
Iâll start to answer your question by asking you a question: How do we receive Jesus, and the salvation that He provides?
SoâŚnow back to my questionâŚMan centered?
Can you give an example?
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nogames
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This is a talking point; not an answer to my question. Here is my question to you: How do we receive Jesus, and the salvation that He provides? If you will provide the specific answer to this question, then I will answer your question.
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nogames
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Yes, king David was punished for his sin of murdering Uriah and taking his wife Bathsheba. But what does king Davidâs punishment have to do with the Catholic doctrines of purgatory or indulgences?
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nogames
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Where did St. Paul tell us that we have to be purified with fire?
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