Why is it better to believe without seeing?

[AveSantaMaria]

**Maybe KingAlfred bring up a crucial, important often missed point in his last post!! **

arguing that the angels (which supposedly have far superior powers than humans) know God though direct experience, no faith involved. Humans, with their diminished mortal capacities are just to supposed to trust in the unknown.

I never did get a satisfactory answer from that thread.

Maybe that is why God exalted Christ (a human) higher than angels despite the fact that angels have far more capabilities.

“Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name above every other name. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father”** Philippians 2:7-11**

"as far as superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son, this day I have begotten you”? Or again: “I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me?” And again, when he leads the first-born into the world, he says: “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Of the angels he says: “He makes his angels winds and his ministers a fiery flame”; but of the Son: "Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom… But to which of the angels he has said: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool”? Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? ** Hebrews 1:4-8,13-14 **

May the Holy Spirit through Mary grace us with the graces that we desperately need, such as wisdom soon =) May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be adored, glorified, loved, believed, venerated, and known throughout the world, forever and ever, by all souls! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be known, believed, loved, venerated, and respected by all souls, through all time, in all creation!!

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[redhen]

There would no challenge, no trial in the face of Evil, no fight for the greater good, no test of character, no real need for our Free Will. There would have been no need for Christ’s sacrifice. You’re referring to unmeritted salvation.

1. Well, apparently the angels God created had full knowledge of Him, yet despite that, some still rebelled. So full knowledge of God does not remove free will.
2. Still begging the question in the second half of your post; why is this cognitive dissonance (belief in an unseen deity), this psychological test, this mental* trial*, so vital to a supreme deity?

 

[AveSantaMaria]

1. Still begging the question in the second half of your post; why is this cognitive dissonance (belief in an unseen deity), this psychological test, this mental* trial*, so vital to a supreme deity?

Perhaps it gives him greater ** glory.** For example, if one is choosing a group of Rhodes Scholars or Nobel Prize winners, would someone just want to choose any random person who passed no test or trial or would one want to choose someone like Reverend Martin Luther King who organized protests, was imprisoned, persecuted, etc. for the accomplishment of civil rights or someone like Gandhi who was prisoned in 1922, 1930, 1933, and 1942. Or someone like Nelson Mandela who was imprisoned. Or someone like Mother Teresa who went to a country (that wasn’t even her country - she was a British citizen of Albanian descent originally not Indian) and so suffered greatly for a moral cause.

Side note, possibly irrelevant, on Mother Teresa: Her birth name was Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu. She renamed herself after St. Therese of Liseux, the patron saint of missionaries, who lived a holy Christian life in a Carmelite convent but was too sick to be a missionary herself and died at 24 of tuberculosis. Nevertheless maybe her autobiography The Story of a Soul is reflected in Mother Teresa’s writings and life: gutenberg.org/etext/16772
Mother Teresa’s life may be a testament to the importance that God places on the holy life lived even without the recognition of the world in a Carmelite convent and the fact that God assigns Merit to us for our obedience to his will even if the rest of the world does not and one day, at the Day of Judgment, the discrepancy between those who attain Merit in the world and those who attain Merit in God’s eyes will no longer exist.

May the Holy Spirit through Mary grace us with the gifts that we most desperately need! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be glorified, adored, venerated, loved, respected, believed, and trusted in forever and ever, by all souls, in all creation! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be venerated, respected, loved, known, and believed by all, in all places, throughout all time!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, have mercy on us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[redhen]

Perhaps it gives him greater ** glory.**

It seems you are using glory in it’s denotation of renown defined as; “praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent.”

Distinct from what? Other gods? God needs praise? This sounds like one of the gods from the Greek pantheon and their human emotional traits.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

It seems you are using glory in it’s denotation of renown defined as; “praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent.”

Distinct from what? Other gods? God needs praise? This sounds like one of the gods from the Greek pantheon and their human emotional traits.

Thank you actually for all your questions. I am gaining a deeper understanding of our faith as I read this thread. Maybe someone else can explain or understands this far better than I and I am going down the wrong line of thought but I really wonder - do really need the existence of the Fulbright to ascertain that the Rhodes is good? Do we need another comparable scientific medal or peace prize to acknowledge the honor it is to receive a Nobel? Maybe even if no other country in the world existed, the Presidency of the United States might still be a distinctive position.

Another thing, maybe God does possess traits resembling human traits, not as a human, but wasn’t Christ both fully human and fully man? Aren’t we created in the image of God? Isn’t that what distinguishes us from the animals? Maybe I am going down the wrong line but it actually helped me to love God by thinking of him as both human and as God. And my priest helped me love others by seeing all humans as created in the image of Christ. So perhaps just as we are tempted to criticize God’s actions when they seem human-like, he is tempted to exalt our actions when they seem God-like. Maybe God is like the perfect and fullest human instead of being completely and utterly ununderstandable to human nature. Thus, may have helped me to understand the connection between the supernatural and the natural - as all of the natural world obeys God’s laws just as surely as the supernatural world does, which perhaps is one method by which the Catholic church figured out that slavery was wrong but appealing to natural law. Maybe a miracle is not a violation of God’s laws but a clearer manifestation of God’s laws but who knows. Hopefully, I am not being heretical and someone will correct me if I am.

Everyone who is named as mine, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.Isaiah 43:7

Adapted from the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius.

**Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord ** and by this means to save his soul. And the other things on the face of this earth are created for man and they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created. From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end and ought to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it. For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created things in all that is allowed to the choice of our free will and not prohibited to it; so that, on our part, we want not health rather than sickness, riches rather than poverty, honor rather than dishonor, long rather than short life, and so in all the rest; desiring and choosing only that which is most conducive for us to the end for which we are created.

**Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius: ** nwjesuits.org/JesuitSpirituality/SpiritualExercises.html

May the Holy Spirit through Mary grace us with the gifts that we most desperately need, particularly understanding, love, and courage. May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be glorified, loved, respected, believed, known, and trust in through all time, by all souls, in all of creation! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be known, venerated, believed, loved, and respected by all souls, in all creation, in all time!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[onenow1]

Hi, All
"Because if we saw God that would be the Alpha and the Omega !
And as we can plainly see creating is still going on ! "

"The son of God has been witnessed by many as stated in the gospels, that should be enough for faith. "

“God in heaven wrapped for us beautiful package called the universe, and His presence will be opened to those who obey His commands, I think like all fathers he loves to give surprises to His children” !

" I can’t wait for the big surprise !!! God indeed has a sense of humor dont’cha think ? For we are made in His image and I know most of us have a sense of humor "

Matthew 27​

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split;
52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

Quote= onenow1 The Son of God has conqured death, and reopened the gates of paradise, no boundries no borders, basically one command to obey, love thy neighbor even as Jesus, Trinity ] has loved us. This indeed will fullfil the rest of the commands of Jesus written in OT scriptures and fuffiled in Jesus’s life as presented to us in the NT Gospels. Past, Present and future.

Peace, onenow1 And A Blessed New Year To All

 

[redhen]

Hi, All
"Because if we saw God that would be the Alpha and the Omega

Again, the angels have full knowledge of God. Does that mean that’s the end (Omega) ?

And as we can plainly see creating is still going on ! "

Yes, it’s called heredity,biological variation, natural selection, geology and astrophysics.

"The son of God has been witnessed by many as stated in the gospels, that should be enough for faith. "

That’s not an answer to the original question: “Why is it better to believe without seeing?”

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Yes, it’s called heredity,biological variation, natural selection, geology and astrophysics

Maybe these are compatible w/ faith

Mendel laid the mathematical foundations of genetics, was a Catholic Monk elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868.
Galilleo a devout Catholic, his daughters were nuns

Other famous religious scientists: Nicholas Copernicus, Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He referred to God in his works and saw no conflict with his system and the Bible. Catholic

Sir Francis Bacon, established scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. *“It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth of philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity.” * Catholic

Johannes Kepler - mathematician and astronomer - established the laws of planetary motion about the sun and came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity well before Newton was born. Lutheran

Galileo said “the bible cannot err” and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts. Catholic

Rene Descartes - deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic - “I think therefore I am” - tried to establish the near certainty of the existence of God for he had a belief that only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God was central to his whole philosophy.

Issac Newton - did a lot of work on biblical numerology, In Principia he stated, “The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being.”

Robert Boyle - "Boyle’s Law for gasses. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: “By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures or sermons which still continue, 'for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels,” - as a devout Protestant he took interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690, he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso and wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty.

Michael Faraday - work on electricity and magnetisim revolutionisted physics and led to things like computers - devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians (originate from Presbyterians)

William Kelvin - British scientist who helped lay foundations of modern physics. The Encyclopedia Britannica" says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir Issac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions. He was an Old Earth creationist, a deep Christian just like his fellow scientists Gerorge Gabriel Stokes and James Clerk Maxwell.

Max Planx - best known for quantum theory expressed the view that God is everywhere present and “the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols”. He was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death. Both science and religion wage a “tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstion” with the goal “toward God!”

Albert Einstein - “I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details.” Einstein’s famous ephitet on the “uncertainty principle” was “God does not play dice” and “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html

The teaching assistant for my stochastic processes class during my Stats masters was an extremely devout Catholic who rigorously led graduate bible study. Maybe stochastic processes is near theology, studying seeming randomness, one rigorously studies physical laws and one moral laws?

May the Holy Spirit through Mary grant us the graces that we need! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be glorified, loved, believed, adored, trusted in, and known in all ages, by all souls, in all creation! May the WONDERS of Mary be loved, believed, venerated, known, and respected by all souls, in all places, in all time!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world. For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world. For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Maybe even this is a stupid idea but it just popped into my mind - doesn’t the idea of evolution sound like the idea of Merit. The best keep getting better; the worst die out? I don’t have any idea what I’m talking about!! To him who has, more will be given. To him who has not, even the little he has will be taken away.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[redhen]

Maybe even this is a stupid idea but it just popped into my mind - doesn’t the idea of evolution sound like the idea of Merit. The best keep getting better; the worst die out? I don’t have any idea what I’m talking about!! To him who has, more will be given. To him who has not, even the little he has will be taken away.

This sounds naturalistic to me. Again, heredity → variation → natural selection → speciation (macro evolution). This process does not posit a creator deity.

Anyways, getting back to your idea of merit; why would believing without seeing cause great merit? Why is belief in an unseen deity so** vital **to God’s plan?

 

[redhen]

Anyways, getting back to your idea of merit; why would believing without seeing cause great merit? Why is belief in an unseen deity so** vital **to God’s plan?

…bump,

Can anyone explain this for me, or point to a link that does?

I think it’s an important point, that so far has gone unanswered.

Thanks

 

[ASD]

I think this is a good question.

To rephrase a little, why doesn’t God reveal Himself to me now in a clear way, in some way that could be described as evidence or proof?

The answer I have come up with is pretty simple: Christianity is a religion of love, not knowledge.

When we say that we have faith in God or that we trust God or that we believe in God, what me mean is something like

I believe in my friend, whom I love.

rather than

The evidence leads me to believe that the population of Cerulean Warblers is declining.

The second statement, obviously, will be strengthened by data, numbers, evidence. But that’s not true of the first statement.

For example, if I say that I believe in my friend because I have a video showing that he did the right thing, I’m not really saying much, right? On the other hand, if I have no such evidence, I’m saying and doing something of real significance.

IHTH. ASD​

The Great Pedagogical Triangle

 

[redhen]

Thanks for the reply.

The answer I have come up with is pretty simple: Christianity is a religion of love, not knowledge.

You could say that about other religions as well.

For example, if I say that I believe in my friend because I have a video showing that he did the right thing, I’m not really saying much, right? On the other hand, if I have no such evidence, I’m saying and doing something of real significance.

Well this explains what trust or faith means, but it still doesn’t answer the original poster’s question. Why is such great emphasis placed on faith in the unknown? In fact, an individual’s eternal salvation hinges upon it. You see how this looks to the atheist as just a snake oil scam?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Well this explains what trust or faith means, but it still doesn’t answer the original poster’s question. Why is such great emphasis placed on faith in the unknown? In fact, an individual’s eternal salvation hinges upon it. You see how this looks to the atheist as just a snake oil scam?

Yes I can see why it looks like a snake oil scam.

It seems that for most people who believe, it’s not because they have scientifically weighed the evidence, it’s because they read about Jesus in the bible and they love Him. So it’s an emotional thing.

Maybe God prefers to have people following him out of love and wishful thinking, than out of direct knowledge?

Maybe if we had absolute proof about God, everyone would believe, both the people who love Him, and the people who hate Him but are afraid of Him.

 

[redhen]

Maybe God prefers to have people following him out of love and wishful thinking, than out of direct knowledge?

Why would God prefer to have powerful angelic beings have full knowledge of him, yet demand faith in the unknown for lesser mortal humans?

Maybe if we had absolute proof about God, everyone would believe, both the people who love Him, and the people who hate Him but are afraid of Him.

Again, just like the angels who had full knowledge **and **free will, yet still rebelled.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Why is belief in an unseen deity so vital to God’s plan?

Maybe it manifests glory and provides a standard of truth, love and justice. Theology of saints, Popes, Bible, Cathechism and my own life might make me think that Catholicism is similar to mathematics in nature. Maybe I am misapplying real analysis now but when I took a class on this, for the first time I questioned why 1+1=2. Previously, I accepted it on faith. Had I questioned it prior to classes in mathematics, I might not have understood the answers anyways. Now I read Catholic theology and have had mystic experiences and things make more sense to me than before: e.g. the concept of the Eucharist and the idea of sacrifice. But it is after reading St. Louis Mary de Montfort’s
True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin ewtn.com/library/montfort/truedevo.htm and The Love of Eternal Wisdom ewtn.com/library/Montfort/lew.htm much of St. Margaret Mary Alacoque’s
Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus en.wikisource.org/wiki/Devotion_to_the_Sacred_Heart_of_Jesus. a Vatican Apostolic Letter Salvifici Doloris of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II To the Bishops, To The Priests, To the Religious Families, and to the Faithful Of the Catholic Church on the *Christian Meaning of Human Suffering * vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html remarkable commentary by BarbaraTherese on this forum, learning about the life of St. Francis of Assisi, researching the Lanciano Eucharistic miracles, and reading a random EWTN article (Theology for Beginners: Eucharist and Mass) ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SHEEDEUC.HTM reading about the Handmaids of the Eucharist prayer in the Kyoto, Japan apparition before I really grasped more of the fullness of the meaning of the Eucharist. Before I read the details of the messages of the various Marian apparitions and investigated the effects of ignoring these apparitions, such as the Kyoto Japan apparition, the Rwanda apparition, and the Fatima apparition, **Secret of the Rosary ** montfort.org.uk/Writings/Rosary.html by St. Louis Mary de Montfort or
True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin ewtn.com/library/montfort/truedevo.htm by St. Louis Mary de Montfort, I did not grasp either much of the meaning, signifiance, and value of the Rosary.

*Did I have to grasp the fullness of the Eucharist in order to benefit from receiving the Blessed Sacrament? * No, I came back to the church primarily from receiving the effects of the Eucharist and Rosary and deciding to accept a faith whose sacraments had such power without at that time having an intellectual understanding of why the power existed. Neither might I need to understand why 1 + 1 =2 for daily life. Once the rules are learned, maybe one can do much without knowing why they exist in both mathematics and Catholicism. Maybe an example is the perhaps mathematical (may I be corrected if I am overvaluing/overestimating/misusing this doctrine) consistency of the Catholic doctrine on pro-life that has been applied consistently to abortion, homosexual marriage, slavery catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0006.html , genocide and anti-death penalty for prisoners on death row all at the morally proper times. (As the Jewish Virtual Library stated, the Catholic Church was the ONLY church that consistently opposed forced sterilization of the mentally ill during the Holocaust because of this pro-life doctrine jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/disabled.html) And some research suggests that many of the Judeo-Christian moral laws provided for the advancement of Western Civilization, despite the fact that the people did not understand what the future consequences of these laws would be, See here: catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0003.html Maybe these moral laws paved the way for the creation of science by freeing man from his animalistic impulses. Maybe the Catholic Church often shelters science, but do I always need to understand exactly how it does so for this to benefit mankind?

May the Holy Spirit through Mary grant us with the graces that we desperately need, particularly love, wisdom, courage, faith, and discernment! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be adored, glorified, venerated, loved, trusted in, respected, believed and known now and forever, in all places, by all souls! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be loved, known, respected, and venerated by all souls, for all time, in all creation!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Why is belief in an unseen deity so vital to God’s plan?

Two other possibly wrong thoughts: love and justice.
The previous poster ASD hit on something that may be extremely key. LOVE because as 1 Corinthians says Love always trusts so our default attitude should be trust (innocent until proven guilty) anyways, and faith works to develop, enrich, and perfect love. LOVE also because full knowledge may not be complete and perfected love; if we get married to a spouse is a pre-nuptial and a legal agreement on the daily requirements for each spouse that each spouse must fulfill lest the marriage be declared null and void LOVE or slavery/control.

JUSTICE because perhaps God wants to use us for his glory, and wants to create a beautiful work through us. Now, (adapted from the ideas of St. Therese of Liseux) if we create a garden we can find both roses and daffodils. Perhaps faith, hope, and love are the only things available to all people and thus the only fair standards for God to assign merit, which he uses in his justice to create his beautiful work (ascertain who in eternal life will be the figurative rose and who will be the figurative daffodil) Fair because they are freely open to all - the mighty and the lowly - and can be pursued in the extent desired - whether one chooses to join a Militia of the Immaculata organization in the States (consecration.com or miyouth.org) or travel to an Islamic country and spend life as a missionary or say the Most Holy Rosary, Divine Office, the Litany of Humility ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/humility.htm , Ave Maris Stella preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/BVM/AveMarisStella.html and/or the Divine Mercy chaplet ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm and attend Daily Mass daily and Confession weekly.

May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary grace us with the gifts that we most desperately need, particularly faith hope and love. May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be known, glorified, adored, loved, venerated, believed, trusted in now and always, in all creation, by all souls!! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be known, venerated, loved, believed, and respected by all souls, in all of time, in all places!! AMEN!! AMEN!! AMEN!!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Why would God prefer to have powerful angelic beings have full knowledge of him, yet demand faith in the unknown for lesser mortal humans?

Again, just like the angels who had full knowledge **and **free will, yet still rebelled.

I don’t think we know enough about angels (or people for that matter) to understand why. Just because we don’t know why its different for angels, doesn’t mean that there isn’t a good reason.

 

[Nick9]

I go with the argument that if we saw God we would be forced to believe in Him and so wouldn’t come to Him solely because we wanted to, i.e. freely. I see it as God giving us enough evidence to see His existence as a strong possibility and then giving us the choice whether we want to be with Him or not. This allows us to make a free and loving choice. There is just the right amount of evidence to enable us to accept or reject God’s existence freely according to whether we want Him, which includes whether we want to accept His moral laws.

As to angels, maybe they don’t fear like we do, in that they lack emotion (which requires a body), and so can make a free choice even though they know that God exists, based entirely on whether they want God and all that He offers or want to rule themselves.

Those who have already made a free choice for God can then be shown further proof of His existence, like the miracles that Jesus performed only for those who had faith and not to create faith. Just ideas…

 

[Tigg]

With all respect, this looks like circular reasoning. “Why is faith important?” “Because believing without seeing (faith) is to manifest faith.”

see what I mean? It still begs the question; why is belief without seeing so vital to an omnipotent, omniscient, creator of the universe, the most powerful thing in the cosmos who could change any part of His creation immediately, impart supernatural knowledge of His existence to humans (like He did with angels supposedly).Yet the most important thing He demands of humans is to believe in His existence merely by hoping He exists.

This really sounds like a P.T. Barnum scheme.

We are in very deep waters…perhaps we’ll get some insight if we approach it in another way…let’s ponder upon these things: Our God is transcendent and spirit. There are different kinds of “sight.” We look through human eyes and yet the essence of understanding what we see is not physical; it goes beyond the sight of the thing which we see to the faculties of the soul which are knowledge, understanding and the will to accept what we see or reject it. I know what I’m trying to say, but it’s difficult to put into words…let me tell you a true story…

A 14 year old pagan child enters a Catholic Church which is darkened - she is alone and sees only the flickering candles and the tabernacle behind the center of the altar…she’s never been in this place before and does not know what she is seeing or what it means. She is slightly fearful. Her eyes are drawn to the little “box” (the tabernacle) and she suddenly understands that this place is holy! How does she know this? She has never received any religious instruction, is unbaptized and does not know who “God” is because she’s never been told. Yet she has an overwhelming sense that she must fall on her knees before this little box. I think she is seeing through the eyes of the Spirit and her “vision” of the candles and altar have gone way beyond what she is seeing with her eyes. She is seeing, rather, with “spiritual eyes” for the very first time. She is drawn to the little box and knows without a doubt there is something there she must find out about. And eventually she approaches a Catholic priest to ask her questions.

The child is myself.

Open the faculties of your heart (the very essence of your being.) You cannot possibly believe anything on your own. You will indeed, “see,” but the understanding will be without your eyes.

Yet the most important thing He demands of humans is to believe in His existence merely by hoping He exists.

I think this is an untrue statement. Hope and faith are gifts of the Spirit; freely ours for the asking, if the asking is done in sincerity and with humility of heart. We cannot achieve it on our own.