S
Splinker
Guest
And what does it mean to “see the Son?” Do I have to simply be told about Jesus, or do I have to believe in my heart that he is the Son of God?
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B
BenBornAgain
Guest
To see the Son is to discern that he is truly the Son sent by the Father
"Then Jesus cried aloud: “Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in him who sent me. And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.” Jn 12:44-45
"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
Jn 14:9
"Then Jesus cried aloud: “Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in him who sent me. And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.” Jn 12:44-45
"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
Jn 14:9
S
st_someone
Guest
In the Gospel according to John, Jesus states that if the people (Jews) read and understood Moses then they WOULD recognize Jesus as He is the ONE to whom Moses referred.
What this means is that the writings of the Old Testament are absolutely written from, through and about the very same God/Eternal Truth. The terminology is sometimes different but the meaning of words like “Law of the Lord” in the OT is exactly the same meaning as “Kingdom of God” by Jesus and “Mind of Christ” as used by St Paul in the NT.
If we read the bible with a bit of a new perception, a perception that is more centered in principles being evoked and processes, then something dawns on us.
The Trinity is written of extensively in the OT and in the NT but NEVER called such.
The entire book of Deuteronomy (perhaps more) is a moving dramatic picture of HOW the Law of the Lord (Mind of Christ) works. It’s a schematic diagram of the laws of LIFE.
If a Jew reading Moses (the first 5 books of the Bible) understood the spiritual layout/meaning of those books he would indeed recognize it in the NT also and would know the Living Christ in actual fact…directly. He would see the connections between Genesis and John’ Gospel, he would see the recurring patterns of 3 and 7 and how they operate. He would be drinking from the “waters of Life”.
Not many do…just as not many Catholics do. For most of us it’s a religion that we are only scratching the surface of and so not really understanding the interconnections and relationships.
So, by the same Token, if a Catholic reading the scriptures did not recognize the Living Christ in the meanings of the OT then he would be a mirror image of the Jew who doesn’t get it.
When reading the scriptures it’s helpful to realize that it is more than a history…much more. It is a holographic text, if you will, packed with the same few eternal principles that make up all of Life. It is written not only about these principles (eternal life) but written USING these principles…truly the Word of God.
What this means is that the writings of the Old Testament are absolutely written from, through and about the very same God/Eternal Truth. The terminology is sometimes different but the meaning of words like “Law of the Lord” in the OT is exactly the same meaning as “Kingdom of God” by Jesus and “Mind of Christ” as used by St Paul in the NT.
If we read the bible with a bit of a new perception, a perception that is more centered in principles being evoked and processes, then something dawns on us.
The Trinity is written of extensively in the OT and in the NT but NEVER called such.
The entire book of Deuteronomy (perhaps more) is a moving dramatic picture of HOW the Law of the Lord (Mind of Christ) works. It’s a schematic diagram of the laws of LIFE.
If a Jew reading Moses (the first 5 books of the Bible) understood the spiritual layout/meaning of those books he would indeed recognize it in the NT also and would know the Living Christ in actual fact…directly. He would see the connections between Genesis and John’ Gospel, he would see the recurring patterns of 3 and 7 and how they operate. He would be drinking from the “waters of Life”.
Not many do…just as not many Catholics do. For most of us it’s a religion that we are only scratching the surface of and so not really understanding the interconnections and relationships.
So, by the same Token, if a Catholic reading the scriptures did not recognize the Living Christ in the meanings of the OT then he would be a mirror image of the Jew who doesn’t get it.
When reading the scriptures it’s helpful to realize that it is more than a history…much more. It is a holographic text, if you will, packed with the same few eternal principles that make up all of Life. It is written not only about these principles (eternal life) but written USING these principles…truly the Word of God.
S
st_someone
Guest
These are the kinds of questions that lead to real faith and true knowledge.And what does it mean to “see the Son?” Do I have to simply be told about Jesus, or do I have to believe in my heart that he is the Son of God?
No assumptions, no blind believing but a true inquiry into what the mystery might be.
I would never do the diservice of answering outright because i can’t and and because if i could it would stop the soul engines from producing the kind of heat needed to take the answer to it’s useful point.
I would say that it’s beneficial to meditate on the idea of “Son”. What is a son?
Son always is dependant on Parent or the meaning “son” is useless.
Son is always OF the SAME as his parents substance.
Son is a generation away from his Parents.
Scale. As above, so below *also means *as below, so above…which are completely in line with the 3 scriptural passages supplied by Ben.
S
st_someone
Guest
The scriptures can’t be wrong. Our understanding might be off but the scriptures are the “Law of the Lord”…the Word of God.And what if the scripture are wrong? and why cant it be wrong?
You’ll ask for proof and I’ll ask you what could i possibly supply to you that would convince you? You would have to have a kernel of Truth to recognize the same and if you don’t then no matter if Jesus knocked on your door and told you the scriptures were true, you wouldn’t believe.
They are true and if you allow yourself to enter into them with at least a willingness to go God-ward, then by the very same immutable fact of GOD, you will be helped to the next step. We are not living in a vaacuum.
S
st_someone
Guest
Yes.Recognition of Christ is recognition of the True God. Rejection of Christ is the rejection of the True God.
Any Jew following his faith to the full will eventually see the very same God in Jesus Christ.
…And any Catholic following his faith to the full will see Christ in the Old Testament.
To engage in the commandments actively, wholeheartedly, is to enter into LIFE.
I did not say we can do it successfully but that we engage wholeheartedly.
It’s the intent and direction of our powers that count. Christ is in His commandments.
He came to show us God’s mercy is not disconnected from his Justice. His forgiveness is dependant on our forgiving others. He is toward us if we are toward Him.
L
Lycorth
Guest
If by “recognize” you mean “come to faith in”, then it’s necessary for salvation, Gentile or Jew.
S
st_someone
Guest
Yes. but there is no “Jew” or “Gentile” in this God of the Living. There is only Christ, the One of Whom we partake.If by “recognize” you mean “come to faith in”, then it’s necessary for salvation, Gentile or Jew.
The ‘recognition’ won’t even happen unless there is great faith. This is why it is usually easier for a Christian to recognize Christ in the OT then a Jew to recognize Jesus as Christ. The NT is more of a ‘revealing’ and unveiling of the OT and so easier to understand.
So any labels will be beside the point once you enter into the Living Stream as it’s at the expense of these labels.
A “Jew” is no longer a “Jew” in Christ. He’s new…as we all are in Him.
L
Lycorth
Guest
So very true.Yes. but there is no “Jew” or “Gentile” in this God of the Living. There is only Christ, the One of Whom we partake.
The ‘recognition’ won’t even happen unless there is great faith. This is why it is usually easier for a Christian to recognize Christ in the OT then a Jew to recognize Jesus as Christ. The NT is more of a ‘revealing’ and unveiling of the OT and so easier to understand.
So any labels will be beside the point once you enter into the Living Stream as it’s at the expense of these labels.
A “Jew” is no longer a “Jew” in Christ. He’s new…as we all are in Him.
H
Hosh
Guest
The point was that you can’t really debate faith. If you could it wouldn’t be faith it would be facts. If Jesus knocked on my door and started performing miracles that could only be explainable by being the son of god I would become a christian. I don’t deny Christ as being the son of god I only think there is not enough evidence to say so in the same way I don’t accept or deny the existence of a historical Moses.The scriptures can’t be wrong. Our understanding might be off but the scriptures are the “Law of the Lord”…the Word of God.
You’ll ask for proof and I’ll ask you what could i possibly supply to you that would convince you? You would have to have a kernel of Truth to recognize the same and if you don’t then no matter if Jesus knocked on your door and told you the scriptures were true, you wouldn’t believe.
They are true and if you allow yourself to enter into them with at least a willingness to go God-ward, then by the very same immutable fact of GOD, you will be helped to the next step. We are not living in a vaacuum.
S
st_someone
Guest
So true that we can’t debate faith…if i were talking to an atheist…BUT seeing as we both have faith, and both have faith in the ONE Lord of Life THEN we can talk/debate whether in fact they are the SAME Lord.The point was that you can’t really debate faith. If you could it wouldn’t be faith it would be facts. If Jesus knocked on my door and started performing miracles that could only be explainable by being the son of god I would become a christian. I don’t deny Christ as being the son of god I only think there is not enough evidence to say so in the same way I don’t accept or deny the existence of a historical Moses.
If the OT God is true- and HE IS- then by following Him and understanding what Moses was showing us ABOUT this GOD , then it will be plain as day that the NT God is the very same ONE.
I do not mean to be flippant over our very real misunderstandings for ages as it’s not obvious. It can be seen by realizing there are movements from one level to another as in a telescope from the very small to the very large by means of mathematical extensions.
If you knew that the Lord of Life was beyond description and words and yet could see that He was tracable by definate laws and patterns applicable on every strata of life and if you wanted this information to be passed down for all time how would you do it?
Your safest bet would be to plant it in songs, stories, rituals.
It boils down to reading/discerning the writing on the wall…For the sake of 1000’s of years of debate i will cut through and say that there is definately “writing on the walls” in all of scripture.
Everything in the LORD has meaning. Everything. Numbers have meanings. Names have meanings. The way people and events relate have meanings. These meanings are all connected in very lawful ways (patterns). The patterns are the movements of the LORD. We are all participating in these movements when we give our ascent to God.
If we could see the absolute splendour and awesome scope of the death of Christ by it’s being a constant and eternal truth about God we would recongize Him in the OT as such.
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BenBornAgain
Guest
Not sure the term “label” applies to the fact to be Jewish…Yes. but there is no “Jew” or “Gentile” in this God of the Living. There is only Christ, the One of Whom we partake.
The ‘recognition’ won’t even happen unless there is great faith. This is why it is usually easier for a Christian to recognize Christ in the OT then a Jew to recognize Jesus as Christ. The NT is more of a ‘revealing’ and unveiling of the OT and so easier to understand.
So any labels will be beside the point once you enter into the Living Stream as it’s at the expense of these labels.
A “Jew” is no longer a “Jew” in Christ. He’s new…as we all are in Him.
B
BenBornAgain
Guest
I guess you affirm yourself that your eventual faith in Jesus would be the consequence of facts like miracles he would do before you.The point was that you can’t really debate faith. If you could it wouldn’t be faith it would be facts. If Jesus knocked on my door and started performing miracles that could only be explainable by being the son of god I would become a christian. I don’t deny Christ as being the son of god I only think there is not enough evidence to say so in the same way I don’t accept or deny the existence of a historical Moses.
You cannot even believe (trust Him and His word) in God and keep the commandements if you don’t know the fact of his existence.
Thus the question for you as a Jew seems to me this one :
given the fact of the existence of Jesus, his teaching, his miracles, his death and his resurrection,(which are historic facts) is he the Messiah, the Prophet announced by Moses?
S
st_someone
Guest
Galatians 3:28.Not sure the term “label” applies to the fact to be Jewish…
Label as in different from non-Jew.
H
Hosh
Guest
“Eventual” would imply that Jesus is coming back within my lifetime, no?I guess you affirm yourself that your eventual faith in Jesus would be the consequence of facts like miracles he would do before you.
You cannot even believe (trust Him and His word) in God and keep the commandements if you don’t know the fact of his existence.
Thus the question for you as a Jew seems to me this one :
given the fact of the existence of Jesus, his teaching, his miracles, his death and his resurrection,(which are historic facts) is he the Messiah, the Prophet announced by Moses?
I don’t think those “facts” have been adequately corroborated.
And I’m not explicitly sure about what Moses said, but what the other prophets said negate Jesus being the messiah.
B
BenBornAgain
Guest
My prayer and my hope is that Jesus would come back in our lifetime…
You write:"I don’t deny Christ as being the son of god I only think there is not enough evidence to say so in the same way I don’t accept or deny the existence of a historical Moses. "
I may be wrong but it seems to me that you adopt a kind of agnostic attitude even toward your own faith…
The very core of the Revelation of God to Israel is His manifestation in history, in the very life of Israel, in other words it is a fact. From the Red Sea to the Glory filling the Temple, God manifests himself concretely, and He still does…
You write:"I don’t deny Christ as being the son of god I only think there is not enough evidence to say so in the same way I don’t accept or deny the existence of a historical Moses. "
I may be wrong but it seems to me that you adopt a kind of agnostic attitude even toward your own faith…
The very core of the Revelation of God to Israel is His manifestation in history, in the very life of Israel, in other words it is a fact. From the Red Sea to the Glory filling the Temple, God manifests himself concretely, and He still does…
7
7_Sorrows
Guest
can you quote specific scripture that explains your last statement?“Eventual” would imply that Jesus is coming back within my lifetime, no?
I don’t think those “facts” have been adequately corroborated.
And I’m not explicitly sure about what Moses said, but what the other prophets said negate Jesus being the messiah.
H
Hosh
Guest
I’m not Agnostic but I take the bible as the history of mans relationship with god as revealed by manMy prayer and my hope is that Jesus would come back in our lifetime…
You write:"I don’t deny Christ as being the son of god I only think there is not enough evidence to say so in the same way I don’t accept or deny the existence of a historical Moses. "
I may be wrong but it seems to me that you adopt a kind of agnostic attitude even toward your own faith…
The very core of the Revelation of God to Israel is His manifestation in history, in the very life of Israel, in other words it is a fact. From the Red Sea to the Glory filling the Temple, God manifests himself concretely, and He still does…
Wikipedia can do that for me.can you quote specific scripture that explains your last statement?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
They’re only facts if you take the Christian scriptures as being, in some sense, ‘reportage’, if you don’t then it’s just pious fiction.I guess you affirm yourself that your eventual faith in Jesus would be the consequence of facts like miracles he would do before you.
You cannot even believe (trust Him and His word) in God and keep the commandements if you don’t know the fact of his existence.
Thus the question for you as a Jew seems to me this one :
given the fact of the existence of Jesus, his teaching, his miracles, his death and his resurrection,(which are historic facts) is he the Messiah, the Prophet announced by Moses?
7
7_Sorrows
Guest
what did you search under in wikipedia may i ask then? you aren’t being very specific.I’m not Agnostic but I take the bible as the history of mans relationship with god as revealed by man
Wikipedia can do that for me.
to which prophets are you referring?
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