Why is it so easy for the Latin Church to lose its traditions while the Eastern Churches do not?

[Phillip_Rolfes]

As others have pointed out, Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox both have their share of struggles when it comes to maintaining tradition, liturgical abuses, and whatever else. I can’t speak too much for the Eastern Orthodox as my experiences in their parishes are rather limited (but not non-existent).

Eastern Catholics, for their part, struggle with bad translations, bad recensions, clericalism, Latinization, and a whole host of other issues. I’ve heard that in South America some Melkite parishes have moved the altar into the midst of the congregation and have “guitar Divine Liturgies” the same way the Romans have “guitar Masses.” Fortunately that’s not a problem that the Melkites in the U.S. have.

The Ruthenians here in the U.S. have had their own struggles over the current official (revised) translation that was issued by their Metropolia several years back. I know in certain areas they have lost large numbers of parishioners over this new revised translation (and its accompanying music). To an outsider visiting a Divine Liturgy for the first (or second time) or to someone who never experienced a Ruthenian Divine Liturgy prior to the revision, one might get the misconception that this is the way they’ve always done liturgy. That was my own misconception prior to deeper experience and knowledge of the Eastern Churches.

I know too that the Maronites have had their own struggles within their tradition, but others more knowledgeable than I have already commented on the struggles of the Maronite Church in other threads.

Long story short, every single Church has their set of issues and struggles. Just because things may look better to an outsider, doesn’t mean that we don’t have such failures to maintain tradition going on. Believe me, we do.

 

[malphono]

I’ve heard that in South America some Melkite parishes have moved the altar into the midst of the congregation and have “guitar Divine Liturgies” the same way the Romans have “guitar Masses.” Fortunately that’s not a problem that the Melkites in the U.S. have.

Not only in South America. I’ve seen broadcasts of this from Lebanon too. Almost as striking as the versus populum table is the total absence of even a portable iconostasis. As far as the US goes, I don’t know the current dynamic, but such things did happen in the happy-go-lucky '70s (perpetrated in some case by clergy that would probably surprise you).

I know too that the Maronites have had their own struggles within their tradition, but others more knowledgeable than I have already commented on the struggles of the Maronite Church in other threads.

Long story short, every single Church has their set of issues and struggles. Just because things may look better to an outsider, doesn’t mean that we don’t have such failures to maintain tradition going on. Believe me, we do.

Yeah, this is very much a case of “the grass is always greener on the other side” or so it seems to me. In truth, it ain’t greener at all, unless by “greener” one means moldy or beslimed.

Admittedly, with the exception of the Ruthenian RDL controversy and the Melkites using the versus populum table, etc, (and perhaps a couple others), the East is far less affected than the Latins. The Orient, OTOH, is in bad shape. From what I gather, about the only Church that is basically free of the problem is the Syro-Malankara. Though I really can’t say much about the Armenian CC, the rest, Maronite, Coptic CC, Syriac CC, Syro-Malabar, and Ethopian CC most definitely are affected, albeit to varying degrees. So, too, the Chaldeans who, despite the efforts of their Holy Synod, are still affected in various ways, the degree depending on the diocese.

The interesting part is that this has blossomed into what it has become in post-concilar (and post-Novus Ordo) years. In former times, and despite a certain amount of latinization, (more in some Churches, less in others), traditions were generally respected. They may not have been perfectly preserved in all cases, but at least they were recognizable for what they were. Shame is that (with the partial exception of some of the latinizations that crept in over the years and had become imported “traditions” themselves) that’s no longer the case.

 

[twf]

Can you give an example of failure due to non-flexibility? I’m curious.

I have heard about concessions being made in some African countries for dance and other cultural things, while at the same time the FSSP is also in Africa.

youtube.com/watch?v=2ACWfQBYTZM

So I’m curious as to whether one way s more effective than the other.

I’m not sure what sort of “dance” has been tolerated within the Roman Rite in Africa, but I strongly believe that reverent, ritualistic dance does have its place in African worship; at the same time, I strongly oppose all forms of liturgical dance in the West - it has no place in our tradition. To prove my point, look up the Ethiopian Orthodox liturgy on YouTube - you’ll see that a reverent, ritualistic “sway” (not sure what else to call it) is part of their ancient and venerable tradition during certain parts of the eucharistic liturgy. As is the use of liturgical drums. The Ethopian Rite, which is also celebrated in the Catholic Church (Ethiopian Catholic Church sui iuris), is probably the most authentic expression of Sub-Saharan African Christianity as it is of apostolic origins and is truly native to Africa, while the Roman Rite and the various forms of Protestantism are post-colonial “imports”.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Can you give an example of failure due to non-flexibility? I’m curious.

I have heard about concessions being made in some African countries for dance and other cultural things, while at the same time the FSSP is also in Africa.

youtube.com/watch?v=2ACWfQBYTZM

So I’m curious as to whether one way s more effective than the other.

Often it is flexibility that has killed tradition. In our case, the traditional Crowning ceremony gets pushed aside because the bride wants her father to walk her down the aisle, instead of the priest walking the bride and groom towards the iconostas. Or course this problem is more prevalent here in North America where western culture has dictated how certain religious ceremonies are to happen than back in the “motherland”.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Often it is flexibility that has killed tradition. In our case, the traditional Crowning ceremony gets pushed aside because the bride wants her father to walk her down the aisle, instead of the priest walking the bride and groom towards the iconostas. Or course this problem is more prevalent here in North America where western culture has dictated how certain religious ceremonies are to happen than back in the “motherland”.

St. Elias - Brampton must be an oasis of tradition, then, as none of their videos of crownings show anything other than utmost respect for and adherence to it (Ukrainian Greek Catholic tradition, of course).

 

[TEPO]

Why is it so easy for western churches to lose their traditions when the eastern churches can hold onto theirs for such a long time?

Because the East is the final frontier…

 

[LoyalViews]

The problems of the Eastern Churches go beyond Latinizations. I’ve seen concessions made to placate parishioners and sacrifice tradition. Latinization has nothing to do with it. Some feel that its better to sacrifice tradition rather than drive some out of the Church. I don’t know, I can understand if its done because of ekonomia. But often it becomes a precedent.

Thanks for this. I never thought of it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

St. Elias - Brampton must be an oasis of tradition, then, as none of their videos of crownings show anything other than utmost respect for and adherence to it (Ukrainian Greek Catholic tradition, of course).

Well, without saying too much, I’ve heard comments that their traditions aren’t exactly the traditions back home. St. Elias has strict adherence to Orthodoxy/Byzantine tradition, but some from the mother land feel that there are certain traditions that developed among their culture that needs to be practiced as is and they see it as a difference from traditions of other Byzantine Churches.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thanks for this. I never thought of it.

I think there have been cases when the Latin Church of Latin tradition has been unfairly pointed as the culprit. While it has been true for a greater part of the recent past, today the biggest problem really is Western Culture as a whole. In my example about weddings, people would rather have weddings akin to what they see on TV, not necessarily Latin Rite weddings, than their traditional wedding. So this is not a case of a closed minded Latin bishop wanting things done his way because he believes all Catholic churches in his territory should practice his Rite. This is about the faithful themselves wanting something based on pop culture.

 

[JerBear_Meaux]

Because the east is Hot… everyones getting a tan over their

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Well, without saying too much, I’ve heard comments that their traditions aren’t exactly the traditions back home. St. Elias has strict adherence to Orthodoxy/Byzantine tradition, but some from the mother land feel that there are certain traditions that developed among their culture that needs to be practiced as is and they see it as a difference from traditions of other Byzantine Churches.

I can understand and appreciate that viewpoint, but did not see that in the Mystery of Crowning example. I suppose one has to ask what is authentic and what was borrowed as “restoration” is attempted.

 

[JaMc]

Like the rosary, chaplets, Stations of the Cross, Eucharistic Adoration, reverence…
What? Just sayin.

But in all seriousness, we have had fifty years of ‘sexual revolution’. Not a small problem.

(And above traditions may just be temporarily mispleaced, (never lost! ) in the area that I live.)

In my parish, we say the Rosary every Sunday before Mass, our pastor leads us in the Divine Mercy Chaplet on Divine Mercy Sunday, we have Stations of the Cross every Friday in Lent, and Eucharistic Adoration on the first Sunday in every month.

And, yes, this is the local “Ordinary Form” Parish.

 

[TrueLight]

I’m not sure what sort of “dance” has been tolerated within the Roman Rite in Africa, but I strongly believe that reverent, ritualistic dance does have its place in African worship; at the same time, I strongly oppose all forms of liturgical dance in the West - it has no place in our tradition. To prove my point, look up the Ethiopian Orthodox liturgy on YouTube - you’ll see that a reverent, ritualistic “sway” (not sure what else to call it) is part of their ancient and venerable tradition during certain parts of the eucharistic liturgy. As is the use of liturgical drums. The Ethopian Rite, which is also celebrated in the Catholic Church (Ethiopian Catholic Church sui iuris), is probably the most authentic expression of Sub-Saharan African Christianity as it is of apostolic origins and is truly native to Africa, while the Roman Rite and the various forms of Protestantism are post-colonial “imports”.

When you say part of their “ancient and venerable tradition”, are you referring to their ancient tradition as Ethiopian Catholics and if so do you know how far back that goes, or are you referring to their ancient tradition as non-Catholic Ethiopians?

 

[ConstantineTG]

When you say part of their “ancient and venerable tradition”, are you referring to their ancient tradition as Ethiopian Catholics and if so do you know how far back that goes, or are you referring to their ancient tradition as non-Catholic Ethiopians?

Ethiopian Christianity has been there for quite a while. Even in Acts we see St. Philip the Deacon baptize an Ethiopian. So pretty much they would have traditions dating back to the Apostolic Age.

 

[malphono]

When you say part of their “ancient and venerable tradition”, are you referring to their ancient tradition as Ethiopian Catholics and if so do you know how far back that goes, or are you referring to their ancient tradition as non-Catholic Ethiopians?

I’m not at all a supporter of post-conciliar “inculturation” ideas, so I will refrain from commenting on “dance” in sub-saharan African liturgical expression in the Roman Church. However, as regards the Ethiopian Church, I will say this:

The description of “sway” used earlier by twf is actually quite appropriate. It’s not “dancing” as we know it, and I cannot emphasize that enough. One must, as well, bear in mind that the “swaying” is done by deacons and altar servers and not by congregants. That last is, in and of itself, quite different than (a) having barefoot maidens in gauzy garments prancing about, whether wafting bowls of incense or otherwise or (b) congregants dancing in the aisles. It is, as noted by others previously, part of the liturgical tradition.

As for whether this is Ethiopian “Catholic” or not, for the purpose of authenticity in the tradition, one has to look at the Orthodox. From what I understand, the practice of the ECC has been affected by the Novus Ordo mindset and so isn’t quite as authentic as it should be.

 

[mangy_dog]

Why is it so easy for western churches to lose their traditions when the eastern churches can hold onto theirs for such a long time?

I might have something to do with what Pope John Paul II called: Modernism, the sythesis of all heresies.

 

[mangy_dog]

Tata is talking about the blatant lack of reverence and devotion on behalf of American Catholics and American Christians alike.

There is no hairsplitting about certain rites or rituals- it’s all the modernisms that have affected our Sacred Traditions, still honored by the Eastern churches and humble cultures that don’t have (nor want) the instant gratification of every aspect of daily living.

Tata is right in her observation.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Tata is talking about the blatant lack of reverence and devotion on behalf of American Catholics and American Christians alike.

There is no hairsplitting about certain rites or rituals- it’s all the modernisms that have affected our Sacred Traditions, still honored by the Eastern churches and humble cultures that don’t have (nor want) the instant gratification of every aspect of daily living.

Tata is right in her observation.

Sorry but anyone who makes claims like this shows they do not know anything that is happening in the Eastern Churches.

 

[mangy_dog]

Sorry but anyone who makes claims like this shows they do not know anything that is happening in the Eastern Churches.

You are forgiven.

 

[TimothyH]

Ethiopian Christianity has been there for quite a while. Even in Acts we see St. Philip the Deacon baptize an Ethiopian. So pretty much they would have traditions dating back to the Apostolic Age.

I don’t have much to add to this thread, except to say that I’ve been to an Etheopian Orthodox liturgy and saw almost exactly this…

youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4 (wait for it…)

Consecration and recpetion of the Eucharist came well before this activity, early in the liturgy. This dancing was followed to a lengthy instruction in some aspect of the scriptures. By that time my host and I had left the Church and were in another building eating some of the spiciest food I had ever put in my mouth.

Some things don’t change. I understood the word “Maria” in the music and knew what was happening when bells started rining and people hit the deck. Everyone was extremely reverent. We removed our shoes and kissed the doorpost before entering the Church.

If you think your church uses alot of incense, you got nothing on these guys. My kids were totally bored until this dancing started, and then they were like, “These guys are crazy!”

-Tim-