Why is it so hard to be traditional?

[PJM]

=Momofmyangels;6959133]Quite simply a “traditional” person is trying to worship God in the most sacred way possible, thus giving God the adoration and worship He is deserving of. This doesn’t just mean attending the TLM, it is a whole way of living and raising your children to keep God where He should be…at the forefront of our minds, in all we do and say, so that all is offered to Him. This is how it should be, right?

Then why are traditionalists as a whole mocked, looked down upon and labeled as “holier than thou”. Their ulterior motive is to give God the adoration and worship He is deserving of. Isn’t this commendable? Why is there such strife? (oh, I know there are a few who lack charity and come across as holier than thou, but for the most this is not so).

Look at all the threads right now, CITH, TLM vs NO, sign of peace…People try to receive Communion on the tongue while kneeling and they are ridiculed. They do so, not to prove a point, but rather to show respect for Our Lord whom they are receiving. It would be MUCH easier to receive in the hand while standing and avoid the ridicule, believe me, but because they truly wish to show respect, they kneel. (please don’t read into this that those that stand and receive in the hand are being disrespectful, my point is that those that kneel and receive on the tongue are ridiculed and those that don’t are not and why is this so?)

Try to say that you prefer the TLM and wish to only attend the TLM and again you are ridiculed. I have never felt at the NO Mass what I feel at the TLM. It never ceases to move me to tears of joy at being that close to God. Again, I am not saying that people cannot feel this at the NO, but when people say they only attend the NO, no one bats an eyelash, but say that you will only attend a TLM and again, the labeling begins. Look at the SSPX, the pope has respect for them and is trying to reconcile with them, but some Catholics don’t share his sentiment and continue to say derogatory statements about them. I don’t understand this.

Everyone has their own preference for worship, but it seems to me that the traditional way of worship is not accepted by most and I have a hard time understanding why. It certainly is not the easy path taken.

Friends Jesus Himself tells us that anyone not willing to suffer FOR HIM is unworthy of HIM.

How much we suffer, how much we are misunderstood andridiculed is of NO MATTER! Christ the Carpenter makes each CROSS and is there to help us carry it.

Christ too was Persecuted; ought we to expect not to be?

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross **Luke.9 :23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Luke.14: 7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

Some don’t know

Some don’t care

Some don’t care to know

Mark.9: 40 “For he that is not against us is for us.” ALSO MEANS that those not with us are against US [US HERE INCLUDES GOD HIMSELF!]

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Robert_Burns]

What confuses me is why people feel the need to label themselves as traditional Catholics. That is what causes the negative feelings. We’re all Catholic we don’t need to separate ourselves through useless labels.

Well I prefer Catholic. I attend the TLM. I was raised on the Baltimorre Catechism. Some want to label me a Traditionalist - but to me - Catholic today is the same as Catholic in 1961 when I first went to Catechism. When I see people advocating Women Priests or Homosexuality or Birth Control or anything that is a clear contradiction to the Teachings of the Faith and still want to call themselves “Catholic” then I have a problem with that. But the fact that they want to label me a “Traditionalist” because I wont go along with their perfidy- then thats their problem. My wife wears a veil and we recieve COTT at a communion rail. If that makes us “Traditionalists” in the eyes of others simply because we wont go along with the liberals - so be it.

 

[Indyann]

I call myself a traditional Catholic because it saves time. Rather than give a lengthy description of my beliefs and practices, I can say this and it gives people a general idea of where I am coming from. For this purpose, it is useful.

Is saving time more important to you than abiding by the Holy Father’s wishes that we avoid labels?

Why can’t you just say “I am Catholic”? Then if questioned further, say ,“I prefer the EF”.

Then, if questioned further, you could say you prefer Latin to the vernacular. You can explain how you feel the EF feeds you spiritually.

No need at all to go off on a tangent about the OF.

 

[ElizabethPH]

What’s the difference. I know plenty of OF Catholics that go to a TLM as well as an occasional Charismatic Mass. I ask can the same be said for the TLM folks? Often times I get the idea that theyare exclusive to the TLM and would not set foot in an OF that is not along the lines of the one you see on EWTN. And they would definitely not go to a Charismatic Mass. Anyway that’s the impression I get correct me if I’m wrong. As far as attending an OF where abuses occur no one wants to do that.

 

[georgewithfaith]

Elizabeth,

I attend the traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo just cannot compare in anyway. I can tell you that there is a reverence and a holiness in TLM that is not found in the Novus Ordo. I have found a treasure trove of grace in the TLM that I have never found in the Novus Ordo. Maybe you disagree and that is fine. When I attend a Novus Ordo it is just not the same and I only attend Novus Ordo if I have too.

 

[Indyann]

Elizabeth,

I attend the traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo just cannot compare in anyway. I can tell you that there is a reverence and a holiness in TLM that is not found in the Novus Ordo. I have found a treasure trove of grace in the TLM that I have never found in the Novus Ordo. Maybe you disagree and that is fine. When I attend a Novus Ordo it is just not the same and I only attend Novus Ordo if I have too.

Well, thank God that He didn’t make us all the same. Thank God the Church provides for all of us, regardless of which form of the Mass provides us with a treasure trove of grace.

 

[floresco]

Is saving time more important to you than abiding by the Holy Father’s wishes that we avoid labels?

I was not aware of the Holy Father expressing a wish that we avoid labels. Could you please give a reference. I would like to see what he says about this.

 

[Indyann]

I was not aware of the Holy Father expressing a wish that we avoid labels. Could you please give a reference. I would like to see what he says about this.

Thanks to JKIRK

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6943468#post6943468

 

[ElizabethPH]

Elizabeth,

I attend the traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo just cannot compare in anyway. I can tell you that there is a reverence and a holiness in TLM that is not found in the Novus Ordo. I have found a treasure trove of grace in the TLM that I have never found in the Novus Ordo. Maybe you disagree and that is fine. When I attend a Novus Ordo it is just not the same and I only attend Novus Ordo if I have too.

First off it is referred to as the Ordinary Form. I was raised in the TLM and I still go but not exclusively, it is not available in my area. That treasure trove of grace is found in all the forms. It’s just you prefer one form over the other. I don’t. They are both licit and offer the same graces.

 

[Lamafacaja]

Quite simply a “traditional” person is trying to worship God in the most sacred way possible, thus giving God the adoration and worship He is deserving of. This doesn’t just mean attending the TLM, it is a whole way of living and raising your children to keep God where He should be…at the forefront of our minds, in all we do and say, so that all is offered to Him. This is how it should be, right?

Then why are traditionalists as a whole mocked, looked down upon and labeled as “holier than thou”. Their ulterior motive is to give God the adoration and worship He is deserving of. Isn’t this commendable? Why is there such strife? (oh, I know there are a few who lack charity and come across as holier than thou, but for the most this is not so).

Look at all the threads right now, CITH, TLM vs NO, sign of peace…People try to receive Communion on the tongue while kneeling and they are ridiculed. They do so, not to prove a point, but rather to show respect for Our Lord whom they are receiving. It would be MUCH easier to receive in the hand while standing and avoid the ridicule, believe me, but because they truly wish to show respect, they kneel. (please don’t read into this that those that stand and receive in the hand are being disrespectful, my point is that those that kneel and receive on the tongue are ridiculed and those that don’t are not and why is this so?)

Try to say that you prefer the TLM and wish to only attend the TLM and again you are ridiculed. I have never felt at the NO Mass what I feel at the TLM. It never ceases to move me to tears of joy at being that close to God. Again, I am not saying that people cannot feel this at the NO, but when people say they only attend the NO, no one bats an eyelash, but say that you will only attend a TLM and again, the labeling begins. Look at the SSPX, the pope has respect for them and is trying to reconcile with them, but some Catholics don’t share his sentiment and continue to say derogatory statements about them. I don’t understand this.

Everyone has their own preference for worship, but it seems to me that the traditional way of worship is not accepted by most and I have a hard time understanding why. It certainly is not the easy path taken.

Are you asking why it’s so hard to be a trad or why we’re ridiculed? Because it seems to me that the answer to each of these questions could possibly be a bit different.

As per why we’re ridiculed: people who go to the OF Masses don’t like being told their Mass is inferior. That naturally gets their back up. No mystery there. It’s to be expected. Certainly that’s understandable.

But if you’re asking why it’s harder to be a traditional Catholic as opposed to a NO Catholic? Well, lets just say that it’s not a ‘feel good religion’ in traddyland. Usually the Mass is farther, it lasts longer, you need to dress nicer, dress your kids nicer and drive them on empty stomachs to the far away Mass where you’re actually told that you need to worry about Confession. And they need to know their catechism to receive the sacraments.

And you hope you’ll be able to pass on all these Catholic traditions–which are much more that the local NO down the street ever asks of them–to your own kids. And, also you worry about those souls who go down the street to that Mass and hope they’re in a state of grace. You’re told at the trad chapel that you’re a sinner and there’s a hell and a devil and these things are waiting for all those who drop the ball–spiritually. And it’s easy to drop the ball.

Plus you feel guilty when you’re on the computer too much and not praying your rosary.

A trad also worries about the state of the Church, what’s being said that’s in line with tradition, what’s being said by the hierarchy that needs to be questioned.

But would I trade traddyland to go back to the NO? No. I wouldn’t. I thank God to be able to get to a traditional chapel.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Quite simply a “traditional” person is trying to worship God in the most sacred way possible, thus giving God the adoration and worship He is deserving of. This doesn’t just mean attending the TLM, it is a whole way of living and raising your children to keep God where He should be…at the forefront of our minds, in all we do and say, so that all is offered to Him. This is how it should be, right?

Then why are traditionalists as a whole mocked, looked down upon and labeled as “holier than thou”. Their ulterior motive is to give God the adoration and worship He is deserving of. Isn’t this commendable? Why is there such strife? (oh, I know there are a few who lack charity and come across as holier than thou, but for the most this is not so).

Look at all the threads right now, CITH, TLM vs NO, sign of peace…People try to receive Communion on the tongue while kneeling and they are ridiculed. They do so, not to prove a point, but rather to show respect for Our Lord whom they are receiving. It would be MUCH easier to receive in the hand while standing and avoid the ridicule, believe me, but because they truly wish to show respect, they kneel. (please don’t read into this that those that stand and receive in the hand are being disrespectful, my point is that those that kneel and receive on the tongue are ridiculed and those that don’t are not and why is this so?)

Try to say that you prefer the TLM and wish to only attend the TLM and again you are ridiculed. I have never felt at the NO Mass what I feel at the TLM. It never ceases to move me to tears of joy at being that close to God. Again, I am not saying that people cannot feel this at the NO, but when people say they only attend the NO, no one bats an eyelash, but say that you will only attend a TLM and again, the labeling begins. Look at the SSPX, the pope has respect for them and is trying to reconcile with them, but some Catholics don’t share his sentiment and continue to say derogatory statements about them. I don’t understand this.

Everyone has their own preference for worship, but it seems to me that the traditional way of worship is not accepted by most and I have a hard time understanding why. It certainly is not the easy path taken.

I can’t speak for what has happened to you in your life as a “traditionalist,” but I can make this observation:

You have made 107 posts, which implies that you haven’t been around these fora for a terribly long time. If you had, you’d understand why a lot of people MIGHT have an antipathy for some who label themselves as “traditionalists.” There is a constant denigration in the Traditionalist Forum of most if not all things that are post-Conciliar (unless we’re talking about the Council of Trent), in particular the Mass. People react to that. There is a lot of arrogant, triumphalistic "the Mass of the Ages is the BEST!, that the OF is inferior, or lacking, or theologically insufficient, or, at worst, not a Mass at all. There’s a lot of denigration of the Ven. Pope John Paul II. And then there’s a general (again, not everybody) tone of “We’re better than you,” which can only rub people the wrong way. Finally, in this particular fora, there’s a lot of misinformation, from “spin” to outright misinformation.

I don’t think I’ve ever ONCE read, in the time that I’ve made nearly 9,000 posts, anyone denigrate the EF. There’ve been questions about it, there have been statements of preference regarding it, there have been respectful critiques of it, but I cannot recall a single time anyone questioned it’s licitness or legitimacy. That is quite the opposite of the “open season” on the OF.

You asked, “Then why are traditionalists as a whole mocked, looked down upon and labeled as “holier than thou”. Their ulterior motive is to give God the adoration and worship He is deserving of. Isn’t this commendable? Why is there such strife?” There’s strife because lots (not all) of self-styled “traditionalists” mock and look down upon the efforts of other faithful Catholics to give God the adoration and worship He is deserving of, Catholics who are only worshipping in the way the Church has approved.

You did ask.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Thanks to JKIRK

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6943468#post6943468

And to clarify: Beatissimi Apostolorum is by Benedict XV, not XVI, so none of the sulphur and brimstone scent of the post-Vatican II church should adhere to this “traditional” pontiff.

You’re welcome, Indy, I’m glad it meant something to you.

 

[floresco]

Is saving time more important to you than abiding by the Holy Father’s wishes that we avoid labels?

I looked at the link you gave for this and found the entire encyclical here:vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xv/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_01111914_ad-beatissimi-apostolorum_en.html

I will conform my actions to the teaching of the Church and avoid using labels. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I looked at the link you gave for this and found the entire encyclical here:vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xv/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_01111914_ad-beatissimi-apostolorum_en.html

I will conform my actions to the teaching of the Church and avoid using labels.

That is absolutely fantastic (and incidentally, quite traditional!!!).

 

[floresco]

And to clarify: Beatissimi Apostolorum is by Benedict XV, not XVI, so none of the sulphur and brimstone scent of the post-Vatican II church should adhere to this “traditional” pontiff.

For the record, I would have considered it equally binding whichever of them had written it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

For the record, I would have considered it equally binding whichever of them had written it.

Even better! We must think with the mind of the whole Church.

 

[maurin]

I can’t speak for what has happened to you in your life as a “traditionalist,” but I can make this observation:

You have made 107 posts, which implies that you haven’t been around these fora for a terribly long time. If you had, you’d understand why a lot of people MIGHT have an antipathy for some who label themselves as “traditionalists.” There is a constant denigration in the Traditionalist Forum of most if not all things that are post-Conciliar (unless we’re talking about the Council of Trent), in particular the Mass. People react to that. There is a lot of arrogant, triumphalistic "the Mass of the Ages is the BEST!, that the OF is inferior, or lacking, or theologically insufficient, or, at worst, not a Mass at all. There’s a lot of denigration of the Ven. Pope John Paul II. And then there’s a general (again, not everybody) tone of “We’re better than you,” which can only rub people the wrong way. Finally, in this particular fora, there’s a lot of misinformation, from “spin” to outright misinformation.

I don’t think I’ve ever ONCE read, in the time that I’ve made nearly 9,000 posts, anyone denigrate the EF. There’ve been questions about it, there have been statements of preference regarding it, there have been respectful critiques of it, but I cannot recall a single time anyone questioned it’s licitness or legitimacy. That is quite the opposite of the “open season” on the OF.

You asked, “Then why are traditionalists as a whole mocked, looked down upon and labeled as “holier than thou”. Their ulterior motive is to give God the adoration and worship He is deserving of. Isn’t this commendable? Why is there such strife?” There’s strife because lots (not all) of self-styled “traditionalists” mock and look down upon the efforts of other faithful Catholics to give God the adoration and worship He is deserving of, Catholics who are only worshipping in the way the Church has approved.

You did ask.

No offense, kirk, and I do mean this with an equal seasoning of good humor, but oh my goodness I had to look outside to make sure that in the world we are both living in that the grass was still green and the sky is still blue.

The animosity for the EF is every bit as acidic, if not subtler, from some on the other side of the table.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I looked at the link you gave for this and found the entire encyclical here:vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xv/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_01111914_ad-beatissimi-apostolorum_en.html

I will conform my actions to the teaching of the Church and avoid using labels. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

There lies the rub! I was formed as a Catholic in the 1940’s and early 1950’s; we were taught never, never, never was a lay person to handle a Consecrated Host; those of us who were drawn to be Altar Boys took great pride in learning all the Mass responses in perfectly enunciated Latin, that meant we also had to learn much of the priest’s Mass parts in Latin; we learned to be absolutely quiet the entire time we were in the Lord’s presence, in church in other words, out of reverence to Him and courtesy to those around us praying: liturgical music was mostly Gregorian Chant accompanied by Pipe Organ using solemn registration; guitar, piano, saxophone, flute don’t be silly!

So, along comes the transitional period then VII, and all that essentially went out the window!

Now I ask you to what teachings of the Church am I to conform; the teachings that to me were absolutely reverent and respectful to Our Lord, those that seem to focus more on the congregation than the Lord; maybe even the good old banjo-fiddle Masses of the 1970’s; I don’t know but after many years of something just not feeling right I chose finally to follow my initial formation.

 

[Momofmyangels]

I can’t speak for what has happened to you in your life as a “traditionalist,” but I can make this observation:

You have made 107 posts, which implies that you haven’t been around these fora for a terribly long time. If you had, you’d understand why a lot of people MIGHT have an antipathy for some who label themselves as “traditionalists.” There is a constant denigration in the Traditionalist Forum of most if not all things that are post-Conciliar (unless we’re talking about the Council of Trent), in particular the Mass. People react to that. There is a lot of arrogant, triumphalistic "the Mass of the Ages is the BEST!, that the OF is inferior, or lacking, or theologically insufficient, or, at worst, not a Mass at all. There’s a lot of denigration of the Ven. Pope John Paul II. And then there’s a general (again, not everybody) tone of “We’re better than you,” which can only rub people the wrong way. Finally, in this particular fora, there’s a lot of misinformation, from “spin” to outright misinformation.

I don’t think I’ve ever ONCE read, in the time that I’ve made nearly 9,000 posts, anyone denigrate the EF. There’ve been questions about it, there have been statements of preference regarding it, there have been respectful critiques of it, but I cannot recall a single time anyone questioned it’s licitness or legitimacy. That is quite the opposite of the “open season” on the OF.

You asked, “Then why are traditionalists as a whole mocked, looked down upon and labeled as “holier than thou”. Their ulterior motive is to give God the adoration and worship He is deserving of. Isn’t this commendable? Why is there such strife?” There’s strife because lots (not all) of self-styled “traditionalists” mock and look down upon the efforts of other faithful Catholics to give God the adoration and worship He is deserving of, Catholics who are only worshipping in the way the Church has approved.

You did ask.

Yes, I did ask and it is unfortunate it is this way. I’ve never called myself a traditionalist, but I was certainly raised to know a lot more about my faith than most kids my age. When I started having kids, I realized to set them on the path of saving their souls, I would have to stay on the traditional side. And have found that it is not easy. We attend the OF as that is our only option and we do not have the blessing of a reverent OF that I hear is out there. Of course, I know the Mass is valid, but it gets disheartening to teach my children one thing about the Mass and they see the exact opposite while there.

I understand what you are saying about the “holier than thou attitude,” I’ve seen it myself and perhaps I’ve come across as being that way too and if so, I apologize. But, as you said and I’ve said as well, that is not everyone and it is a small few. We shouldn’t lump everyone in with those, because we do not know what is in everyone elses hearts.

I guess a big dose of charity goes a long way.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

No offense, kirk, and I do mean this with an equal seasoning of good humor, but oh my goodness I had to look outside to make sure that in the world we are both living in that the grass was still green and the sky is still blue.

The animosity for the EF is every bit as acidic, if not subtler, from some on the other side of the table.

I realize that the Forums don’t keep their archives back as long as I’ve been here (for example, all of my posts don’t appear), but could you please provide evidence of your assertion from the fora? I do realize that there are people “in the real world” who denigrate the EF, I do realize that the bishops have dragged their feet to a large degree (but I also honestly question how wide-spread the desire or demand for the EF has been), etc., but I mean simply from the fora?