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Joe_5859
Guest
You are correct. For those in danger off death, they can be admitted right away. Even a laicized priest could hear a dying person’s Confession because the Church so desires us to have that grace.
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Fairwinds
Guest
I always got the impression that in the early church, people were baptized then instructed.
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edward_george
Guest
First off, congratulations on taking the first steps toward full communion with the Church. I won’t repeat everything that’s already been said about why it’s necessary to go through some sort of formation before you enter the Church, but I will point this out to you.
When I started seminary, I thought I was looking at four years of formation. The way it works is that you do a degree in philosophy (either a 4 year degree if you don’t already have an undergrad degree, or a 2 year program if you do), and then you take four years of graduate theology. I already had my undergrad degree, and it was in theology and philosophy, so I figured I could skip the philosophy program at the seminary. I was a little disappointed initially to learn that I would have to go through the program, thus adding 2 years to my formation.
That was 3 years ago, and I’m now entirely grateful that this is what I was asked to do. If I had not gone through those initial 2 years of formation, I would now be looking at diaconal ordination in about two weeks, as opposed to the two years that I currently am. While I am reasonably confident in my vocation at this point, I also know in all humility and after three years of formation, I am not ready for Holy Orders at the present time. I’m glad that I have as much time as possible to be in seminary and get the good formation that I can there.
So know of my prayers for you, for your perseverance and patience. And feel free to PM me with any questions you might have.
In IC XC
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When I started seminary, I thought I was looking at four years of formation. The way it works is that you do a degree in philosophy (either a 4 year degree if you don’t already have an undergrad degree, or a 2 year program if you do), and then you take four years of graduate theology. I already had my undergrad degree, and it was in theology and philosophy, so I figured I could skip the philosophy program at the seminary. I was a little disappointed initially to learn that I would have to go through the program, thus adding 2 years to my formation.
That was 3 years ago, and I’m now entirely grateful that this is what I was asked to do. If I had not gone through those initial 2 years of formation, I would now be looking at diaconal ordination in about two weeks, as opposed to the two years that I currently am. While I am reasonably confident in my vocation at this point, I also know in all humility and after three years of formation, I am not ready for Holy Orders at the present time. I’m glad that I have as much time as possible to be in seminary and get the good formation that I can there.
So know of my prayers for you, for your perseverance and patience. And feel free to PM me with any questions you might have.
In IC XC
-ACEGC
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Theophilus76
Guest
You all are awesome. Thank you so much.
Ok, ok, I think I get it. I’ll cool my jets. I suppose I am only looking at the desert table and not understanding that the very entry process into His church is guided by the Holy Spirit, too. Just as long as God understands I’m running to Him at full speed (sometimes stumbling over myself) and desparately do not want to be excluded from heaven’s entry.
You see, in the denomination I grew up in, a person will not enter heaven untill they are baptized. As a result, I was equating my receipt of the sacraments (a few more requirements) as proof to God that I was serious about this; but His very church I am trying to join was telling me, “Not so fast. Wait here for the next train.” I truely appreciate your replies.
Please keep the comments coming. I still have much to learn.
Ok, ok, I think I get it. I’ll cool my jets. I suppose I am only looking at the desert table and not understanding that the very entry process into His church is guided by the Holy Spirit, too. Just as long as God understands I’m running to Him at full speed (sometimes stumbling over myself) and desparately do not want to be excluded from heaven’s entry.
You see, in the denomination I grew up in, a person will not enter heaven untill they are baptized. As a result, I was equating my receipt of the sacraments (a few more requirements) as proof to God that I was serious about this; but His very church I am trying to join was telling me, “Not so fast. Wait here for the next train.” I truely appreciate your replies.
Please keep the comments coming. I still have much to learn.
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devoutchristian
Guest
That practice was ended well before the close of the Apostolic Age.
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Fairwinds
Guest
I believe you, can you cite some source for this?
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St_Francis
Guest
Yes, and Catholics should have something in their wallet and car which says, I am a Catholic; if I am in an accident, please call a Catholic priest, so they can receive Last Rites if necessary. Catechumens should ask their priest what their card should say. People used to have them in the wallet and in their car.
I recommend cards over having it written on a crucifix because police procedure is to look for identification, and may not understand the significance of a crucifix (in places like the Bible Belt…), but *both *would be good too.
And it doesn’t have to be printed.
(Also, some i have seen have the Act of Contrition on the back, which can also come in handy.)
Cards
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Spencerian
Guest
You got it!
I have a related issue for my son, who cannot enter the Church due to child custody matters. I had the same fears of “If my child isn’t baptized, then he can’t enter heaven!” (among other angry thoughts related to the custody battle).
But I had to remember that, while we as the laity and ordained of our Church are bound by the Sacraments, God is not (Christ said this Himself when the Pharisees complained about the Disciples doing work on the Sabbath in Mark 2:27-28). In short, God knows. He prefers that you follow the *normal *process of joining the Church that He founded. But He can do what he wants. Should you die, know that your desire is readily seen by Christ, and He will not reject you because your earthly time to enter the Church didn’t reconcile to His time to call you home. He’ll aid with a *super-normal *process to help you.
My son, as long as he desires to enter the Church (he’s completed all RCIA tasks except the Vigil) will be fine. So will you. Keep your heart fires burning and join RCIA when you can. It’s a fulfilling process.
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devoutchristian
Guest
I found some stating that the current method was used in the early church, but at the moment I can’t find any which directly speak about the original method of instructing converts after baptism.
stjohnchurchterrell.org/index.cfm?load=page&page=170
catholicdoors.com/courses/rcia.htm
sacredhearthouston.org/index.cfm?load=page&page=168
Scroll down to “History of RCIA” and “What is RCIA”.
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Fairwinds
Guest
thanks.
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MSSheBear
Guest
:twocents: As Protestant convert, I can tell you the RCIA “ordeal.” (Don’t quote me on that one 
) was more than I had expected. Most Protestant denominations simply have you attend a weekend seminar and then be interviewed by a pastor or elder.
But there are things about being Catholic that you can’t learn in reading a book. For one thing since RCIA teams appear to be staffed by liberal Catholics we discovered that some Catholics were unaware of Church doctrine, ahem, or deliberately ignored it. Also because we were in a group I learned more about Catholic marriage than I would have otherwise because someone else was asking questions. (I have no intention of getting married.) Also we were strongly encouraged to attend certain Church activities like some of the Social Justice programs.
And finally, when you commit to the Catholic Church as a convert you should be committing for eternity, not just until it no longer suits your purposes. We converts need a period of discernment to think of what we will do if certain issues come up. And, I found in my first year, many issues came up.
I love those smilies.
) was more than I had expected. Most Protestant denominations simply have you attend a weekend seminar and then be interviewed by a pastor or elder.But there are things about being Catholic that you can’t learn in reading a book. For one thing since RCIA teams appear to be staffed by liberal Catholics we discovered that some Catholics were unaware of Church doctrine, ahem, or deliberately ignored it. Also because we were in a group I learned more about Catholic marriage than I would have otherwise because someone else was asking questions. (I have no intention of getting married.) Also we were strongly encouraged to attend certain Church activities like some of the Social Justice programs.
And finally, when you commit to the Catholic Church as a convert you should be committing for eternity, not just until it no longer suits your purposes. We converts need a period of discernment to think of what we will do if certain issues come up. And, I found in my first year, many issues came up.
I love those smilies.
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Kevin12
Guest
I’m not sure if the Church will even need to baptize you again - we recognize the validity of Protestant denomination’s baptisms, though I know that doesn’t extend to Mormons and might not extent to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Though I think a conditional Baptism would be given - but there would be a distinction in the words used. Though I’m not 100% sure, they might give conditional baptisms to all catechumens as a matter of course.
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Fairwinds
Guest
there’s a master directory of all churches that give valid trinitarian baptisms. its possible a local nondenominational church won’t be in that directory.
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Joe_5859
Guest
I think it’s really awesome that you’re so excited to become Catholic.
We could use more people with such zeal.
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Gorgias
Guest
If you’re really interested in the history of baptism in the Church, Kavanaugh’s “The Shape of Baptism: The Rite of Christian Initiation” is a good resource, as is Johnson’s “The Rites of Christian Initiation: Their Evolution and Interpretation”.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Not to dissuade you from RCIA, but to keep in mind its relative necessity from a N.T. perspective…
I do think we put the cart before the horse. In our society we take an academic approach to everything and we think somebody has to be sufficiently “qualified.”
Here are a couple of items about “head knowledge” and being “fully informed.” Make not mistake; I love head knowledge. I was an engineer with a master’s degree and a math teacher. My big problem was to get out of the head knowledge only mode (that is almost exclusively what is discussed on the forums) and get into transforming – and eventually divine – union.
1 Cor 2:1-5
When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear and much trembling, and my message and my proclamation were not with persuasive (words of) wisdom, but with a demonstration of spirit and power, so that your faith might rest not on human wisdom but on the power of God.
1 Cor 1:17-20
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and*** not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.*** The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”
Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish?
1 Cor 8:1-3
Now in regard to meat sacrificed to idols: we realize that “all of us have knowledge”; knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.
Again I’m clearly in favor of, not against, having “head knowledge” but it’s obviously not the most important thing in our relationship with God. And of course some here do not accept his authority, but Franciscan Fr. Richard Rohr sent a message about head knowledge in his daily email that I receive and discuss on my own forum site. I think it is rather ironic that I received and posted this email just this morning, then came to CAF to find this thread. (“Coincidence is God’s way of remaining anonymous” – Albert Einstein)
Here is an excerpt:
Major Misplacement of Attention
Meditation 28 of 49
The Christian tradition became so concerned with making Jesus into its
God, and making sure everybody believed that Jesus was God, that it
often ignored his very practical and clear teachings. (Has Christianity
been known for loving its enemies, or even building bridges of
understanding between peoples?) Instead, we made the important issues
abstract theological questions about the nature of God (which ask almost
nothing of us except argument). Much of our church life has been on that
level, and no one ever really “wins,” and so it goes on for
centuries. Churches divide and separate largely over nonessential Gospel
issues. “Who can pour the water, when, and what do they say?”
Just some things to think about in your spiritual journey. By all means, go to RCIA and learn what you can. But remember that knowing Catholic doctrine is but a means to the goal of our relationship with God. Our proficiency with doctrine is neither required nor sufficient for us to have a relationship with God.
That said, if the Catholics say you must do it this way, then to be a Catholic I guess that’s what you’re going to have to do. But even in the Catholic tradition, the most profound form of prayer – contemplative prayer – involves zero knowledge, and in fact consists of our “un-thinking” about anything including God … just basking in His gaze.
Alan
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aemcpa
Guest
At infant baptism, the parents and sponsors, who are already supposed to be catechized and professed Catholics, are required to profess the Creed and then are bound to train the newly baptized child in the faith they profess. An adult is required to profess the faith himself before he is baptized, and so he must first learn what he is asked to profess.
A baptized Christian who is already living a Christian life in another Church or ecclesial community and who professes the Creed is not supposed to go through RCIA and is not supposed to be admitted into full communion at the Easter Vigil:
**For those who have been instructed in the Christian faith and have lived as Christians, the situation is different. The U.S. Conference of Bishops states, “Those baptized persons who have lived as Christians and need only instruction in the Catholic tradition and a degree of probation within the Catholic community should not be asked to undergo a full program parallel to the catechumenate” (NSC 31). For this reason, they should not share in the same, full RCIA programs that catechumens do.
The timing of their reception into the Church also is different. The U.S. Conference of Bishops states, "It is preferable that reception into full communion not take place at the Easter Vigil lest there be any confusion of such baptized Christians with the candidates for baptism, possible misunderstanding of or even reflection upon the sacrament of baptism celebrated in another church or ecclesial community . . . " (NSC 33).
Rather than being received on Easter Vigil, “[t]he reception of candidates into the communion of the Catholic Church should ordinarily take place at the Sunday Eucharist of the parish community, in such a way that it is understood that they are indeed Christian believers who have already shared in the sacramental life of the Church and are now welcomed into the Catholic Eucharistic community . . .” (NSC 32).
Christians coming into the Catholic Church must discuss with their pastor and/or bishop the amount of instruction needed and the time of their reception. **
catholic.com/documents/how-to-become-a-catholic
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HoosMommie
Guest
Oh, honey, I soooooo understand your impatience, truly I do. When I decided to be received into the Catholic Church it took almost a year and a half until the Easter Vigil. At first when I had to remain in my pew while the others were going forward to receive Holy Communion it broke my heart. THEN, when RCIA began in September we were dismissed after the homily so that we could discuss the readings, the homily, or whatever we felt was important at the time, and I didn’t even get to watch the pageantry of the Eucharist preparation, something I loved. Believe me when I tell you in the end it was worth every bit of the time it took to be in full communion with the Catholic Church. One aspect that I can’t stress enough is the fellowship with the other RCIA participants. They are all very precious to me and I can’t imagine not going through everything without them. And our catechists (those teaching us) were so caring and eager for us to know the truth. I wouldn’t trade that time for anything even though I longed for Holy Communion. Now sometimes I have to pinch myself when I’m standing in the line to receive Holy Communion. It is truly my heart’s desire.
I say all of this to say to you, hang in there, precious pilgrim, it will be worth the wait. The Easter Vigil is the pinnacle of the liturgical year and will move you to tears.
God bless you on your journey HOME!!!
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
This doesn’t say they don’t go through RCIA. It says they go through RCIA as adapted for their needs. It’s not the catechumenate, but they still need “instruction in the Catholic tradition” and “a degree of probation within the Catholic community.” And that is what RCIA provides for them, in addition to the various liturgical rites.
Unfortunately many parishes do not differentiate between those who are already Christians and those who are not, but RCIA is available for both groups.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
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