Why is it that cafeteria Catholics

[John_of_Woking]

patg:

Okay, just a few:

• The idea of a bodily assumption or ascension is based on the ancient concept of a three tiered universe in which there is the flat earth, the sky as a “half bowl” above the earth on which the sun and stars move, and heaven as a place above this bowl. We know now that a body ascending up through the clouds would continue into “infinite space” and that God or heaven really isn’t right up there… The ascension concept made perfect sense in the primitive understanding of the universe but it is pointless to declare it as absolute doctrine now…
• We know enough of history, geography, and science, and ancient literary forms to put to rest the traditional claim that the bible is infallible and innerant in areas where it was never meant to be. Even though the church conditionally declares this in Dei Verbum, it seldom educates the average catholic about even this partial admission (If you doubt this, just notice the number of posts here with topics like “Are the birth stories in Matthew and Luke history?”, “Did Noah’s Ark exist?”, or “Who sinned first, Adam or Eve?”. Questions like these reveal a serious lack of biblical understanding that is seldom addressed by the church).
• We know enough biology to figure out that the male and female contribute something to the making of a child. The ancients believed that the male seed included everything and the woman only served as the incubator - a misconcept which forms the basis for numerous sins and sexual prohibitions.
• And I’ll throw in one really specific seasonal one. How often do we hear: "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Every bible scholar knows that this “Christmas” phrase is copied from Isaiah and that in the Septuagint translation into Greek, the Hebrew almah (young woman)was erroneously rendered into the Greek parthenos, Virgin. I can’t imagine how many doctrines were developed based either entirely or loosely on this mistranslation. I also am amazed at how few Catholics have even heard of this.

The current drastic decline in the power of institutional Christianity is occurring not because of liberal compromises with the ancient verities, but because the traditional basis upon which the faith system has been erected can no longer be sustained. The heart will never worship what the mind rejects. When these realities are finally recognized by church leaders, then perhaps the need for a totally new reformation will become both imperative and unavoidable.

Many in the modern world are no longer drawn to blindly accept and obey a religion which suggests that salvation comes through the barbaric human sacrifice of a perfect person who was crucified to appease an offended theistic deity (who through some twist of logic turns out to be himself). Neither are they attracted to the idea that in the shedding of Jesus’ blood somehow the price of sin was paid. These threadbare concepts are not worthy today of eliciting worship. Indeed, they have become grotesque.

Humility is the beginning of wisdom. This could be where you’re slipping up. If you were humble enough to admit that there may be some supra-rational truth which can only be partially understood by the limitations of the human mind, then you might begin to penetrate further the mysteries of Faith which are illumined by the light of Revelation.

 

[patg]

John of Woking:

Humility is the beginning of wisdom. This could be where you’re slipping up. If you were humble enough to admit that there may be some supra-rational truth which can only be partially understood by the limitations of the human mind, then you might begin to penetrate further the mysteries of Faith which are illumined by the light of Revelation.

I think its pretty bizarre to worship a God who created the entire universe and the miracles of life, who knows all, sees all, is all powerful and good and loving but can’t figure out how to clearly explain itself to us? This super power’s best shots at communicating are the murky waters of something called “revelation” and “mysteries of faith”? Of course there was always Jesus’ attempt to show us the way, but God didn’t even bother to inspire anyone to take accurate notes or inspire someone to save a few original copies of what was written.

 

[4_marks]

patg:

Many in the modern world are no longer drawn to blindly accept and obey a religion which suggests that salvation comes through the barbaric human sacrifice of a perfect person who was crucified to appease an offended theistic deity (who through some twist of logic turns out to be himself). Neither are they attracted to the idea that in the shedding of JesusÍ blood somehow the price of sin was paid. These threadbare concepts are not worthy today of eliciting worship. Indeed, they have become grotesque.

Faith in Christ and in His Church is a gift which is obviously not embraced by all who identify themselves as Catholics as your response clearly demonstrates. I thank you, for this exchange has served to make me appreciate even more the gift of faith I have been given as a Catholic.

 

[John_of_Woking]

patg:

I think its pretty bizarre to worship a God who created the entire universe and the miracles of life, who knows all, sees all, is all powerful and good and loving but can’t figure out how to clearly explain itself to us? This super power’s best shots at communicating are the murky waters of something called “revelation” and “mysteries of faith”? Of course there was always Jesus’ attempt to show us the way, but God didn’t even bother to inspire anyone to take accurate notes or inspire someone to save a few original copies of what was written.

I disagree. He left mankind a Church with four visible marks.

 

[John_of_Woking]

4 marks:

Faith in Christ and in His Church is a gift which is obviously not embraced by all who identify themselves as Catholics as your response clearly demonstrates. I thank you, for this exchange has served to make me appreciate even more the gift of faith I have been given as a Catholic.

Exactly. The Cross of Christ is mere folly to the pagan.

 

[patg]

4 marks:

Faith in Christ and in His Church is a gift which is obviously not embraced by all who identify themselves as Catholics as your response clearly demonstrates. I thank you, for this exchange has served to make me appreciate even more the gift of faith I have been given as a Catholic.

I think there is a big difference between believing that Jesus showed us the way and having faith that everything the church teaches is either necessary or acceptable in the real world. If your “gift of faith” helps you ignore the position I presented and that is what you consciously want, then I am happy for you. I want something new, not just becasue it is new, but because it is better.

Pat

 

[John_of_Woking]

patg:

I think there is a big difference between believing that Jesus showed us the way and having faith that everything the church teaches is either necessary or acceptable in the real world. If your “gift of faith” helps you ignore the position I presented and that is what you consciously want, then I am happy for you. I want something new, not just becasue it is new, but because it is better.

Pat

Ignorance of the Church is Ignorance of Christ. By what criterion do you believe your way is better? Feeling? Maybe it is easier.

All I know is that ‘The Truth’ makes demands on us and its not up to us to decide what truth is (as if it is man made - heterononomous). We are not living in a sweet shop. We are living in the hard real world where there are moral laws. There is a time when we are called to maturity and need to grow up a bit instead of being stifled by the whims of our sensitive appetite. It is easy to rationalise sin. It is easy to sucomb to pride and think that we know best. It is harder to admit that we are a sinner in need of healing by the Divine Physician

 

[Penny_Plain]

John of Woking:

Ignorance of the Church is Ignorance of Christ. By what criterion do you believe your way is better? Feeling? Maybe it is easier.

Well, for that matter by what criterion do you believe that ignorance of the Church is ignorance of Christ? At some point, your position comes down to feeling as well.

I agree that it’s not up to us to determine what is true. (Whoops: True). Things are either true, or they are not.

However, it is up to us to evaluate all things that purport to be True to determine which are True and which are False. It is up to us to determine what the moral la…Moral Laws demand and then to determine whether we will choose to follow them.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Penny Plain:

Well, for that matter by what criterion do you believe that ignorance of the Church is ignorance of Christ? At some point, your position comes down to feeling as well.

I agree that it’s not up to us to determine what is true. (Whoops: True). Things are either true, or they are not.

However, it is up to us to evaluate all things that purport to be True to determine which are True and which are False. It is up to us to determine what the moral la…Moral Laws demand and then to determine whether we will choose to follow them.

Of course we can choose whether we choose to follow the moral law.

Example 1)

Someone verbally insults you.
You might feel it appropriate to punch them.
You consult the moral law as interpreted by an infallible authority
You discover it would be grave matter to punch them
You can choose to

separate yourself from God by punching them (or contracepting)
submit to the Will and Law of God and refrain from punching them (or contracepting)

 

[4_marks]

patg:

I think there is a big difference between believing that Jesus showed us the way and having faith that everything the church teaches is either necessary or acceptable in the real world. If your “gift of faith” helps you ignore the position I presented and that is what you consciously want, then I am happy for you. I want something new, not just becasue it is new, but because it is better.

Pat

If the position you present is to be taken to heart, Jesus can not be counted upon to have shown us “the way.” He would be, at best, a middle eastern peasant sage with, as Crossan puts it, “a quick wit and a profound knack for telling stories.”

The human heart is, by design, restless. It will never be satisfied by empty promises or fabrications. If the Truth, in its fullness is not to be found within the Catholic faith, then one must be honest with one’s self and seek the Truth elsewhere. It is nothing short of pure hypocrisy for one who doesn’t embrace the fullness of the Catholic faith to remain within the Catholic church. Have you considered looking elsewhere? You really owe it to yourself to do so.
.

 

[HagiaSophia]

patg:

*]The idea of a bodily assumption or ascension is based on the ancient concept of a three tiered universe in which there is the flat earth, the sky as a “half bowl” above the earth on which the sun and stars move, and heaven as a place above this bowl. We know now that a body ascending up through the clouds would continue into “infinite space” and that God or heaven really isn’t right up there… The ascension concept made perfect sense in the primitive understanding of the universe but it is pointless to declare it as absolute doctrine now…

But isn’t there a bit more that goes with this “thesis” - I mean, the only people I have heard present this also hold that the Resurrection was a “metaphor”, The Birth of Jesus just another miracle birth story of ancient times, that the miracles such as loaves and fishes might mean that people brought bag lunches, and shared, etc. etc.?

 

[HagiaSophia]

patg:

*]And I’ll throw in one really specific seasonal one. How often do we hear: "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Every bible scholar knows that this “Christmas” phrase is copied from Isaiah and that in the Septuagint translation into Greek, the Hebrew almah (young woman)was erroneously rendered into the Greek parthenos, Virgin. I can’t imagine how many doctrines were developed based either entirely or loosely on this mistranslation. I also am amazed at how few Catholics have even heard of this.

That’s what I asked a Rabbi one time and he explained to me, that almah had BETTER be a virgin or the women of the village would have driven her out. IOW the world denoted a pure young woman of tender years.

patg:

The heart will never worship what the mind rejects.

A rather interesting concept from a modern mind; I know if I had been present at the Transfiguration, my mind would NOT have accepted what I had seen, but I feel sure my heart would have. I suspect Peter went into near shock as he walked across the waves and heaven only knows what Lazarus thought as he left his grave. The walk to Emmaus explained many things, to disciples whose minds were put at ease. The winds of the Spirit blowing through the Cenacle depositing tongues of fire were probably mind boggling to say the least. The echo of “My ways are not your ways”…obviously still rings down through to modern times, to those who still struggle with trying to reformulate what people knew in the time they walked with Jesus and what they related to those that came after them. Because after all - being of a modern mind, with modern sensibilities, what could they know ?

patg:

Many in the modern world are no longer drawn to blindly accept and obey a religion which suggests that salvation comes through the barbaric human sacrifice of a perfect person who was crucified to appease an offended theistic deity (who through some twist of logic turns out to be himself). Neither are they attracted to the idea that in the shedding of Jesus’ blood somehow the price of sin was paid. These threadbare concepts are not worthy today of eliciting worship. Indeed, they have become grotesque.

Am I supposed to take it you are one who no longer blindly accepts the sacrifice of the Christ - what exactly was the reason for the Incarnation, the Passion and dare I say the word, the Resurrection? Who are some of these many you speak of?

Or is this the latest fad - “Christianity Without Christ” I think is what they call their “thesis”.

 

[amarischuk]

Patg, in other words: Turn off your head.

Don’t worry. I have heard this answer here too many times before. Ironic they should post it on an apologetics site. So often the conservative position boils down to blind acceptance which unfortunately makes Catholicism just like every other religion on earth. And just as every other religion on earth has its lunatic fringe, so does Catholicism. A sad state for the Church.

Perhaps John of Woking would prefer the Albigensians to the Catholic Church. I know of no other religion which was so able to suppress the sensitive appetite to foster their own notion of “spiritual growth.”

They claim to know that they are right, but then only those with the gift of faith can know. I didn’t realize Catholicism was so gnostic.

Adam

 

[Maccabees]

amarischuk:

Last I checked the Orthodox and pentecostals were the fastest growing churches in the West. The fastest growing religion on earth is Islam.

I suggest you find a different argument. The interesting correlary to “Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions” (Chesterton) is that “truths do not cease to be true because they become unpopular”.

Try to find a theologian of note who agrees with the superstituous and dated interpretations of those passages. Like in the patristic era, like in the middle ages, the intellectuals tended to be in advance of the magisterium and the ignorant masses. And I use the word advance to denote the progressive and evolutionary nature of Catholic teaching.

Funny how the self-proclaimed orthodox (by which they mean reactionaries) so often note that the Church is not a democracy, but then try to prove that the Church is right because 1 billion Catholics can’t be wrong!

Adam

Do you even understand what I am saying here. The elite biblical critcism has not caught on beyond the bible professors who have no faith in Christ. You have supported my point Pentacostlas and the Orthodox are known to reject higher biblical criticism and conservative in their Bible interpretation keeping to a strict understanding of the creeds. ANd Islam is not a reglion of higher texutal critisism either. People want to believe in something that proclaims truth. The Jesus Seminar eliminates that possibility but no one want to join a relgion like that. Of course no religions pure numbers indicate truth but it does point to a growing relgious movement gone mainstream. Higher scholarly elites are the only ones impressed with their opinions on what was an authentic word of God or not.
You appear to have a crisis of faith perhaps you have read to many head wrong books in Seminary that deiny what the fathers taught us the first milinia of christianity.

 

[John_of_Woking]

amarischuk:

Patg, in other words: Turn off your head.

Don’t worry. I have heard this answer here too many times before. Ironic they should post it on an apologetics site. So often the conservative position boils down to blind acceptance which unfortunately makes Catholicism just like every other religion on earth. And just as every other religion on earth has its lunatic fringe, so does Catholicism. A sad state for the Church.

Perhaps John of Woking would prefer the Albigensians to the Catholic Church. I know of no other religion which was so able to suppress the sensitive appetite to foster their own notion of “spiritual growth.”

They claim to know that they are right, but then only those with the gift of faith can know. I didn’t realize Catholicism was so gnostic.

Adam

I am not conservative!!!

 

[John_of_Woking]

amarischuk:

Patg, in other words: Turn off your head.

Don’t worry. I have heard this answer here too many times before. Ironic they should post it on an apologetics site. So often the conservative position boils down to blind acceptance which unfortunately makes Catholicism just like every other religion on earth. And just as every other religion on earth has its lunatic fringe, so does Catholicism. A sad state for the Church.

Perhaps John of Woking would prefer the Albigensians to the Catholic Church. I know of no other religion which was so able to suppress the sensitive appetite to foster their own notion of “spiritual growth.”

They claim to know that they are right, but then only those with the gift of faith can know. I didn’t realize Catholicism was so gnostic.

Adam

“Turn off our head”. No way! Just allow your mind to submit to Truth and the promptings of Grace and then the peneterating rays of the Spirit will illumine what, without the promptings of grace, may appear folly. Our Reason is clouded by the stain of Original Sin.It needs healing through Grace. Concupisence muddles our judgment and leads to random insults .

 

[patg]

4 marks:

If the position you present is to be taken to heart, Jesus can not be counted upon to have shown us “the way.” He would be, at best, a middle eastern peasant sage with, as Crossan puts it, “a quick wit and a profound knack for telling stories.”

I don’t take that as a logical conclusion.

The human heart is, by design, restless. It will never be satisfied by empty promises or fabrications.

That’s what I am trying to avoid. Ignorance of history and disregard of its importance is what gives us the fabrications we have today. Dei Verbum stresses that the hsitory, literary form and culture which produced the stories alll must be considered.

If the Truth, in its fullness is not to be found within the Catholic faith, then one must be honest with one’s self and seek the Truth elsewhere. It is nothing short of pure hypocrisy for one who doesn’t embrace the fullness of the Catholic faith to remain within the Catholic church. Have you considered looking elsewhere? You really owe it to yourself to do so.

I don’t have to look elsewhere - the Truth in faith and morals is found in the Catholic Church; the Truth in science, math, history, geology, etc. is NOT. The term “fullness” that you thow around as if it covers everything applies only to faith and morals - it is sheer ignorance to apply it to other things (it is also clearly against Church teaching).

 

[John_of_Woking]

patg:

I don’t take that as a logical conclusion.
That’s what I am trying to avoid. Ignorance of history and disregard of its importance is what gives us the fabrications we have today. Dei Verbum stresses that the hsitory, literary form and culture which produced the stories alll must be considered.

I don’t have to look elsewhere - the Truth in faith and morals is found in the Catholic Church; the Truth in science, math, history, geology, etc. is NOT. The term “fullness” that you thow around as if it covers everything applies only to faith and morals - it is sheer ignorance to apply it to other things (it is also clearly against Church teaching).

I am glad you acknowledge that The Truth of Faith and Morals is found in the Catholic Church . Including a prohibition against contraception.

 

[patg]

John of Woking:

I am glad you acknowledge that The Truth of Faith and Morals is found in the Catholic Church . Including a prohibition against contraception.

I guess that really makes me a cafeteria heretic!

 

[GKB_Protasius]

For what it is worth, I’m a convert to Catholicism, from, for want of a better word “cynicism”. I did not want to be Catholic. However, I found that the more I studied, the more I found my arguements answered and confounded, and in the end, I sought entry into the Church. I still couldn’t quite wrap my head around some issues, especially sexual ones, but I was convinced that Holy Mother Church is who she says she is and is much older then me, and her spouse is beyond age, so I should try and trust her.

It’s been several years since I was baptized and entered the Church and I believe very firmly that when John of Wonking states “Our Reason is clouded by the stain of Original Sin.It needs healing through Grace. Concupisence muddles our judgment…” he is quite right. There were many things that I couldn’t quite understand that I am just now getting. I had a hard time with contraception, but now that I’m married and using NFP, I am finally understanding more and more. I think Confucius said something about not really being able to get things until he was 80, so I’m hoping I can understand more and more as I age and grow in experience (I’m only 26).

It’s true that things are often murky, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t see clearly. Were Jesus to come tomorrow people wouldn’t believe it was him. He could perform miracles and even those who saw them might say that they were tricked or hynpotized rather than believe that they really happened. In the end, things are murky, it seems to me, because we are finite beings and because of the need of Grace that John of Wonking so clearly describes.

Just my two cents…I still have a lot to learn, but as someone from the outside of the Church who came in, I am so happy to be here and I think I can see more clearly than ever before! I can’t imagine picking and choosing. I have been shown to be wrong so many times by Holy Mother Church, and I will continue, through reason and prayer, to seek to understand her.
peace in Christ,
Frank Rausch