Why is it that Cathloics praying to Mary or The saints a bigstumbling block

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non-cathloic do they not read the bible and they will say dead people can not heard our prays
Praying to and with departed Saints and petitioning for their prayers is not necromancy. When a Christian petitions in prayer for prayer and aid from a glorified heavenly saint he/she is communing with the saints which are still part of the body of Christ; this is no different then had they asked family and friends still here on earth to pray for them. The truly dead are forever separated from God but glorified Saints are not only not separated from God but they are not separated from the body of Christ either! That is why both Jesus and the children of God can receive comfort and aid from glorified and departed saints, because they are not dead but alive just like the Bible says!
 
We ask for intercession, we don’t pray to the saints. Praying to the saints would be a form of idoltry, since only God may be prayed to, for prayer is union with God. But we don’t pray to saints. We just ask for their intercession. Sometimes, though, we say “we pray to the saints”, because we forget that using incorrect language can spell disasterous results, but when we do say that, what we mean is that we ask for the saints’ intercession.

I can give an illustration, if that will help. On one hand, we pray to God, we ask Him for everything and we give Him thanks and praise. On the other hand, we ask the saints to pray to God for us, to obtain from Him graces. It is probably this - obtaining grace - that confuses non-Catholics, who think ‘How can a saint obtain a grace? Isn’t that something only God can do?’ God alone dispenses His graces, but He dose so through creatures: so He speaks to men through angels, He gives wisdom to men through wise leaders, He saves souls from evil through the talents of heros, He brings babes into the world through mothers. It is not because God can’t do it Himself, but because He is so omnipotent that He has given unto us many channels of graces, so to speak. But non-Catholics may not understand this, yet it is easy to understood once you see that, just as Jesus came into the world through Mary, so dose His graces come into the world through creatures.
 
Eucharisted said:
We ask for intercession, we don’t pray to the saints. Praying to the saints would be a form of idoltry, since only God may be prayed to, for prayer is union with God. But we don’t pray to saints. We just ask for their intercession. Sometimes, though, we say “we pray to the saints”, because we forget that using incorrect language can spell disasterous results, but when we do say that, what we mean is that we ask for the saints’ intercession.

I can give an illustration, if that will help. On one hand, we pray to God, we ask Him for everything and we give Him thanks and praise. On the other hand, we ask the saints to pray to God for us, to obtain from Him graces. It is probably this - obtaining grace - that confuses non-Catholics, who think ‘How can a saint obtain a grace? Isn’t that something only God can do?’ God alone dispenses His graces, but He dose so through creatures: so He speaks to men through angels, He gives wisdom to men through wise leaders, He saves souls from evil through the talents of heros, He brings babes into the world through mothers. It is not because God can’t do it Himself, but because He is so omnipotent that He has given unto us many channels of graces, so to speak. But non-Catholics may not understand this, yet it is easy to understood once you see that, just as Jesus came into the world through Mary, so dose His graces come into the world through creatures.
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Thank you for your answer you must be cathloic,Thank God…have a great day and may Our Lord bless You
 
Eucharisted said:
We ask for intercession, we don’t pray to the saints. Praying to the saints would be a form of idoltry, since only God may be prayed to, for prayer is union with God. But we don’t pray to saints. We just ask for their intercession. Sometimes, though, we say “we pray to the saints”, because we forget that using incorrect language can spell disasterous results, but when we do say that, what we mean is that we ask for the saints’ intercession.
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I guess I just have a hard time seeing the distinction between praying to someone who is no longer living and asking for something of someone who is no longer living. Well, sure, the saints are living with God, but does that actually give them the ability to hear us? I know Biblically that God can always hear me, whether I speak out loud or say something in my mind, but can a saint hear me if I just say something in my mind? How does a saint have that ability? Is it in the Scriptures that saints have that ability? It seems to me that Catholics are assigning God-like abilities to saints if they say that saints can hear their requests, and it just seems like a nit-picky semantic difference to say that making such a requst is not actually praying, when you are making it to someone who has a God-like ability. At least that is why I see it as a stumblingblock, anyway. I don’t know if that is how others see it.
 
Bookworm88 said:
I guess I just have a hard time seeing the distinction between praying to someone who is no longer living and asking for something of someone who is no longer living. Well, sure, the saints are living with God, but does that actually give them the ability to hear us? I know Biblically that God can always hear me, whether I speak out loud or say something in my mind, but can a saint hear me if I just say something in my mind? How does a saint have that ability? Is it in the Scriptures that saints have that ability? It seems to me that Catholics are assigning God-like abilities to saints if they say that saints can hear their requests, and it just seems like a nit-picky semantic difference to say that making such a requst is not actually praying, when you are making it to someone who has a God-like ability. At least that is why I see it as a stumblingblock, anyway. I don’t know if that is how others see it.
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The teaching of the catholic church about the saints is that they can help by way of intercessory prayers to God for those who seek help.
 
Bookworm88 said:
I guess I just have a hard time seeing the distinction between praying to someone who is no longer living and asking for something of someone who is no longer living. Well, sure, the saints are living with God, but does that actually give them the ability to hear us? I know Biblically that God can always hear me, whether I speak out loud or say something in my mind, but can a saint hear me if I just say something in my mind? How does a saint have that ability? Is it in the Scriptures that saints have that ability? It seems to me that Catholics are assigning God-like abilities to saints if they say that saints can hear their requests, and it just seems like a nit-picky semantic difference to say that making such a requst is not actually praying, when you are making it to someone who has a God-like ability. At least that is why I see it as a stumblingblock, anyway. I don’t know if that is how others see it.
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Hi Bookworm

As a human being I have a God-like ability (possibly several :)) - for example - I have the ability to forgive another person. Just like God has the ability to forgive another. Does that make me like God? Of course not. In exactly the same way, the saints and angels may have some abilites similar to God (just as we do), but they most certainly are not God and are very much more limited than God himself. And we don’t treat them as being like God. We honour them as incredible souls and fantastic examples to us, who are now united with God in heaven, and we ask them to support us in our petitions and prayers. Just as we would ask others here on earth to pray for us.

As for scriptural references to saints - there are many - may I suggest you look at www.scripturecatholic.com/saints ?

Keep well
 
Patrick_Cox said:
Hi Bookworm

As a human being I have a God-like ability (possibly several :)) - for example - I have the ability to forgive another person. Just like God has the ability to forgive another. Does that make me like God? Of course not.
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Is your ability to forgive another person really just like God’s ability to forgive? Really? I have the ability to hear someone talking to me, but I don’t have God’s ability to hear someone from 100 miles away unless thay are on the phone. God doesn’t need a phone, but people do. So if someone claimes that they can hear me from 100 miles away without a phone, then I have the suspicion that they are claiming God-like abilities that are completely unlike anything we humans can actually have.
In exactly the same way, the saints and angels may have some abilites similar to God (just as we do), but they most certainly are not God and are very much more limited than God himself. And we don’t treat them as being like God. We honour them as incredible souls and fantastic examples to us, who are now united with God in heaven, and we ask them to support us in our petitions and prayers. Just as we would ask others here on earth to pray for us.
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But this still doesn’t answer my question as to the specific support for WHY they can hear us when we ask them something. When I ask a friend to pray for me, I do it in a manner that I know they can hear, either in person or on the phone. But how do I know that a saint, or even an angel for that matter, can hear me when I think something?
As for scriptural references to saints - there are many - may I suggest you look at www.scripturecatholic.com/saints ?
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Keep well
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I tried the link but it didn’t work. I do know there are verses about saints, but do any of the ones in the link talk about saints hearing requests?
 
Bookworm88 said:
Is your ability to forgive another person really just like God’s ability to forgive? Really? I have the ability to hear someone talking to me, but I don’t have God’s ability to hear someone from 100 miles away unless thay are on the phone. God doesn’t need a phone, but people do. So if someone claimes that they can hear me from 100 miles away without a phone, then I have the suspicion that they are claiming God-like abilities that are completely unlike anything we humans can actually have.

But this still doesn’t answer my question as to the specific support for WHY they can hear us when we ask them something. When I ask a friend to pray for me, I do it in a manner that I know they can hear, either in person or on the phone. But how do I know that a saint, or even an angel for that matter, can hear me when I think something?

I tried the link but it didn’t work. I do know there are verses about saints, but do any of the ones in the link talk about saints hearing requests?
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Hi Bookworm

As to your first question, Jesus himself said: “Those who’s sins you retain, they are retained; those who’s sins you forgive, they are forgiven.” So in this regard I would say we actually do share the ability to forgive. When God forgives sins they are forgiven - and when a person forgives sins they are also forgiven (the very words of Jesus himself). I don’t see that as being a difficult or controversial thing to understand.

Your example of the telephone and being 100 miles away doesn’t disprove anything - it merely gives an example of a quality that God has which we as humans do not - there are of course many of those! There are some “abilities” we would share with God and there are plenty we do not. The point is - one can ascribe certain (but not all) “abilities” to the saints without saying they are the same as God - because they most certainly are not the same as God. I think every Catholic would safely agree with me on that statement.
However, I would say that the saints do possess certain “abilities” which we as humans do not possess… and one might well go as far as to say (loosely stated) that these abilities are more like God.

Granted though - you still want a physical literal biblical reference as to why they can hear us - OK, I have altered the link slightly - try www.scripturecatholic.com and then click on the link “Saints”. I hope you get through this time… please let me know if you do…

I am now going to anticipate the possibility that if you are a literalist in your biblical interpretation, even these quotes may not satisfy you for answers because the exact words “the saints hear us” are not specifically used. It is however understood on the basis of all the quotes mentioned. If for you it is for any reason not understood, then we would have to reach into the realm beyond scriptures which of course for many strictly bible-only based believers becomes difficult to accept…

I will say the following though: there are many many cases of incredibly blessed human beings over the ages who have communicated with saints and indeed with angels and Mary herself. You might ask me to prove this… well, the kind of proof you require I may not be able to offer you…it may not be able to be proved scientifically. But here the phrase “you shall know them by their fruits” applies… and along with the cases of those who have communicated with saints and the angels come many incredible miracles and signs…

Finally I leave you with a thought… can you prove to me that love exists… Go ahead - I challenge you to prove it! It is not possible to do this, is it?. We know love exists because we feel it - love is real. But can we actually prove it?

OK - enough for now - I hope you get through to that link - let me know whether this goes any way to convincing you or not…

Keep well and God bless

Patrick
 
BILL PICK said:
non-cathloic do they not read the bible and they will say dead people can not heard our prays
Praying to and with departed Saints and petitioning for their prayers is not necromancy. When a Christian petitions in prayer for prayer and aid from a glorified heavenly saint he/she is communing with the saints which are still part of the body of Christ; this is no different then had they asked family and friends still here on earth to pray for them. The truly dead are forever separated from God but glorified Saints are not only not separated from God but they are not separated from the body of Christ either! That is why both Jesus and the children of God can receive comfort and aid from glorified and departed saints, because they are not dead but alive just like the Bible says!
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Great question. I don’t think it should be. I think the only fear people have is that might be seen as taking the place of praying to Christ one-on-one, which isn’t the case.
 
reteeks21 said:
Great question. I don’t think it should be. I think the only fear people have is that might be seen as taking the place of praying to Christ one-on-one, which isn’t the case./QUOT non-cathloic have a hard time with Cathloic teaching because of sola scriptura and private interpreatation.
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BILL PICK said:
Lets not forget their private interpretation and the Sunday school teacher interpreatations
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That has nothing to do with what I was asking. That’s the staple answer you throw out, but that is not even close to what I was asking.
 
reteeks21 said:
And catholics don’t?
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If our priest teaches an erroneous doctrine not conforming to the dogmas and other doctrines of the catholic church, we, laymen, can bring this problem to the higher ups, the Parish priest, the Bishops, or for extreme cases to the Pope.
But in Protestantism, where would you go, if this happens in your church, because they (Pastors) are independent of their teachings as long as it is found in the bible. Am I not right?
 
Lapulapu said:
If our priest teaches an erroneous doctrine not conforming to the dogmas and other doctrines of the catholic church, we, laymen, can bring this problem to the higher ups, the Parish priest, the Bishops, or for extreme cases to the Pope.
But in Protestantism, where would you go, if this happens in your church, because they (Pastors) are independent of their teachings as long as it is found in the bible. Am I not right?
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This is exactly the problem. Fundamental Protestants can find all manner of mutually-exclusive conclusions while reading the same Bible. Apart from the historical understanding of the Church, there is nowhere to appeal. Apart from the historical understanding there is hermeneutical chaos.

“Found in the Bible” is potentially one of the most subjective, ambiguous and ultimately meaningless terms in the history of the English language.
 
JonNC said:
Bill, do use have a source for your lack of understanding of what sola scriptura really is?
In all charity and respect, Bill, please read this:

modernreformation.org/default.php?page=printfriendly&var1=Print&var2=19

Thanks,
Jon
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Jon Yes I have many source for the false teaching of SS or Bible alone. Do you have any source B4 1500 it was started by Martin Luther. Get the book scripture Alone By Joel Peters and you to will have your source,I can give you at lest 21 reasons to reject the false teaching of Sola Scriptura. Have a great day and may Our Lord bless you…BTW you can get the book at Tan
 
BILL PICK said:
Jon Yes I have many source for the false teaching of SS or Bible alone. Do you have any source B4 1500 it was started by Martin Luther. Get the book scripture Alone By Joel Peters and you to will have your source,I can give you at lest 21 reasons to reject the false teaching of Sola Scriptura. Have a great day and may Our Lord bless you…BTW you can get the book at Tan
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Bill, read the article, and you will see where classic SS comes from. When you say things like, “Lets not forget their private interpretation and the Sunday school teacher interpreatations” it just appears that you don’t understand ss, whether or not you consider it false. I would agree with you that, as you describe it here, SS is false.

I was raised Lutheran, went through Catechetical Class and Confirmation. Never once was I told to interpret scripture for myself, or that I even had the freedom to do so. I was taught from scripture, the confessions, etc. As Martin Chemnitz said:
This is also certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages… We also gratefully and reverently use the labors of the fathers who by their commentaries have profitably clarified many passages of the Scripture. And we confess that we are greatly confirmed by the testimonies of the ancient church in the true and sound understanding of the Scripture. Nor do we approve of it if someone invents for himself a meaning which conflicts with all antiquity, and for which there are clearly no testimonies of the church.
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So, from the earliest, personal interpretation of scripture is discouraged.

Jon
 
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