Why is it that Cathloics praying to Mary or The saints a bigstumbling block

[simplynoone]

As a Lutheran, I find this line of thinking perilous. While I don’t practice intercession of the BVM and saints, I am reluctant to condemn it as you have here. This is a practice that dates back to the early church. While there have been abuses in the past, it is, to me, and when properly understood by participants, a pious activity that has brought comfort to billions of Christians, east and west, through the centuries.

We may disagree as to whether or not it is God’s wish, or scriptural, but I don’t think it is anything akin to the occult, and I don’t think it is an abomination as presented here.

Jon

The honest truth is this… when you become the Creator of a world with beings, you can declare it NOT an abomination. He, the Creator of Life, declared it an abomination. Are any of these saints alive? And if they are not walking around among this living and present world in their physical bodies, the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT!! Therefore, it is an abomination. You are a creation like me and we do not make the declarations of what is or is not an abomination, as the creation. If you do not think this is a fair declaration, then do not base your belief system on the Tanakh… because that is what it says and it is clear and He says He does not change. Therefore, calling upon the spirits of the dead, whether of saints or not, IS an abomination according to His Word. It is simple really.

 

[LilyM]

Do you have the power right now to hear people pray a thousand miles away? I don’t think you do, so when I say that the people up in heaven do not have that power, I am not assigning them LESS power than you have.

Yes - if they call me up on the telephone, or email me, or post on this site asking for prayers. You’re not suggesting, I hope, that mere lack of physical proximity is any barrier at all.

So when we get to heaven, and we are like Christ, do we have all the other attributes of Christ as well, such as being onmiscient and omnipresent? Surely you are not saying that we have those attributes as well. So why would you think we have the attribute of hearing everybody praying from here on earth? Christ not only hears prayers, but can also see every sinful action we commit. Do you also believe the saints have the ability to see all our sinful actions?

Logical fallacy. Prayer does NOT necessitate the saints being omniscient (since they don’t have to see or hear ALL people on earth, merely those small number who at any given time may choose to address them in particular) nor omnipresent (again, why are you suggesting they need to be in the physical presence of a person to hear them, when we don’t need to be?).

I notice you used the phrase “at times.” When God had a special revelation to give to someone, then God gave that revelation, but that does not mean that John continued to have that ability apart from that special circumstance.

Prayer - and prayer for others - is something every Christian is commanded to do in numerous places in scripture. James tells us that the prayers of a righteous person avail much. Why, just when a Christian has most power in their prayer and are most righteous - when they are in glory in heaven - would they suddenly be deprived of the ability to pray? It doesn’t compute.

Why would they surely need to hear them? I am a mailman, so I deliver letters to people every day, but I surely do not read the letters in order to deliver them.

Did Gabriel pass an unopened envelope from God over to Mary and say 'I’m just passing on this message from the Big Boss, its contents are none of my concern - in fact I lack the capacity to even know what they are, I’m just a witless robot?"

Gabriel was trusted, and given the power, to KNOW God’s mind, God’s thoughts and God’s business - at least as much of them as was sufficient to his mission - yet according to you he was too incapable to know Mary’s mind, thoughts and business, in like manner? What kind of a messenger do you think he was?

Yes, when God assigned angels to specific tasks, they fulfilled those tasks, but I don’t see the Bible stating that angels have a prayer answering service. When people would talk to the angels, such as Gabriel, they talked to angels who had appeared in front of them. They didn’t pray to angels who were not right there with them.

Haven’t you learned about angels? They are incorporeal spirits. Unlike we fleshly creatures, angels don’t HAVE to be physically in any particular place to do their job. Nor do they have to use ordinary human means of communication either. Did the angel not communicate with Joseph (not once but several times) and the Kings - all by appearing in their dreams? Impossible for a human, possible and common for angels.

Can you show me where in the Bible we have intercession being the assigned role of Michael and Gabriel. The Bible actually describes only Christ as being our intercessor

.

Wrong wrong wrong. Christ is our mediator, which is quite a different thing.

Paul in fact was an intercessor for every person he prayed for, every person he asked to pray for him was an intercessor for him. We ALL intercede for ALL mankind when we pray the Our Father (which is why it’s not the MY Father - and why we ask Him to forgive OUR trespasses, not just MINE).

That doesn’t “stand to reason” in my mind at all. I could be a puny 5 foot tall general in the army, and I would be higher than a 6 foot, 300 pound private. I would have more aothority, but that doesn’t mean I would have all his attributes.

But saying a heavenly saint can’t receive specific prayer requests at all (and by your logic saints couldn’t) is like saying that a general not only has less authority than his privates, but furthermore is incapable of the simplest and most necessary task of any soldier, whatever the rank. All soldiers, from generals on down, need a certain basic level of physical fitness to do their jobs. Generals may be less fit than a private fresh out of basic training, but your statement is like saying one can be a good soldier and physically totally out of shape.

 

[ICA04]

non-cathloic do they not read the bible and they will say dead people can not heard our prays
Praying to and with departed Saints and petitioning for their prayers is not necromancy. When a Christian petitions in prayer for prayer and aid from a glorified heavenly saint he/she is communing with the saints which are still part of the body of Christ; this is no different then had they asked family and friends still here on earth to pray for them. The truly dead are forever separated from God but glorified Saints are not only not separated from God but they are not separated from the body of Christ either! That is why both Jesus and the children of God can receive comfort and aid from glorified and departed saints, because they are not dead but alive just like the Bible says!

You seem to have the scoop on everybody that isn’t Catholic. The problem is that you really don’t. We acknowledge Mary and the saints. We pray with the communion of saints to God. We pray WITH, not TO. There is a difference. The saints can petition in prayer with us to God. Nothing unbiblical about that.

 

[graceandglory]

non-cathloic do they not read the bible and they will say dead people can not heard our prays
Praying to and with departed Saints and petitioning for their prayers is not necromancy. When a Christian petitions in prayer for prayer and aid from a glorified heavenly saint he/she is communing with the saints which are still part of the body of Christ; this is no different then had they asked family and friends still here on earth to pray for them. The truly dead are forever separated from God but glorified Saints are not only not separated from God but they are not separated from the body of Christ either! That is why both Jesus and the children of God can receive comfort and aid from glorified and departed saints, because they are not dead but alive just like the Bible says!

Have you thought of sharing with them what the catechism says about necromancy?

Necromancy is a sin. They are afraid of it.
But how did they learn Necromancy is a sin, except to trust the Bible and the Church that gave us the Bible?

Just like you said, THE SAINTS AREN’T DEAD!!!

Jesus said The Kingdom of God is at Hand…(ie: beginning now.) Our Life in Christ begins now, and never ends.

Catholics believe necromancy is a sin. Seances are a sin. Share with them what the Church teaches is necromancy. And see if they still are confused. Maybe it’s an issue they have with everlasting LIFE that is the problem.

 

[graceandglory]

The honest truth is this… when you become the Creator of a world with beings, you can declare it NOT an abomination. He, the Creator of Life, declared it an abomination. Are any of these saints alive? And if they are not walking around among this living and present world in their physical bodies, the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT!! Therefore, it is an abomination. You are a creation like me and we do not make the declarations of what is or is not an abomination, as the creation. If you do not think this is a fair declaration, then do not base your belief system on the Tanakh… because that is what it says and it is clear and He says He does not change. Therefore, calling upon the spirits of the dead, whether of saints or not, IS an abomination according to His Word. It is simple really.

First off, please give your Tanakh references.

Calling upon the spirits of the dead is a sin. It is for Catholics too. I don’t have the verse in front of me. If scripture says it’s an abomination, then it is, plain and simple.

**Why do you insist on calling those alive in Christ the “spritis of the dead?” **

They aren’t. You are wrong here. It is simple. You are mistaking the alive for the dead.
apples and oranges.
If a Catholic practices communicating with dead people, going to seances, etc, that would be an abomination.

 

[simplynoone]

Have you thought of sharing with them what the catechism says about necromancy?

Necromancy is a sin. They are afraid of it.
But how did they learn Necromancy is a sin, except to trust the Bible and the Church that gave us the Bible?

Just like you said, THE SAINTS AREN’T DEAD!!!

Jesus said The Kingdom of God is at Hand…(ie: beginning now.) Our Life in Christ begins now, and never ends.

Catholics believe necromancy is a sin. Seances are a sin. Share with them what the Church teaches is necromancy. And see if they still are confused. Maybe it’s an issue they have with everlasting LIFE that is the problem.

Deuteronomy 18:
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or** a consulter with familiar spirits**, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

The Saints are dead. Unless they are walking around on this earth in the flesh, they are dead. You can not use that as an excuse to differentiate what you are doing from those who would admit that, yes, they are consulting with spirits or practicing necromancy.

What you are doing by denying the obvious is also spoken of…

Psalm 11:9
An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

oh… note it does not say, but through FAITH shall the just be delivered. I am only trying to show you what the Word of God says. You can believe the men who tell you that this is different, but don’t forget the following passage either.

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

The issue of “praying to Mary” or the Saints is a huge issue with Protestants, the issue is so huge that the late Dr. Walter Martin stated flat out:

“I want to make it clear at the beginning that I put much emphasis upon knowing the doctrine of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology because if any one doctrine in the Roman Catholic formula of theology would cause us, on Biblical grounds, to withdraw from fellowship with them, this would be the doctrine.” Walter Martin, The Roman Catholic Church in History (Livingston, NJ: Christian Research Institute, Inc., 1960), pp. 45-46.

I believe the major problem is that Protestants see what Catholics do and recite etc about Mary and the Saints and they put their interpretation INTO what they see. The Protestant should go and inquire as to WHY Catholics do certain things and WHAT it means. This would clear up some confusion.

I would like to ask some fellow Catholics in here…Imagine yourself as a Lutheran or Presbyterian, a staunch believer etc…and you come across the following prayer… from the prayer recited by Pope Pius XII at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiori in Rome on the opening of the Marian Year:

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus, and our Mother Mary… We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

"O, crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O, conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell.

"O, well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church…

“Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications and, above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne, that hymn which is sung today around your altars, You are all beautiful, O Mary. You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people.”

What would your first reaction be? Would it be “wow this is plain idolatry!!” BTW here was Dr. Walter R. Martin’s response to the prayer:

To the contrary, Christ is the author and finisher of faith. Mary is not the “glory and joy and honor of Christians”—Jesus Christ is our glory. In Him is the hope of glory. He is our joy. Christ is the One we honor. Yet it is clear, just from reading this prayer, that titles are conferred upon Mary which belong to God. To “convert the wicked”* is the job of the Holy Spirit**, who “convicts the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.” Mary does not give comfort to all Christians. That is the very reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit—to be our "Comforter."

In the Catholic Church the faithful say, “Our life, our sweetness and our hope, to thee we cry, poor banished children of Eve.” Even giving Mary her due right, she is not our life—Jesus Christ is our life. She is not the sweetness of our life—Jesus Christ is the sweetness of our life. Mary is not our hope because **“Christ in you is the hope of glory.” *From a biblical perspective, it is more than clear that the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholic theology.

Sometimes in order to understand we have to be willing to see other people’s perspective.

 

[JonNC]

=simplynoone;4957470]Deuteronomy 18:
11 Or a charmer, or** a consulter with familiar spirits**, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Who is consulting with spirits? Even when I ask, in my church, for people to intercede for a loved one through prayer, it is not a consultation. Consultation requires a give and take.

The Saints are dead.

Moses, too?

Jon

 

[adolfo123]

I guess I just have a hard time seeing the distinction between praying to someone who is no longer living and asking for something of someone who is no longer living. Well, sure, the saints are living with God, but does that actually give them the ability to hear us? I know Biblically that God can always hear me, whether I speak out loud or say something in my mind, but can a saint hear me if I just say something in my mind? How does a saint have that ability? Is it in the Scriptures that saints have that ability? It seems to me that Catholics are assigning God-like abilities to saints if they say that saints can hear their requests, and it just seems like a nit-picky semantic difference to say that making such a requst is not actually praying, when you are making it to someone who has a God-like ability. At least that is why I see it as a stumblingblock, anyway. I don’t know if that is how others see it.

I am going to just answer if they have the ability, In hebrew 12 they the saints and angels and God is call a great cloud of witness… and also it is said the we come onto them all…

I will not get into all the theology of this but if they have that ability then they have too partake of the nature of God ( the divine nature) and the bible say’s they do :2Pe 1:4 Through these, the greatest and priceless promises have been lavished on us, that through them you should share the divine nature and escape the corruption rife in the world through disordered passion.

here is hebrew 12 verses i am talking about:

Heb 12:1 With so many witnesses in a great cloud all around us, we too, then, should throw off everything that weighs us down and the sin that clings so closely, and with perseverance keep running in the race which lies ahead of us.

Heb 12:22 But what you have come to is Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where the millions of angels have gathered for the festival,
Heb 12:23 with the whole Church of first-born sons, enrolled as citizens of heaven. You have come to God himself, the supreme Judge, and to the spirits of the upright who have been made perfect;
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Just a few comments:

1. Not all non-Roman Catholics are sola scriptura and “private interpreters”. That is not the answer to some people’s concerns about saints and Mary.
2. Many Non-Roman Catholic faith traditions do honor the saints, and say prayers for them. As well, there is nothing wrong with intercessory prayer in and of itself.
3. However, if you mean to suggest that somehow God decides whether or not to answer a prayer based on whether some saints have added their prayers as well, in addition to a number of others, then you posit a God rather strange I would say. If the request is worthy, it should need no further boost from others, saints or otherwise.
4. There is certainly nothing wrong in praying for assistance in discerning truth or wisdom from a saint considered wise and knowledgeable by many estimations.
5. The bottom line, there is probably nothing wrong in praying to saints for help, but I suspect God is wise enough to make the decision without counting heads.
6. As to Mary, some have gone overboard. My own Godmother had a overabundance to Marian fervor to the degree that Mary was all she prayed to. I think there are plenty of Roman Catholics who would agree that Mariology has been a bit overblown. That is why so many do not agree with the Roman Catholic position that she was assumed or crowned. There is simply no biblical evidence of this, and while it may be a logical deduction, not all logical deductions are necessarily true. I love the rosary, but I find the last two decades of the glorious series untenable. That is coming from one who took the name Mary as my confirmation name because her assumption was declared in the year of my birth. LOL.

 

[LilyM]

Spirit Meadow - you are quite wrong, and show a total misunderstanding of Catholic prayer, to say that Mary was ‘all she prayed to’.

Firstly - she went to Mass, at least weekly, one assumes. The prayers of the Mass are not addressed to Mary, they are addressed to God direct, although some mention Mary. Therefore the Mass is not a Marian prayer.

Furthermore, the Mass is by far our greatest prayer - worth much more than any amount of rosaries and whatever else have you in the way of prayer. So THAT prayer to God totally balances out any number of prayers to Mary she may have said at other times.

All this is basic sacramental theology - which your grandmother probably understood better than you do.

 

[ICA04]

Spirit Meadow - you are quite wrong, and show a total misunderstanding of Catholic prayer, to say that Mary was ‘all she prayed to’.

How in the world can you tell someone that they are wrong about what they personally observed about their own God parent? Some of you folks are really going off the deep end here.

You assume much. I think that this poster knows and observes much more than you are willing to admit or give him/her credit for.

 

[Patrick_Cox]

You seem to have the scoop on everybody that isn’t Catholic. The problem is that you really don’t. We acknowledge Mary and the saints. We pray with the communion of saints to God. We pray WITH, not TO. There is a difference. The saints can petition in prayer with us to God. Nothing unbiblical about that.

Using the phrase “praying TO” Mary and /or the saints does understandably create confusion amongst some of those who are not of the Catholic faith, and that is where the problem arises. You are 100% correct. As Catholics we do NOT pray to Mary and the saints. We ask them to intercede on our behalf or to pray with us just as we might ask those on earth to pray with / for us. We only pray to God. Sometimes Catholics loosely use the word “to” and it understandably does cause confusion. The thing is, amongst Catholics themselves it doesn’t cause confusion (except perhaps for the most ignorant few amongst us ) because we all know what we mean. But PLEASE ALL - let there be no confusion - The only being that we Catholics pray to is God himself. We just like to get as many influential others, be they alive on earth or alive in heaven, on our side . So we ask them to join us in our prayers. It really is that straight-forward!

Patrick

 

[Patrick_Cox]

The issue of “praying to Mary” or the Saints is a huge issue with Protestants, the issue is so huge that the late Dr. Walter Martin stated flat out:

“I want to make it clear at the beginning that I put much emphasis upon knowing the doctrine of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology because if any one doctrine in the Roman Catholic formula of theology would cause us, on Biblical grounds, to withdraw from fellowship with them, this would be the doctrine.” Walter Martin, The Roman Catholic Church in History (Livingston, NJ: Christian Research Institute, Inc., 1960), pp. 45-46.

I believe the major problem is that Protestants see what Catholics do and recite etc about Mary and the Saints and they put their interpretation INTO what they see. The Protestant should go and inquire as to WHY Catholics do certain things and WHAT it means. This would clear up some confusion.

I would like to ask some fellow Catholics in here…Imagine yourself as a Lutheran or Presbyterian, a staunch believer etc…and you come across the following prayer… from the prayer recited by Pope Pius XII at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiori in Rome on the opening of the Marian Year:

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus, and our Mother Mary… We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

"O, crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O, conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell.

"O, well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church…

“Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications and, above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne, that hymn which is sung today around your altars, You are all beautiful, O Mary. You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people.”

What would your first reaction be? Would it be “wow this is plain idolatry!!” BTW here was Dr. Walter R. Martin’s response to the prayer:

To the contrary, Christ is the author and finisher of faith. Mary is not the “glory and joy and honor of Christians”—Jesus Christ is our glory. In Him is the hope of glory. He is our joy. Christ is the One we honor. Yet it is clear, just from reading this prayer, that titles are conferred upon Mary which belong to God. To “convert the wicked”** is the job of the Holy Spirit**, who “convicts the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.” Mary does not give comfort to all Christians. That is the very reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit—to be our "Comforter."

In the Catholic Church the faithful say, “Our life, our sweetness and our hope, to thee we cry, poor banished children of Eve.” Even giving Mary her due right, she is not our life—Jesus Christ is our life. She is not the sweetness of our life—Jesus Christ is the sweetness of our life. Mary is not our hope because **“Christ in you is the hope of glory.” **From a biblical perspective, it is more than clear that the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholic theology.

Sometimes in order to understand we have to be willing to see other people’s perspective.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Spirit Meadow - you are quite wrong, and show a total misunderstanding of Catholic prayer, to say that Mary was ‘all she prayed to’.

Firstly - she went to Mass, at least weekly, one assumes. The prayers of the Mass are not addressed to Mary, they are addressed to God direct, although some mention Mary. Therefore the Mass is not a Marian prayer.

Furthermore, the Mass is by far our greatest prayer - worth much more than any amount of rosaries and whatever else have you in the way of prayer. So THAT prayer to God totally balances out any number of prayers to Mary she may have said at other times.

All this is basic sacramental theology - which your grandmother probably understood better than you do.

With all due respect Lily, I don’t think I misunderstand a thing. Since I suspect I know my GODmother much better than you, I might know better than you. Of course, in the Mass, one follows along and prayers are given as directed toward God. We all know this, and when I was Roman Catholic I did so. I was not speaking to that. I was speaking to what prayers she addressed when she had the CHOICE to address whom she desired. And I can assure you that her devotion to Mary was extraordinary, and I seldom if ever heard her remark of Jesus or God the Father/Mother.

I would agree that the Mass prayers or other great prayers such as the Our Father are most important, and we in all denominations give emphasis to that, certainly as well in the consecration and in the confession of sin, and other such practices. These are used by most communities to address God directly.

I have no idea on what basis you conclude that some prayers are “worth more” than others. I can think of no basis for that conclusion. On what do you base your conclusion that prayers at Sunday services “balance” out all prayers to others? This would be a RC dogma I am unfamiliar with and would like to be so enlightened.

I would ask your basis for believing that my GODmother knew more sacramental theology than myself.? Do you know her?

 

[Eternaly_Secure]

non-cathloic do they not read the bible and they will say dead people can not heard our prays
Praying to and with departed Saints and petitioning for their prayers is not necromancy. When a Christian petitions in prayer for prayer and aid from a glorified heavenly saint he/she is communing with the saints which are still part of the body of Christ; this is no different then had they asked family and friends still here on earth to pray for them. The truly dead are forever separated from God but glorified Saints are not only not separated from God but they are not separated from the body of Christ either! That is why both Jesus and the children of God can receive comfort and aid from glorified and departed saints, because they are not dead but alive just like the Bible says!

Please tell me, why on earth you would need to pray to a dead ‘‘saint’’ or family member when we (those who are saved) can pray to the Lord himself and he hears us.
It makes no sence whatsoever.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Using the phrase “praying TO” Mary and /or the saints does understandably create confusion amongst some of those who are not of the Catholic faith, and that is where the problem arises. You are 100% correct. As Catholics we do NOT pray to Mary and the saints. We ask them to intercede on our behalf or to pray with us just as we might ask those on earth to pray with / for us. We only pray to God. Sometimes Catholics loosely use the word “to” and it understandably does cause confusion. The thing is, amongst Catholics themselves it doesn’t cause confusion (except perhaps for the most ignorant few amongst us ) because we all know what we mean. But PLEASE ALL - let there be no confusion - The only being that we Catholics pray to is God himself. We just like to get as many influential others, be they alive on earth or alive in heaven, on our side . So we ask them to join us in our prayers. It really is that straight-forward!

Patrick

I understand Patrick your concerns. Some nonRoman Catholics do think that people pray to saints and Mary and ask THEM to grant things. But the use of the word “to” does not necessarily connote that and many of us use the term to mean that we pray “to” a saint asking them to pray “for” us in some respect. I think you agree that this is what occurs.

My remarks stand that although we all ask others to pray for us, and some of us ask that of saints and Mary, the practice is in some sense illogical, since it posits that somehow God needs this extra (name removed by moderator)ut to make a decision. God needs no such help, he hears all prayer regardless of number and knows the relative merits and value of the request. But I certainly deny no one the right to ask others to pray for them. We all do this as a matter of course whenever it seems proper given the circumstances.

 

[graceandglory]

Deuteronomy 18:
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or** a consulter with familiar spirits**, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

The Saints are dead. Unless they are walking around on this earth in the flesh, they are dead. You can not use that as an excuse to differentiate what you are doing from those who would admit that, yes, they are consulting with spirits or practicing necromancy.

What you are doing by denying the obvious is also spoken of…

Psalm 11:9
An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

oh… note it does not say, but through FAITH shall the just be delivered. I am only trying to show you what the Word of God says. You can believe the men who tell you that this is different, but don’t forget the following passage either.

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Says you and your own private interpretations of scripture.

Dude. The Kingdom of God is at hand.

Everlasting life begins today.

Yay, though he were dead, yet shall he live.

Absent from the body, ALIVE with Christ!!!

You know not what you speak of.

May the Lord open your eyes.

 

[graceandglory]

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Simplynoone,

This is exactly what you are doing. You are trusting in man, and in whoever told you that Catholics practice necromancy.

Here is what the scriptures you shared mean:

From the catechism:

(How we explain our faith)

Please read it carefully, and let us know what you disagree with.
Asking the Communion of Saints to pray for us is okay.

Necromancy is a sin against the First Commandment and is to be rejected according to the Catholic Church.

***THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3***

---

It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."***

Divination and magic

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

 

[graceandglory]

The issue of “praying to Mary” or the Saints is a huge issue with Protestants, the issue is so huge that the late Dr. Walter Martin stated flat out:

“I want to make it clear at the beginning that I put much emphasis*** upon knowing the doctrine of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology*** because if any one doctrine in the Roman Catholic formula of theology would cause us, on Biblical grounds, to withdraw from fellowship with them, this would be the doctrine.” Walter Martin, The Roman Catholic Church in History (Livingston, NJ: Christian Research Institute, Inc., 1960), pp. 45-46.

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I believe the major problem is that Protestants see what Catholics do and recite etc about Mary and the Saints and they put their interpretation INTO what they see. The Protestant should go and inquire as to WHY Catholics do certain things and WHAT it means. This would clear up some confusion.***

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Sometimes in order to understand we have to be willing to see other people’s perspective.

Probably why the late Bishop Fulton Sheen said the following:

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“There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.**”
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