Why is it that Cathloics praying to Mary or The saints a bigstumbling block

[Bookworm88]

If I pray for your conversion, having never met you or ever knowing exaclty what’s in your heart and God grants you that grace am I somehow divine? Or were my prayers divine intervention? Of course not, so why are the saints in heaven so easily misunderstood as being little divinities?

Your last little question here is a good example to illustrate my point. If you pray for my conversion, then you are not divine, but if you claim that YOU can hear me ask you to pray for someone else’s conversion, then what should I think? Does God give YOU the ability to hear far-away people who are in the Body of Christ? Are you NOT a member of the Body of Christ if you cannot hear far-away people pray to you? I keep hearing the statement that I shouldn’t be surprised that the saints in heaven hear us because they are part of the Body of Christ, but why doesn’t that same situation happen here on earth for people who are part of the body of Christ? Why can’t other believers hear my prayers without seeing me or being near me?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Your last little question here is a good example to illustrate my point. If you pray for my conversion, then you are not divine, but if you claim that YOU can hear me ask you to pray for someone else’s conversion, then what should I think?

But that’s not my point. My point is that we claim the saints who are with God are used by God to accomplish His will - that His will is that we should pray for each other to build up the Body of Christ in charity and community. It is not a claim that the saints in Heaven have a Godlike ability of their own, that they somehow merited or obtained for themselves because of their very nature. You are looking at the issue upside down and backwards. Just as God uses those who call themselves Christian in this world to do His work, God uses those in Heaven for His work as well. So, neither I nor the saints in Heaven are claiming a divine ability… we would claim we are in Christ, made for the good works that He wills.

Bookworm88:

Does God give YOU the ability to hear far-away people who are in the Body of Christ? Are you NOT a member of the Body of Christ if you cannot hear far-away people pray to you?

No. But I’m not in Heaven enjoying the beatific vision. God graces me with different gifts that I am called to employ for His glory.

Bookworm88:

I keep hearing the statement that I shouldn’t be surprised that the saints in heaven hear us because they are part of the Body of Christ, but why doesn’t that same situation happen here on earth for people who are part of the body of Christ? Why can’t other believers hear my prayers without seeing me or being near me?

Because you are on earth, you have the opportunity to interact with those about you who need your prayers and intercessions. Perhaps that is what God is calling you to do. I’m sure there are mystics elsewhere in the world who do hear God’s call to pray for persons and problems beyond the reach of their personal experience and physical sense. St. Pio was one such person. But his was not a charism that necessarily applies to all persons as you argue, just as not all persons in Heaven are recognized in the canon of saints from whom the Church seeks intercessory prayer. If - and to the extent that - others here on earth could hear or be made aware of your individual prayers that would only evidence God’s power and grace working through them. It would not somehow prove the divinity of the person who was gifted with that sort of ability. It only proves their use by God in a different way than most of us on earth.

If your logic is sound, then faith healers must be worshipped as divine - because they manifest the ability to heal miraculously. You need to ask yourself why is it that you insist that if a saint in heaven is made aware of a prayer on earth he or she is suddenly changed in nature from creation to divinity. That sort of logic makes no sense.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[JonNC]

I read that passage in Luke 15 as refering simply to the angels in heaven rejoicing. They certainly would be aware of what happens on earth since they are ministering spirits to the believers. The angels, I suppose, could make things known to the saints up in heaven, but I don’t see anything in the passage you quoted to indicate that the saints themselves can hear intercessions. So my question to you in response to your question is this: Even if there WAS awareness by the saints of a sinner’s repentence, why would that make you think they could also hear that sinner’s intercessions?

Well, the passage doesn’t indicate that the saints can hear specific requests for intercession, it also doesn’t say they can’t. And while I’m not yet convinced they can, it seems it could be inferred that if they are aware enough of one sinner’s repentance, they might could be aware of his/her request for intercession, too.
You might be right that this is referring to the Angels, but Christ doesn’t specifically say angels, He simply says rejoicing in Heaven. On could, again, infer all the company in Heaven.

Jon

Jon

 

[Bookworm88]

But that’s not my point. My point is that we claim the saints who are with God are used by God to accomplish His will - that His will is that we should pray for each other to build up the Body of Christ in charity and community.

I suppose I could even go along with the idea that the saints up in heaven are talking to God and asking Him to help us out, BUT their ability to pray for us does not automatically give them an ability to hear US when WE say something in our heads. That’s the sticky point here.

It is not a claim that the saints in Heaven have a Godlike ability of their own, that they somehow merited or obtained for themselves because of their very nature.

But it IS a claim that they have the ability somehow, whether it is through their very nature or whether the ability has been given to them by God. My sticking point is that it seems that knowing the minds of men IS somthing that is described as belonging to God alone, Just because we are part of the body of Christ does NOT mean that we can read each other’s thoughts. I don’t see the reasoning behind why you think that would change when saints get to heaven.

You are looking at the issue upside down and backwards.

From where I am looking, you are the one seeing it upside down and backwards, lol.

Just as God uses those who call themselves Christian in this world to do His work, God uses those in Heaven for His work as well.

Well, let’s run with that idea. We have specific Bible verses telling us things that the angels are doing as part of God’s work, and we have pictures of saints worshipping in God’s throneroom. We have the idea of heaven being a place of rest for God’s people. I’m not really seeing where you get the idea that saints in heaven have a “work” to do up there. I know your response will probably be “The Bible doesn’t say they don’t,” but to me that is like a cop-out. The Bible doesn’t say that the saints participate in rodeos up in heaven, so should we assume that they do just because the Bible doesn’t tell us that they don’t? You could claim the saints could do practically anything with that kind of logic. Besides, God specifically tells us that the angels are God’s ministering spirits to us here on earth, Why would you try to claim that other spirits are minstering spirits when God tells us which ones ARE?

But I’m not in Heaven enjoying the beatific vision. God graces me with different gifts that I am called to employ for His glory.

What is the “beautific vision”? I know ALL of us are graced with various gifts, but getting a specific kind of “beautific vision” that allows one to read the minds of men goes beyond the descriptions we have of people in heaven.

just as not all persons in Heaven are recognized in the canon of saints from whom the Church seeks intercessory prayer.

Okay, you bring up something I need clarified. Is it just the canonized saints that can hear prayers, or is it all saints?

If your logic is sound, then faith healers must be worshipped as divine - because they manifest the ability to heal miraculously.

Ah, but God SAID He would give the gift of healing to certain individuals, so I can go along with a healing ability being given to people even though it is God-like. Your illustration goes right along with my point. I have no problem with God-like abilities being ascribed to man if we can see in Scripture that God gives them. Why, even being able to stand in the presence of a holy God would take an ability that us humans do not have without it being given by God. My stumbling block is when the Scriptures DON’T say a word about the ability being given, and the Catholics somehow believing that the saints have it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Repeating from the first page…

Truly the Saints know what is going on.

Revelation aka Apocalypse says that ‘The Saints will judge nations’.
How does one judge if one does not know what is going on?

And we will be ‘like God’ in Heaven. Which means surely we can hear those calling our names.
And being a Heavenly being - our love for those still on earth doesn’t just disappear.
…but grows.

Peace

 

[Bookworm88]

Repeating from the first page…

WarriorAngel,
Do you have a verse that you are refering to that says, “The saints shall judge nations”? I want to look at the surrounding context of the particular passage you speak of before I respond. If it refers to what is called the Millenium, then I believe the saints will be able to come down to earth and interact on a personal basis with the nations that exist on earth during that 1000 years, and thus they would have face to face knowledge of what to judge. They wouldn’t need to get some knowledge from reading people’s thoughts.

 

[Thing]

BW88:

Originally Posted by Robert in SD
But that’s not my point. My point is that we claim the saints who are with God are used by God to accomplish His will - that His will is that we should pray for each other to build up the Body of Christ in charity and community.

I suppose I could even go along with the idea that the saints up in heaven are talking to God and asking Him to help us out, BUT their ability to pray for us does not automatically give them an ability to hear US when WE say something in our heads. That’s the sticky point here.

Consider a nested system like this;

GOD

SAINTS

GOD

The Saints live in God and God lives in the Saints. Which we know.

You pray to God and He may or may not wish the Saints to hear, you say. But the Saints live in God and God lives in the Saints, so that the Saints’ will is Gods’ will and Gods’ will is the Saints’ will. So it pleases God that the Saints can know what God knows.

You pray to God, and the Saints hear, the prayer goes through God, the Saints live in God.

God allows the Saints to hear your prayers.
You pray to the Saints and God hears and so the Saints hear also.
God always hears your prayers.

Simple

 

[Bookworm88]

Consider a nested system like this;



The Saints live in God and God lives in the Saints. Which we know.

You pray to God and He may or may not wish the Saints to hear, you say. But the Saints live in God and God lives in the Saints, so that the Saints’ will is Gods’ will and Gods’ will is the Saints’ will. So it pleases God that the Saints can know what God knows.

You pray to God, and the Saints hear, the prayer goes through God, the Saints live in God.

God allows the Saints to hear your prayers.
You pray to the Saints and God hears and so the Saints hear also.
God always hears your prayers.

Simple

So are you saying that all the Saints up in heaven are onmiscient in the same way that God is omniscient?

 

[Lapulapu]

So are you saying that all the Saints up in heaven are onmiscient in the same way that God is omniscient?

But if God would give the saints the power of being omniscient, there’s nothing impossible in God, would you agree to that?

 

[Joero]

But if God would give the saints the power of being omniscient, there’s nothing impossible in God, would you agree to that?

I think he will not agreee to that because he thinks that it is not in scripture! Am I not right, Bookworm88?

 

[Bookworm88]

But if God would give the saints the power of being omniscient, there’s nothing impossible in God, would you agree to that?

No, I do NOT agree that nothing is impossible to God. The Bible says it is impossible for God to lie, so something IS impossible for God. Things that are outside the nature of God are impossible for God. Is it within the nature of God to give other beings supernatural powers equal to His own? I don’t see that it would be, but since Catholics seem to think that it is, then it is no wonder that non-catholics have a problem with prayers to Mary and the saints. After all, you are praying to beings with powers equal to God’s. It’s no wonder we consider that “worship,” no matter what other words you come up with to describe it.

Oh, and Joero’s comment about it not being scriptural is a good point as well.

 

[simplynoone]

Says you and your own private interpretations of scripture.

As opposed to what? The Pope’s interpretations for you? Why is it that you all can believe that Mary ascended based on the word of a man that isn’t even in the Bible and I am basing what it is that I buy into ON the Scriptures and it is MY interpretation? This is God’s interpretation that I buy into. You all just do not like it because you worship a man and not God. This is a fact.

Mary died… this is a fact. Peter died. and ya know what? Jesus died. He was a man… there is nothing to say anything in the SCRIPTURES (that being the Tanakh) about being rescued off this earth and so you best make it worth your time while you are here…

Dude. The Kingdom of God is at hand.

I would prefer it if you called me “ma’am” rather than dude. And duuuuuh! This is the point. So, start LIVING like it actually is because you are right… it is!! He is the Creator of Life and He, God, does not exist in death.

Everlasting life begins today.

And yet you have no clue because you listen to those who have made a covenant with death. Isaiah 28.

Yay, though he were dead, yet shall he live.

The only way you will live is to actually LIVE!!!

Absent from the body, ALIVE with Christ!!!

And you know this…
…
…

…

…

HOW?

You know not what you speak of.

hmmmm… shall I pull back up the signature that I had a while back… something written by one of your past leaders? Something regarding a proven false statement being the equivelent to Mary being a virgin and yet having given birth to Jesus.

I speak from the Scriptures and not by what I am told to say by man. I know exactly what it is I speak from. Your statement is merely wishful thinking.

May the Lord open your eyes.

Every single day of the life I am LIVING, my friend. You all can not handle it and thus… back to bed for you little children.

 

[simplynoone]

Simplynoone,

This is exactly what you are doing. You are trusting in man, and in whoever told you that Catholics practice necromancy.

Here is what the scriptures you shared mean:

From the catechism:

(How we explain our faith)

Please read it carefully, and let us know what you disagree with.
Asking the Communion of Saints to pray for us is okay.

Necromancy is a sin against the First Commandment and is to be rejected according to the Catholic Church.

***THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3***

---

It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."***

2 times is faith mentioned in the Tanakh… as compared to the OVER 240 times that KNOWLEDGE is mentioned. Two… one of those TWO times that faith is mentioned it translates from the Hebrew text as faithfulness and the ONLY other time it is mentioned is in Habakkuk 2… which is a book that was not to be opened up until the end. If you would please note that Habakkuk 2 IS NOT praising the “just” that “shall live by HIS faith” but rather is warning that those living by his faith… well, their soul in them is not upright. Read on to… the warning only gets more detailed. ahem … Paul! 2 Timothy 2:8 (note the 2nd to the last word, please). HOLY FLIPPIN’ COWS!! in the next verse he even ADMITS to being an evildoer. Can’t get any more blunt than this.

The FIRST COMMANDMENT: Thou shalt have NO OTHER gods before me. Hosea 11:9 and Numbers 23:19… ahem again Jesus coughs MAN!! coughs louder god before HIM! ahem … breaking… of… first… commandment.

 

[Lapulapu]

Is it within the nature of God to give other beings supernatural powers equal to His own? I don’t see that it would be, but since Catholics seem to think that it is, then it is no wonder that non-catholics have a problem with prayers to Mary and the saints. After all, you are praying to beings with powers equal to God’s. It’s no wonder we consider that “worship,” no matter what other words you come up with to describe it.

God can share His power if He wants to human beings, but to what extent, we don’t know, whether it would be like as if God has chosen not to be God by giving all the power He has to humans, which I think the church never teach such a thing but says that God can share what He has.

How would you interpret then by your own this particular passage of St. Paul in Galatians 4: 7 (…And since you are His child, God will give you all that He has for His children)

 

[ufamtobie]

I guess I just have a hard time seeing the distinction between praying

to someone who is no longer living and asking for something of someone who is no longer living. Well, sure, the saints are living with God, but does that actually give them the ability to hear us? I know Biblically that God can always hear me, whether I speak out loud or say something in my mind, but can a saint hear me if I just say something in my mind? How does a saint have that ability? Is it in the Scriptures that saints have that ability? It seems to me that Catholics are assigning God-like abilities to saints if they say that saints can hear their requests, and it just seems like a nit-picky semantic difference to say that making such a requst is not actually praying, when you are making it to someone who has a God-like ability. At least that is why I see it as a stumblingblock, anyway. I don’t know if that is how others see it.

Bookworm,

You say a stumbling block, I guess you have not read Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.

Bookworm, Luke: 16: 22-26 above proves you are wrong and proves Catholic teaching once again is correct. Abraham who resides in heaven and the Rich Man who resides in hell PRAYS, PRAYS PRAYS, to Abraham to dip his finger in water to refresh his tongue.

Bookworm, You see one can go to the saints in heaven such as Abraham, or Virgin Mary and pray to them for help and they can HEAR US as Abraham heard the richman in hell. Even the souls in hell know that one can pray to any saint in heaven, now this should tell you something.

Again, if a soul in hell can pray to a saint in heaven WHY CAN’T WE!?

27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, 28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

BookWorm, Now did God hear the richman in hell through Abraham? Well, there was a man by the name of LAZARUS who was raised from the dead, FOOD FOR THOUGHT

Pray to Abraham the scripture above states he can here the man in hell that also means Abraham can hear your prayer as well.

Ufamtobie

 

[Joero]

God can share His power if He wants to human beings, but to what extent, we don’t know, whether it would be like as if God has chosen not to be God by giving all the power He has to humans, which I think the church never teach such a thing but says that God can share what He has.

How would you interpret then by your own this particular passage of St. Paul in Galatians 4: 7 (…And since you are His child, God will give you all that He has for His children)

That’s a good point to ponder upon, Lapulapu, I have not seen that!

 

[ufamtobie]

So are you saying that all the Saints up in heaven are onmiscient in the same way that God is omniscient?

Bookworm,

Did not Jesus Christ say in Matthew 17:20 "I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.

Mark 9:23 says everything is possible for him who believes.

The answer to your question above is: NO! THE SAINTS ARE NOT OMNISCIENT THE WAY GOD IS OMNISCIENT. GOD IS OMNISCIENT THROUGH HIS DIVINITY AND WE ARE OMNISCIENT THROUGH HIS GRACE! As the above bible verses state from the Jesus Christ’s own mouth, WITH FAITH IN GOD, I repeat! WITH FAITH IN GOD, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE, WITH FAITH AND BELIEF IN GOD to move mountains, trees ETC… again, Mark 9:23 EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE FOR HIM WHO BELIEVES EVEN TO BE ONMISCENT! THROUGH HIS GRACE. AMEN

Bookworm, if you don’t believe that we can’t be omniscient through God’s Grace then you are calling Jesus Christ a liar “EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE” Said Jesus Christ

Bookworm, the Saints in heaven have this grace of being omniscient for who believes more or who has more faith and who has a seed bigger than a mustard seed, who? I tell you the saints in heaven do!

We read in 1 Corinthians 2:9-10: "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Remember, God is Omnisicient through his Divinity And we Can Be through His Grace.

Ufamtobie