J
justasking4
Guest
Are you in favor of the proclaimation that Mary is the Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all grace and Advocate of humanity as the fifth official Marian dogma for Catholics?
- Status
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello justasking4,
Context is everything, to understand the meaning of the words in this song or any other “Catholic” song, one need to understand the Bible, the Church and traditions and Christian history.
You don’t recognize anything from the Bible in this song?
BTW, I have never heard this song, sung at any Catholic Mass, nor have I heard of it, then again, in the last two thousand years, many Catholics have written many, many songs.
I few lines from a song does not define Catholicism and a handful of Bible verses cannot and sould not define Christianity, to do so minimizes Christianity and the Bible.
Thank you for posting it here, though.
Catholics love Mary, the Mother of God.
Peace
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
First, please let me know what you believe the meanings of those titles are.
J
justasking4
Guest
Have you ever come across anything in any devotional literature on Mary that you thought went to far?
Have you heard of the 5th Marian dogma that is being studied and possibly to be proclaimed? If so, what do you think? Should it be done?
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
Based on the question being asked, and asked repeatedly, it is obvious there is an underlying opinion about this subject, so please explain what that is.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
No I haven’t.
J
justasking4
Guest
There are a number of catholics that i know who are uncomfortable with this for theological reasons and its not because its hard to explain either.
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
I didn’t ask about other Catholics, I asked you. This is the 3rd time. Are you going to explain your understanding of these terms and give your opinion?
Because otherwise, quite frankly, what you are doing could be construed as setting a rather uncharitable trap for someone. That wouldn’t be very Christian.
E
embertx3
Guest
It is not wrong to love Mary. Jesus is all flesh and blood of Mary. IMO it is like saying Mary, the flesh and blood died on the cross. Without her “yes” to God’s divine interventions where would we be? That would be another thread.
J
justasking4
Guest
What matters is not what i believe but what does the catholic church mean by them. What for example are we to believe by the term used of her as the “mediatrix of all graces”?
This is such a loaded theological claim its important to know what the catholic church means by it and if it squares with Scripture.
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
I guess the 3rd time was not the charm.
I recommend to Catholic readers that this question be avoided as a possible “set up”. There is no apparent interest on the part of this questioner in genuine discussion here, which is the purpose of this forum. Instead, this is obviously an effort to initiate a topic so that then an attack can ensue. It is counterproductive and very unChristian.
Back on topic, Jesus loved His Mother and gave Her to us on the cross. That we might lover Her is no mystery, it is not strange. That we may ask Her to pray for us is understandable, just as we might ask anyone for their prayers.
po18guy
Well-known member
Excellent! To which I would add only some interesting parallels from 2 Samuel and Luke:
Christ’s peace.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
C
ChristianKnight
Guest
I am lost again.
Do you pray to mary to pray for you, or with you?
Do you pray to mary to pray for you, or with you?
R
Ronald_E
Guest
As the Mother of God what Grace did she bring to the world?
It is not a theological claim, it is a mystery being contemplated. In contemplative prayer we seek the deeper Love of God and how it works in our faith and life. How does God’s Love move through our faith and how does it work in our faith and in the world?
More importantly how is God’s Love working through the Communion of Saints and if we can more deeply understand God’s Love through this spiritual connection we can then see more clearly how sin separates us from one another.
Sin is something that begins with a desire to be superior to another and Mary who is without sin had no such desire since she was full of grace.
What is your desire? Is it to know the working of Love and Grace or is it to create a roadblock to the contemplation of the Beautiful Mystery of the Mother of God?
C
coyotekate77
Guest
Both–whenever we pray to Mary, it always ‘goes’ directly to Jesus. For example, if I am praying the Hail Mary, what is the ‘core’ of the prayer? The blessedness of the fruit of Mary’s womb, Jesus–whom we name. The whole reason for Mary being ‘blessed’ was that she bore Jesus. The reason that we honor her is for being His Mother. The reason that we seek to speak with her in prayer is to better know her Son, Jesus.
As we speak ‘to’ Mary in anything we are speaking ‘with’ her. If I say, "Pray for us, holy mother of God, that we may be worthy of the promises of Christ’. . .that prayer, asking her to join in our prayers, she then ‘relates’ to Christ that prayer along with me. I beg that I may be worthy of Christ; she begs that I may be worthy of Christ. Christ is the core of all messages of prayer to Mary (and indeed to the saints). He is the alpha and omega.
G
guanophore
Guest
You have a good eye, MelanieAnne! ja4 is just trolling, as is his style. He has already made up his mind about all these things, and has already stated that his goal here is to pull Catholics away from their faith. Rather than using up more bandwidth, if you really want to know, I suggest a quick look at the dozens of threads where he has used the same old tired methods over and over. Use the “search” to find all the postings of justasking4, and you can save yourself a lot of time. here is a little sample:
"justasking4:
justasking:
ja4 is not here to learn about the Catholic faith. He believes all the Marian doctrines are false teachings, speculations, and traditions of men.
P
pismopal
Guest
You don’t have much room, it seems, in your heart. I recommend remodeling…good luck:shrug:
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
Wow Guanophore that is a very comprehensive most, leaving little room for doubt about the motivations of justasking4. Thank you!
This sort of thing will often catch my eye. I have never been the sort of “Bible is the inerrant Word of God” or “Once Saved Always Saved” type of Christian but I spent a good deal of my Christian life as a Protestant ~ an Episcopalian. I thought, back then, that I understood a lot about the Catholic church. I didn’t learn until later how wrong I was about that. Back then, I also thought I understood terms like “Co-Redemptrix”, but I have since learned that my previous understanding was inaccurate and incomplete.
Thanks to our RCIA program and some studying and contemplation on my own, I believe I have come to a better understanding of some of these concepts, but by no means am I as learned as some who post to this forum. It confounds me why so many persons who call themselves Christians seek to marginalize the Mother of God. To what purpose? And I sometimes wonder how such persons will account for their behavior when Jesus calls upon them to do so. How will they justify maligning His Mother? How will they justify ridiculing those who honor His Mother?
This sort of thing will often catch my eye. I have never been the sort of “Bible is the inerrant Word of God” or “Once Saved Always Saved” type of Christian but I spent a good deal of my Christian life as a Protestant ~ an Episcopalian. I thought, back then, that I understood a lot about the Catholic church. I didn’t learn until later how wrong I was about that. Back then, I also thought I understood terms like “Co-Redemptrix”, but I have since learned that my previous understanding was inaccurate and incomplete.
Thanks to our RCIA program and some studying and contemplation on my own, I believe I have come to a better understanding of some of these concepts, but by no means am I as learned as some who post to this forum. It confounds me why so many persons who call themselves Christians seek to marginalize the Mother of God. To what purpose? And I sometimes wonder how such persons will account for their behavior when Jesus calls upon them to do so. How will they justify maligning His Mother? How will they justify ridiculing those who honor His Mother?
N
NeedImprovement
Guest
Sorry CK. That’s twice now I’ve inadvertently confused you. Maybe this will make sense to you:
Mary’s job is to bring us to Jesus, that’s always the objective. If someone is bringing me somewhere, I’m with them - I can converse with them.
St. John Vianney -The Curé of Ars ( patron saint of all parish priests) said, " Prayer is a conversation with a friend." …notice the subtlety ? - He said **with a friend; not to a friend. The pray “with or to” is good for differentiating between prayer to God and prayer asking the saints to intercede with us. Because as soon as some non Catholic Christians hear we pray to **Mary, they automatically envision us bowing down before her in worship as if she were our Saviour. It isn’t like that.
Here’s another thing. We say that Jesus gave Mary as a Mother to all/each of us from the Cross…when He said, [John 19" 26-27]
while speaking both to Mary and the “beloved” disciple respectively, “Woman behold your son…”, then, “Son behold your mother…”.
Some ( I’m talking Catholics too) often miss the next part, the last sentence of John 19:27: “From that hour onward, the disciple took her into his care.”
I heard a really inspiring talk by a Sister Emmanuel on consecration to Mary and on actually,interiorly trying to take her home with us. You’d be surprised what happens when one does that. As Sister Emmanuel said, "Mary is a very practical Jewish Mother, so when you bring her into your home she may rearrange the furniture a bit or point out some things that are harmful to you.
As long as we are conversing, we’re praying. ( “To” or “with” only serve for purposes of differentiation).
- Status