Why is it wrong to love Mary, the Mother of God?

[Tantum_ergo]

I still feel the same. I have waded through the gobledegook replies of “I was only showing a different point to view,” to paraphrase FrJohn’s explanations of what he was trying to say. I don’t know if any others got PMs from him and Padrej. I didn’t understand what they were trying to say in them either. They were extremely terse; bordering on aggressive.
I was so bewildered by what I was reading that I took FrJohn’s early posts to Mass on Sunday and showed them to a very learned priest. He read through them very carefully and said, “What a load of rubbish!”
I’d rather trust one of my own priests (Franciscan) than someone who says they were trained as a priest at a Dominican seminary but doesn’t know how to put what the Church teaches into words.

I would love to be wrong but I don’t think I am.

My priests ARE Dominicans and they would find Fr. John’s posts unacceptable.

Heck, even the occasional Jesuit visitor would find them unacceptable!

I have to say that before I saw the “Dominican” and I had read Frs posts they actually looked like the old-school Jesuit style --you know, focus on the ‘similarities’, agree with the person and THEN once they have accepted you, start to work on pointing out the Catholic teaching. But even so, they really went ‘off the rails.’

Of course, we can all call ourselves what we will. I mean, Fr. could certainly be an authentic priest just as he claims. He could also be a 60 year old woman ‘priest’, a lay Catholic ‘dissenter’ trying to get ‘credibility’, a Protestant trying to play games, or even a non Christian out for who knows what.

I’ll judge (and I may do so legitimately) by both the Church itself . . .and by the ‘fruits’ of the teachings.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hmmmm…asked what parish he was in…

There is another thread on how it appears protestants use our Forum to promote their beliefs…a sort of passive aggressive form of evangelizing from the center of ‘the evil empire’…their take, of course, not ours…Star Wars…

It is quite puzzling…

 

[benidict]

Hmmmm…asked what parish he was in…

There is another thread on how it appears protestants use our Forum to promote their beliefs…a sort of passive aggressive form of evangelizing from the center of ‘the evil empire’…their take, of course, not ours…Star Wars…

It is quite puzzling…

good luck to them on that what thread is it? that would be interesting. peace

 

[Saintlucy]

When I shared with Fr John my training through my bishop, he said he was trying to broaden the perspective…but the Dominicans’ motto is ‘Veritatis’…and I also wonder where he has the time to be on here…guess in England it is different, but there are few priests in America who have time online…

I assure you, Kathleen, it is the same here. Our priests couldn’t find the time to be on the internet! Well, not in forums for hours on end.

 

[KathleenGee]

Benedict, the thread is on Protestants who come here to proselytize. It goes in and out…on topic.

Lucy…acknowledged…

 

[Jimmy_B]

When I shared with Fr John my training through my bishop, he said he was trying to broaden the perspective…but the Dominicans’ motto is ‘Veritatis’…and I also wonder where he has the time to be on here…guess in England it is different, but there are few priests in America who have time online…

"there are few priests in America who have time online"

This is an excellent point and I’ve wondered the same thing… I’ve asked priests about EWTN and Catholic Answers over the years and was told that they didn’t have enough time, with all of their responsibilities as a priest, to watch much TV or spend much, if any, time on the internet…**

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hmmmm…asked what parish he was in…

There is another thread on how it appears protestants use our Forum to promote their beliefs…a sort of passive aggressive form of evangelizing from the center of ‘the evil empire’…their take, of course, not ours…Star Wars…

It is quite puzzling…

 

[Cinette]

In this particular case I believe so.

I’d call it ‘contentment’….I’m not agonizing over doctrine/soul searching…as those described by Benedictus2 (excerpt in green of post below)….as I said….I’m already “home”.

Phil 4: 6 & 7
[6] Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.[7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

*When I came home to the Catholic Church I felt a great joy but one’s thirst is never quenched. It is like St Augustine “Our hearts were made for you O Lord and will not rest until they rest in three.” One of the things that happened to me when I returned to the Church was a desire for daily Mass although I was still pretty ignorant I must say.

Then my un-baptised atheist son was converted (Protestant - his wife saw to that!) and we witnessed an immense transformation in him - it was amazing. One of the things that happened to him was a tremendous attack from the devil. I myself had not given much thought to the devil but this occurrence was tremendously eye opening. My son is not the type to invent things and is very analytical. He said that he felt almost like a tug-of-war between the devil and the H Spirit. The Spirit won of course. But really the transformation was amazing. It was this that got me to look into the Catholic Charismatic Movement and I joined a group where I did a life transforming Life in the Spirit Seminar which was so satisfying and awakening. I then did about 9 more LIS over a period of years. I began to read and devour a lot of books. My son’s conversion also affected my M in law and my husband although my husband’s belief in God was influenced by a Jewish Scientist and this was also at the time when we experienced a number of little miracles (not that little actually).

So dear Leeann for me there is never contentment, there is great joy but the goal posts always seem to move a little further away making me search more and more and more and more and more… Perhaps what you call contentment is “certainty”. for me it just makes me hunger for more.

CAF has been a great source of information. EWTN has been tremendous. I tell you to see my husband today is a joy! I have always been crazy about him and we have always been very close but this has improved our relationship because we can share so much truth. It is wonderful.

So Leeann - don’t tell me you have had your thirst quenched because like St Augustine’s words “…and will not rest until they rest in three” (I am paraphrasing).

Cinette

P S Isn’t it amazing how we all affect one another. Our son, the scientist, the people at Mass, something someone says, a book we read and so on and on. It is very exciting. Our son is reading G K Chesterton and loves Pope Benedict!! Hmmmm… *

 

[Padrej]

"there are few priests in America who have time online"

This is an excellent point and I’ve wondered the same thing… I’ve asked priests about EWTN and Catholic Answers over the years and was told that they didn’t have enough time, with all of their responsibilities as a priest, to watch much TV or spend much, if any, time on the internet…**

This is going too far! You have gone after a man and keep saying a Priest would have NO TIME but how do the apologists who answer questions who are also priests have the time??? They must be false also by your reasoning. To a Protestant who was on the verge of converting, this looks bad if you attack ministers this way. I may as well become Methodist or some other branch of Protestantism where at least you know that the only attackers are in your own parish. Thank you for showing me how warm and welcoming Catholics can be to their own and to those who could ever want to convert. The last posts speaking of “I took this and…” “I know Franciscans who…” “Dominicans would not…” speak volumes to the condition of your hearts and I pray that each of you would come to cease this kind of personal attack and slander of a person. Those things if you choose to voice them should have been done in PM and not in open forum. Would you want God revealing your sins to all in open? Of course not but you have NO PROBLEM doing so about one of your own. Thank you for enlightening me as to the true nature of Catholicism.

 

[Padrej]

When I shared with Fr John my training through my bishop, he said he was trying to broaden the perspective…but the Dominicans’ motto is ‘Veritatis’…and I also wonder where he has the time to be on here…guess in England it is different, but there are few priests in America who have time online…

Funny I am an Anglican bishop running a diocese and a pastor of a church and yet I can still find some time to blog. I wonder how many of the priests in the “Ask the apologist” section of this forum would DARE be questioned with such when they answer questions of the faithful.

 

[Cinette]

hi cinette. in Father John defense, yes, i do believe he is really a Catholic Priest. i believe this whole thing was huge misunderstanding. and it is sad i have had some interesting corrospondance with him p.m. and i do not believe he is anything other than what he claims to be. i bet if we could all sit down for a cup of coffee, face to face the outcome would be different. its hard sometimes with the internet and “post” to sometimes grasp context. nothing against benidictus. Love his/her defense of the faith. Peace to all. :grouphug:

*Priests are human and make mistakes but need to acknowledge their mistakes with humility. Benedictus made a compelling case.

I attend two Parishes - one during the week and one on Sundays. My weekly Parish Priest is now 80, has a great sense of humour and often says really deep and wonderful things. However he did something which upset me very much. I have a daughter with 4 children, married to an atheist (my daughter was never baptised!! my fault I was away from the Church at the time!) I used to take the two older children to Mass on Sundays (before the other two were born) and then my s in law stopped this practice and I had a reaction. He and my daughter went to the Priest and asked him to speak to me because they wanted me to stop taking the children to Mass and never speak to them about Jesus!!! My daughter later told me that she was not impressed with the Priest…but never say why. I now found out (4 years later from my other daughter) that he referred to me as being a “radical”!!! Just because I go to daily Mass…?? Fr must be a radical also!!! But you see he should have kept his mouth shut because that word turned my daughter against him. She may not be Christian but she does not like anyone to refer to me as “radical” because she knows that is not true. But the Priest did damage…with just one word he alienated my daughter.

Priests have a great responsibility and must teach truth always. Today we have the “priesthood of the laity” better informed than ever before so priests have to keep on their toes. Benedictus was not the only Catholic on the thread who picked up on Fr John’s errors.

Love to all
Cinette*

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This is going too far! You have gone after a man and keep saying a Priest would have NO TIME but how do the apologists who answer questions who are also priests have the time??? They must be false also by your reasoning. To a Protestant who was on the verge of converting, this looks bad if you attack ministers this way. I may as well become Methodist or some other branch of Protestantism where at least you know that the only attackers are in your own parish. Thank you for showing me how warm and welcoming Catholics can be to their own and to those who could ever want to convert. The last posts speaking of “I took this and…” “I know Franciscans who…” “Dominicans would not…” speak volumes to the condition of your hearts and I pray that each of you would come to cease this kind of personal attack and slander of a person. Those things if you choose to voice them should have been done in PM and not in open forum. Would you want God revealing your sins to all in open? Of course not but you have NO PROBLEM doing so about one of your own. Thank you for enlightening me as to the true nature of Catholicism.

Whoa. Hold hard there, sugar.

It is as silly for you to complain that **posters on a message board are preventing you from becoming Catholic because as such they reveal the ‘true nature of Catholicism’ (and obviously we are terrible, TERRIBLE people and therefore Catholicism is a terrible, TERRIBLE thing. . .) **

as it would be for us Catholics to take the remarks of a few PROTESTANTS on a message board and to complain about how they 'reveal the true nature of PROTESTANTISM–and obviously they are terrible, terrible people and therefore PROTESTANTISM is a terrible, terrible thing.

**OK? Get it? I’m sure as a Protestant you would be the first to ask us to consider, not an individual, but the actual doctrine and its truth, in making a decision about faith. **

This is a FORUM. People give their OPINIONS. (Look carefully again at my post where I specifically say that it is entirely possible that Fr. J is exactly who he claims to be. )

I’m sure that it reflects well on how ‘empathetic’ you are to Fr. J whom you obviously admire. . .but it surely doesn’t show much empathy to those of us you are now blasting and attempting to ‘guilt’, and as Fr. Z (a priest who blogs whom I read EVERY DAY) says coming close to"Throwing a nutty."

Instead of playing the game of “you people have turned me off from Catholicism through your mean old posts”, why not calmly and rationally speak about the things that people have found "problematic’ with Fr. J (which you have no problem with) and ask more about the **particular things and where you might find authentic and authoritative teaching from Catholic ‘authorities’ as opposed to us dumb old anonymous posters? **

Instead of throwing GASOLINE on troubled waters, you could try addressing the teachings instead of attacking posters. . .particularly since you came on with guns blazing because you were upset at the perceived attack on another poster.

**So it’s ok to “blast” so long as YOU do the blasting? **

I think not.

I don’t know the time frame on your end but it is getting late here and I have had a Long and tiresome week.

If there is anything in this post that is ‘against’ Catholic doctrine or if I have in any way, shape or form ‘flouted’ Catholic teaching, well, that is because I am ‘imperfect’. Not because Catholicism is lacking. And if I have failed in charity, it is not because I’m a nasty old Catholic, but rather that I’m a nasty old woman who happens to be Catholic and, as I so often do, fell short. . .

So tell me (kindly please, so as to give good example), and let me once more ‘strive’ to be a better Catholic.

And God bless us, every one.

 

[Padrej]

I may be wrong but I doubt that Benedict got your excuses as well. He is just a very respectful person and he is keeping silent in deference to you.

Padrej would get your point. He’s protestant.

I get his point NOT because I am Protestant, but because I study the faith and have taken a Catholic apologetics course. Maybe, just maybe, I could say by the fruits of what has been posted Benedict is acting as a Christian should and also following the forum rules especially in the area of treatment of clergy. Do you not believe that Mary intercedes for priests? ( I have always heard she is the mother of them all) Maybe if as much time was spent praying for intercession and enlightenment as there was attacking a member of the clergy this would be a more productive thread. The man apologized for the confusion and my question is why would anyone in their right mind want to continue with all the going back and forth as been going on. That to me is only adding more to the confusion. I was always taught growing up that when a finger of blame or accusation is pointed at others (the way that is being done to FrJohn) that three more fingers point back where the real problem is.

Why would you be mad having it pointed out that the Catholic church takes quite a bit on tradition? This is backed by the faith section of the CAF. This is backed by the Catholic encyclopedia. So why would Fr John pointing this out seem to bring a house of cards down? Last I checked the catholic church is STILL standing and it is not a house of cards. The Anglican faith takes quite a few things on tradition too and many Catholics attack us for doing the same thing. Seems quite the double standard.

 

[benidict]

first off, i love every one of you who has been posting on this topic. i really do. i am trained to engage, close with and destroy an enemy. and believe me, i have no problem doing so. however. i would never turn my training or my intensity on my own colors.(ok, maybe when we do boxing. then i try to kick my friends butt.) but seriously. im lookin at this, and if im not mistaken, other than Padre j, i think the other protestants have either left, or they are looking at this and laughing. although i really dont consider Padre j, a protestant. i have a very short time with you folks, i love and value all your opinions. but hopefully, i do not leave with a war going on between members of the clergy, and the flock. i understand the arguments. i still think its been a big misunderstanding. but lets remember, that Father John has been place as a shepherd. to lead us. i am well aware that many of you, have vast amounts of knowledge in the faith, and i thank God for that. its been wonderful reading all your post and learning from you. and i would back anyone of you up. but we really need to step back, take a deep breath, and think. would Jesus or Mary want to see this going on? it goes deeper than whos right or wrong. peace and love to all of us.

 

[KathleenGee]

There were comments that I thought I had misread about the subject’s remarks on Mary…I thought I was missing something in his remarks…Some people weren’t clear as well and took them to their priests who confirmed that our observations were not faulty.

If we are Catholic, irregardless of our rank, we are to promote authentic Catholic teaching…there are people who come on to CAF a number of times who are not clear of who they are. Sometimes there are those who rehash over and over the same points with different people, and the people repeating over and over our Catholic beliefs…then they come back and say what we are sharing here is not true.

It is our duty as Catholics to promote the truth of our religion. I have no intention of harming others. I am the one who made the comment about spending time on the internet…I know of some Dominican priests who are theologians and do the same…but I questioned him because what he appeared to be saying is not the correct beliefs of Mary.

I have never heard a priest teach that Mary was not sinless or not perpetual virgin. Again, some others took his remarks to other priests to read and they debunked his comments. I know priests who have had opinions in the past who were incorrect, and prayed for them; we pray for the clergy all the time.

 

[prodigalson12]

I get his point NOT because I am Protestant, but because I study the faith and have taken a Catholic apologetics course. Maybe, just maybe, I could say by the fruits of what has been posted Benedict is acting as a Christian should and also following the forum rules especially in the area of treatment of clergy. Do you not believe that Mary intercedes for priests? ( I have always heard she is the mother of them all) Maybe if as much time was spent praying for intercession and enlightenment as there was attacking a member of the clergy this would be a more productive thread. The man apologized for the confusion and my question is why would anyone in their right mind want to continue with all the going back and forth as been going on. That to me is only adding more to the confusion. I was always taught growing up that when a finger of blame or accusation is pointed at others (the way that is being done to FrJohn) that three more fingers point back where the real problem is.

Why would you be mad having it pointed out that the Catholic church takes quite a bit on tradition? This is backed by the faith section of the CAF. This is backed by the Catholic encyclopedia. So why would Fr John pointing this out seem to bring a house of cards down? Last I checked the catholic church is STILL standing and it is not a house of cards. The Anglican faith takes quite a few things on tradition too and many Catholics attack us for doing the same thing. Seems quite the double standard.

1st Mary is “all” of our mother, including believers and non believers alike, Mary was never someone exclusive to the Catholic church.

The dynamic between the Catholic and Protestant faith is huge when it comes to leadership. In the protestant church, you dare not question the leaders of it, even if they are leading you to hell itself, it’s taboo to speak up, instead you split and form your own church, in this one, we don’t split, we confront everything if it needs to be addressed. There are direct ways of doing it, such as how this dialog is going on with the board, or there are indirect ways such as complaining to their superiors. Personally, I’d rather hash it out with the clergy directly rather then go over their heads. A protestant leader can embrace what ever they want, they can pick and choose what to believe, and not believe, like a buffet, we dont’ operate that way, this is why we have the fullness, and the moment things tend to start to lean towards a protestantism element, there is a problem that must be addressed in full before it gets out of hand.

Right now, there are many abuses that go on, it’s getting worse as time goes on, better as we speak up, depends upon who of knowledge is placed where, and how much they can endure, leading through example and speaking up. Why we have these are historic, and stem back to the early church, it’s the nature of man, in other manners, it’s the nature of our modern society and too often there are secular mindsets that have been adopted by clergy.

Have you seen the end results of both sided, one in check, one unchecked, and see the fruits that are born therin? On the protestant side, we have so many mega churches, prosperity gospel driven, an embarrassment to the faith, and they are sweeping the world. We have on the other end, still the same Catholic church, it has not split, changed, or warped, the same message being delivered now as was from day one.

The thing you need to grasp here, the Catholic church is not comprised of a series of human beings lined up, this is as completely different from the Protestant faith, an empty protestant church has no power, an empty Catholic church does, to put it in very simple, basic terms stripped to the core to help you understand what I mean here. If I was dependent upon the people and their actions weather to stay in the faith or not, I’d surely have left for good long ago and would never in a million years return. This church is what Christ created, the protestant church is what man created, the two are entirely different and separate from each other, and don’t confuse this with the individuals that attend, a believer is a believer.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Being the crusty old bat of nearly 54 that I am, I sat through, in the 1990s, many a sermon on the ‘miracle of sharing’ that Jesus ‘supervised’ through getting the people to ‘share what they had’ (of COURSE He couldn’t possibly have made 5 loaves and 2 fish feed 5000 people, that would have been so out of character for a simple humble man ya know?)

Now when that gospel comes around, usually the first thing our priests do is say, "I know you’re all waiting to hear about the miracle of how Jesus softened the hearts of people and got them to ‘share’ their food. Well, you’re going to have a long wait because that never happened. What really happened was a total miracle where Jesus took 5 loaves and 2 fish and was able to feed an entire crowd with just that–just as He today can feed the world with His body and blood. It was a foreshadowing. Now, that other story was a popular kind of idea that went well with society’s ‘cocooning’ of the 1990s, a kind of ‘we-the-community-will-share’ idea that went so far out of focus in thinking of Jesus as the "man who gives good example’ that it IGNORED the fact that Jesus is not just ‘the man’ but GOD.’

Why do I bring this up? To show that nice, good, average Catholic priests are like the rest of us. They bring in their ‘point of view’. As my pastor says (often), One must always remember that Jesus is God and man. And any time that we focus more on one OR the other, we will veer into heresy. Teaching about Jesus and neglecting any ‘miraculous’ deeds or teachings (as dear old TJ did) is focusing only on the MAN and not the GOD. . .and veers into heresy. Teaching about Jesus and focusing only the miraculous, like the many atheists who sneer, “So He died on the cross, big deal, He KNEW He was gonna come to life again, He’s not really like us at all” are focusing on the GOD and neglecting the MAN and obviously veering into heresy.

So Fr. J in speaking of Mary might be working from absolutely good and authentic teachings but ‘veering’ into a point of view that focuses a little too much in ‘one’ way and thus throws the teachings off and is in error.

Because so much of the ‘base’ of the teachings is true, it is harder to see the error. I mean, in the story of the loaves and fishes, we can see that the whole thing is ‘right there’. There is the crowd, there is Jesus, there He is breaking the food, and there the people are, well fed.

It is not explictly stated, "and to each man of the 5000 Jesus gave a piece from the very same loaf and/or fish’. And knowing that people might have some dried food ‘tucked away’ (as was common for us ‘bright’ people in the 1990s) and being inclined to try to make people ‘work together’, some bright boys theorized the ‘sharing’, probably first as a simple, “Yes, Jesus gave everybody just enough to satisfy, and then along with that people probably shared out some stuff and that’s why we got ‘leftovers’. . .” and then of course, the ‘anti-miracle’ crowd probably thought, “Hey, that would work with OUR program too, yay” and the "horizontal community worshippers’ were like, "Well of COURSE because after all it’s all about being FED and being “Church”. . .

Ah, the 90s. How we ever got out of the 20th century. . . .

So we don’t want to have the same problems with skewed theories about MARY as we did with the great ‘miracle of sharing’ that is STILL causing repercussions today.

And so we’ll do a Barney Fife and ‘nip it in the bud’ when possible!!!

 

[Cinette]

This is going too far! You have gone after a man and keep saying a Priest would have NO TIME but how do the apologists who answer questions who are also priests have the time??? They must be false also by your reasoning. To a Protestant who was on the verge of converting, this looks bad if you attack ministers this way. I may as well become Methodist or some other branch of Protestantism where at least you know that the only attackers are in your own parish. Thank you for showing me how warm and welcoming Catholics can be to their own and to those who could ever want to convert. The last posts speaking of “I took this and…” “I know Franciscans who…” “Dominicans would not…” speak volumes to the condition of your hearts and I pray that each of you would come to cease this kind of personal attack and slander of a person. Those things if you choose to voice them should have been done in PM and not in open forum. Would you want God revealing your sins to all in open? Of course not but you have NO PROBLEM doing so about one of your own. Thank you for enlightening me as to the true nature of Catholicism.

*As I see it this is a forum where one can participate anonymously so we can point out error without offending because “Fr John” is not exposed in anyway. What Benedictus was doing was pointing out errors of Fr John. Just because he is a priest doesn’t make him infallible but when he misrepresents the Church it is our duty to say “Hey wait a minute there” So you are wrong to say that Fr John was “attacked”. The truth must be preserved and Fr John, if he is indeed a priest, knows that very well. What he said was wrong.

"personal attack? slander? Oh Padrej you are not really thinking. You are not analysing the situation here.

I ask you a question : How does the exchange between Fr John and other lay Catholics on the thread constitute a personal attack or even damage his reputation? We are all anonymous here.

Let me tell you I don’t care who the person is but if he does not teach the truth the right thing to do is to point it out…charitably …and there is no need to go “underground”.

Cinette*

 

[Padrej]

Whoa. Hold hard there, sugar.

I

t is as silly for you to complain that **posters on a message board are preventing you from becoming Catholic because as such they reveal the ‘true nature of Catholicism’ (and obviously we are terrible, TERRIBLE people and therefore Catholicism is a terrible, TERRIBLE thing. . .) **

 

[Padrej]

1st Mary is “all” of our mother, including believers and non believers alike, Mary was never someone exclusive to the Catholic church.

The dynamic between the Catholic and Protestant faith is huge when it comes to leadership. In the protestant church, you dare not question the leaders of it, even if they are leading you to hell itself, it’s taboo to speak up, instead you split and form your own church, in this one, we don’t split, we confront everything if it needs to be addressed. There are direct ways of doing it, such as how this dialog is going on with the board, or there are indirect ways such as complaining to their superiors. Personally, I’d rather hash it out with the clergy directly rather then go over their heads. A protestant leader can embrace what ever they want, they can pick and choose what to believe, and not believe, like a buffet, we dont’ operate that way, this is why we have the fullness, and the moment things tend to start to lean towards a protestantism element, there is a problem that must be addressed in full before it gets out of hand.

Right now, there are many abuses that go on, it’s getting worse as time goes on, better as we speak up, depends upon who of knowledge is placed where, and how much they can endure, leading through example and speaking up. Why we have these are historic, and stem back to the early church, it’s the nature of man, in other manners, it’s the nature of our modern society and too often there are secular mindsets that have been adopted by clergy.

Have you seen the end results of both sided, one in check, one unchecked, and see the fruits that are born therin? On the protestant side, we have so many mega churches, prosperity gospel driven, an embarrassment to the faith, and they are sweeping the world. We have on the other end, still the same Catholic church, it has not split, changed, or warped, the same message being delivered now as was from day one.

The thing you need to grasp here, the Catholic church is not comprised of a series of human beings lined up, this is as completely different from the Protestant faith, an empty protestant church has no power, an empty Catholic church does, to put it in very simple, basic terms stripped to the core to help you understand what I mean here. If I was dependent upon the people and their actions weather to stay in the faith or not, I’d surely have left for good long ago and would never in a million years return. This church is what Christ created, the protestant church is what man created, the two are entirely different and separate from each other, and don’t confuse this with the individuals that attend, a believer is a believer.

I think you do not know the Protestant religion as a whole very well. Some of us it is taboo to question our leaders while with most it IS NOT and believe me as a bishop I see plenty of it.