Why is it wrong to love Mary, the Mother of God?

[Tantum_ergo]

Where in scripture does that say? Okay, yes, as a faithful Jew he certainly did so - but the is no prove from scripture actually.
By the way at the marriage in canaaan Jesus was quite “rude” to her:

John 2:4

**Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. **

there are also other examples that he didn’t always honor her, like when He said as a twelve year old:
"48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business? (Luke 2:46+47)

I mean imagine that: A twelve year old ran away, sort of, from his parents and then even asked them WHY they searched him. Is this really perfect honoring of father and mother?

Esdra

Whoa. So you’re saying that GOD ALMIGHTY was ‘rude’ to His mother, eh?

So much for the idea of God being perfectly just. How can you claim that Jesus was ‘rude’ and to His MOTHER, and at the same time accept that as something worthy of God? Where else in Scripture is God shown to be ‘rude’ to even His people? He is never ‘rude’. And where is Mary’s ‘sin’ which would require God to ‘rebuke’ her?

Do you not KNOW that the title of ‘woman’ is not at all disrespectful? Christ is here equating His mother Mary with the other ‘woman’ of Scripture. . .Eve. Christ as we know is the new Adam. What does that make Mary if she is given the same respect and title by God as Eve had before her fall?

 

[Cinette]

I may be wrong but I doubt that Benedict got your excuses as well. He is just a very respectful person and he is keeping silent in deference to you.

Padrej would get your point. He’s protestant.

*I am sure I speak for all Catholics on this thread when I say thank you Benedictus for your excellent exposition.

I am sure you do not feel victorious but rather, very sad indeed. A Catholic priest should be catechised well enough to be able to instruct Catholics properly and fully. This is regrettable.

The question remains : Is Fr John really a Catholic priest?

Cinette
*

 

[Church_Militant]

You know what? I HAVE STUDIED History for a year in University. Just to consider.
And I have studied the Holy Bible since I am 16 years old (8 years so far!)
And by studying the Holy Bible I found out that it must be like I said: The Ancient Christians WERE NOT CATHOLIC. For sure not!

esdra

Really? That’s very odd then becuse the earliest of the church fathers, who were discipled directly by the apostle St. John prove by their writings that they are indeed Catholic.

St. Ignatius gave his life for the faith he held when he was thrown to wild animals.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

CHAP. VII.–LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death(11) in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,(13) that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of(15) them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.(16) But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils. … It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and neither in private nor in public to talk with(15) them; but to give heed to the law, and the prophets, and to those who have preached to you the word of salvation. But flee from all abominable heresies, and those that cause schisms, as the beginning of evils.

CHAP. VIII.–LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.(2) even as where Christ is, there does all the heavenly host stand by, waiting upon Him as the Chief Captain of the Lord’s might, and the Governor of every intelligent nature. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love-feast.(1) But that which seems good to him, is also well-pleasing to God, that everything ye do may be secure and valid.

The of course there is St. Polycarp who was also a disciple of St. John and whose trial for being a believer give us further insight because he states that he was baptized as an infant. The Martyrdom of Polycarp

** CHAP. IX.–POLYCARP REFUSES TO REVILE CHRIST. **
Now, as Polycarp was entering into the stadium, there came to him a voice from heaven, saying, “Be strong, and show thyself a man, O Polycarp !” No one saw who it was that spoke to him; but those of our brethren who were present heard the voice. And as he was brought forward, the tumult became great when they heard that Polycarp was taken. And when he came near, the proconsul asked him whether he was Polycarp. On his confessing that he was, [the proconsul] sought to persuade him to deny [Christ], saying, “Have respect to thy old age,” and other similar things, according to their custom, [such as]," Swear by the fortune of Caesar; repent, and say, Away with the Atheists." But Polycarp, gazing with a stern countenance on all the multitude of the wicked heathen then in the stadium, and waving his hand towards them, while with groans he looked up to heaven, said, “Away with the Atheists.”(5) Then, the proconsul urging him, and saying, “Swear, and I will set thee at liberty, reproach Christ;” Polycarp declared, “Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me any injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and my Saviour?”

It appears that your Christian history education was somewhat deficient.

 

[benedictus2]

You know what? I HAVE STUDIED History for a year in University. Just to consider.
And I have studied the Holy Bible since I am 16 years old (8 years so far!)

That is wonderful.

And by studying the Holy Bible I found out that it must be like I said: The Ancient Christians WERE NOT CATHOLIC. For sure not!

Actually that is where you are very wrong. I will dump here a short timeline of the history of the Catholic Church from this website
davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_catholic_church.htm

A Timeline of Catholic Church history
1-500 A.D.
AD Event 20s *c. 29 AD Our Lord’s Resurrection. The First Pentecost. St. Peter preaches in Jerusalem and converts three thousand people, creating the first Christian community.
30s *c. 35 Saul of Tarsus has an apparition of Jesus Christ and is converted to Christianity. *c.
39 St. Peter baptizes Cornelius. This event marks the beginning of the missionizing to the Gentiles.
40s *42 The first persecution of Christians in Jerusalem under Herod Agrippa. Many Christians escape to Antioch, establishing its first community.
*44 Martyrdom of St. James the Great, brother of the Apostle John. He is the first apostle to die for the faith. He was sentenced by Herod Agrippa in 44 AD. Today he is honored at the shrine of Santiago Compostela.
50s *c. 51 The Council of Jerusalem. It rules that Gentile converts do not have to observe the Moasaic Law.
60s *62 Martyrdom of St James the Less, Bishop of Jerusalem. He is stoned to death. *64 First persecution of the Christians by Nero, who blames them for setting a fire that burned much of Rome. Christianity soon after becomes a capital crime.
*66 Jews revolt against Roman authority. The Christians, remembering the prophecies of Christ, leave Jerusalem, led by their bishop, St. Simeon. A civil war ensues. Nero sends Vespasian and Titus to put down the insurrection.
*67 Martyrdom of St. Peter. Tradition states that he was crucified upside down. St. Linus succeeds him as pope (-76).
*69 Fall of Jerusalem. The Temple is destroyed. Tacitus records that 600 000 Jews were slaughtered during the siege; Josephus said it was a million.
70s *76 Pope St. Cletus (Anacletus) reigns(-88). 80s *c. 88 The reign of Pope St. Clement I (-97). During his pontificate, he issues a letter to the Corinthians, urging them to submit themselves to lawful religious authority. He writes “Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.” 90s *95 Persecution of Christians in Rome under Domitian. *97 Pope St. Evaristus accedes to the Chair of Peter (-105).
100s *c. 100 Death of John, the last apostle. The period of Public Revelation comes to an end. *c.100 Birth of St. Justin Martyr (d. c. 165), Church Father. He wrote two Apologies of the Faith, and A Dialogue with Trypho, the Jew. In his writings, he bears witness to a number of Catholic doctrines. In one famous passage, he describes the Order of the Mass.
*c. 105 Death of Pope St. Evaristus. Pope St. Alexander I replaces him (-115).

you can read the rest at the site I gave above.

 

[Cinette]

Esdra:
*Sorry Esdra but your theology is Macaroni theology!

You need to revise your studies carefully before you pronounce yourself.

Blessings
Cinette*

 

[KathleenGee]

Church Militant, thank you for your post…I have read these in the past…

If only people knew early Church history, and the references to the practice of belief in the Eucharist…St. Justin the Martyr who died around 133 AD, was asked to write what happens at the Mass…and affirms the same…

 

[Leeann]

But how do you know that? That was my question. How do you know that for a fact on matters where your “belief” is in conflict with Catholic interpretation? The Church, mind you, who gave the worlrd the Bible through which you came to know Christ.

*I didn’t come to know Christ *through **the bible….my conversion experience was first, and the bible came after.

If I were to extend your line of thinking, the leaders of the Davidian Sect and People’s temple claimed the same thing.

That is a generous offer, but I’m not in need of it thankyou,
He’s already led me home…I am at home, in Him.

Phil 4: 6 & 7

[6] Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.[7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

It’s not just with the Bible, but in every normal day living, when the normal everyday challenges start getting the better of me…and they do a lot……to be able to stop and have the focus brought back to Him……

no other spirit would - or could - do that.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Church_Militant]

Where in scripture does that say? Okay, yes, as a faithful Jew he certainly did so - but the is no prove from scripture actually.
By the way at the marriage in canaaan Jesus was quite “rude” to her:

**John 2:4

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. **

Except for the fact that the term “woman” was an honorific and not the slight that you allege it to be. Moreover, if it had been such a rebuke, (which the scripture nowhere even infers!) then why did Our Lord actually comply and begin His public ministry ahead of schedule at Mary’s request?

No, you http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/failstamp.png

there are also other examples that he didn’t always honor her, like when He said as a twelve year old:
"48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business? (Luke 2:46+47)

I mean imagine that: A twelve year old ran away, sort of, from his parents and then even asked them WHY they searched him. Is this really perfect honoring of father and mother?

Esdra

You stop your quote of context too soon. Notice here what the rest of the passage actually says.
51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them. And his mother kept all these words in her heart.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hymns are very much and integral part of worship and fall very neatly into the category of Worship as we show adoration through them, devotion through them and our love and praise through them. A Hymn is not just some sideline item that gets thrown into any worship service of Mass but are part of our worship towards the Trinity. In the Old Testament they were also part of the temple worship service as well.

A lot of your posts here seem to be an effort to confuse people about Catholicism, than they are to help people understand our faith and this post is just another example of that.

You are correct in saying that a “Hymn is not just some sideline” during Mass but I don’t believe that is what the Catholic poster said.

Moreover, not every Hymn, ever written is approved for Mass. Hymns sung during Mass are prayers that come from an approved selection, decided in advance, for that particular Mass and to compliment the readings at that Mass and or the meaning and purpose of a particular Mass. If you are as you claim, a Catholic priest, then you know this.

For instance, at a funeral Mass there is a specific set of readings and hymns, which are allowed.

Most hymns used during a Catholic Mass come straight from of the Bible…many are taken form from the book of Psalms.

I’ve been attending Mass for more than forty years now and I have never heard the hymn discussed here, recited during a Catholic Mass. It sounds to me like a sacramental… a statue of Mary, was being blessed and that is when this particular hymn was allegedly recited… so what… What is your point?.

Priests bless objects all the time and the use of sacramental’s are allowed in Catholicism and go back to traditions, found in the early Church. If you are a priest, then you know this as well.

Is your purpose here, to confuse Catholics and to undermine Catholicism? I asked this question because it sure seems that way… based on your posts here.

Your thoughts?

 

[benedictus2]

*I didn’t come to know Christ *through **the bible….my conversion experience was first, and the bible came after.

And how do you come to know Christ apart from the Bible? Private revelation?

Yes…I’ve noticed from many of your posts, how easy it is for you to be able to assume and extend someone else’s “line of thinking” for them.

It is called logical thinking. Maybe you don’t use it that often but it actually helps for clarity of thinking.And I think you know I am right in that matter, that is why this is all you can offer as a rebuttal.

Well, if it is the height of pride, I’m sure HE will let me know.

He can’t because you insist on your own authority. As I said before, Leannism. And you know that you couldn’t fault my logic on that.

I have never said that “*I am the authority when it comes to matters of faith.” *

The way YOU have coined this phrase and posted it *as if *that is what I said, is very misleading.Oh yes, you do. As I explained to you before, when you and the Catholic Church comes to a fork in the road and you insist on your own interpretation, that goes to show very clearly, that you consider yourself the authority on these matters. You do not want to face that truth, but unfortunately that is the truth. In your case, it is my way or the highway.

• Oh I have and will continue to do so.*

I hope that that is indeed the case. Only time will tell.

• That is a generous offer, but I’m not in need of it thankyou,
  He’s already led me home…I am at home, in Him.*

No you’re not. And that is the sad part. You’re not at home and you do not even know it. But I think you do have an inkling of it somewhere deep inside you but you are fighting it.

 

[benedictus2]

A lot of your posts here seem to be an effort to confuse people about Catholicism,

 

[Cinette]

*I didn’t come to know Christ *through **the bible….my conversion experience was first, and the bible came after.

Yes…I’ve noticed from many of your posts, how easy it is for you to be able to assume and extend someone else’s “line of thinking” for them.

Well, if it is the height of pride, I’m sure HE will let me know.

I have never said that “*I am the authority when it comes to matters of faith.” *The way YOU have coined this phrase and posted it *as if *that is what I said, is very misleading.

Oh I have and will continue to do so.

That is a generous offer, but I’m not in need of it thankyou,
He’s already led me home…I am at home, in Him.

Phil 4: 6 & 7

[6] Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.[7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

It’s not just with the Bible, but in every normal day living, when the normal everyday challenges start getting the better of me…and they do a lot……to be able to stop and have the focus brought back to Him……

no other spirit would - or could - do that.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

*That is an excellent book and one that is just right for learning. I read some of the stories 4 or 5 times.

You said you would continue to learn about Catholic History and this is an opportunity and you pass it over? Is that wise?

Hmmm… pride maybe Leeann?

Blessings
Cinette*m

 

[Leeann]

And how do you come to know Christ apart from the Bible? Private revelation?

By God’s Mercy and Grace.

It is called logical thinking. Maybe you don’t use it that often but it actually helps for clarity of thinking.And I think you know I am right in that matter, that is why this is all you can offer as a rebuttal.

No….it is called presumption to suit your own purpose….and you finish off once again doing it ….”*And I think you know *I am right in that matter……”.

It could be just a bad habit you have gotten into.

He can’t because you insist on your own authority. As I said before, Leannism. And you know that you couldn’t fault my logic on that.

…see below…

Orig posted by Leeann:
*I have never said that “I am the authority when it comes to matters of faith.” The way YOU have coined this phrase and posted it as if that is what I said, is very misleading. *

Response Benedictus2:Oh yes, you do. As I explained to you before, when you and the Catholic Church comes to a fork in the road and you insist on your own interpretation, that goes to show very clearly, that you consider yourself the authority on these matters. You do not want to face that truth, but unfortunately that is the truth. In your case, it is my way or the highway.

I repeat, I’ve never claimed “I am the authority”…those are your words and you keep repeating it that way for no other reason than an attempt to lend credence to what you claim to be logical thinking……IF I had said that, then it would be acceptable….however I did not say that at all.

What I DID say was:

“The Holy Spirit is the support for my interpretation….” – therein is the authority.
Well past my bedtime here and I have work all day tomorrow!

 

[Cinette]

By God’s Mercy and Grace.

No….it is called presumption to suit your own purpose….and you finish off once again doing it ….”*And I think you know *I am right in that matter……”.

It could be just a bad habit you have gotten into.

…see below…

Orig posted by Leeann:
*I have never said that “I am the authority when it comes to matters of faith.” The way YOU have coined this phrase and posted it as if that is what I said, is very misleading. *

I repeat, I’ve never claimed “I am the authority”…those are your words and you keep repeating it that way for no other reason than an attempt to lend credence to what you claim to be logical thinking……IF I had said that, then it would be acceptable….however I did not say that at all.

What I DID say was:

“The Holy Spirit is the support for my interpretation….” – therein is the authority.

*If one were to ask the same question to Protestants of many denominations they would all answer that they were guided by the Holy Spirit. Yet they all believe different things. So Leeann, only one Church can be right guided by the Spirit. So is the Spirit then teaching those in the denominations error? I mean, they can’t all have the truth since their truths are all different, that is why they split in the first place?

See the problem Leeann? Can you explain please?

Cinette*

 

[Leeann]

That is an excellent book and one that is just right for learning. I read some of the stories 4 or 5 times.

You said you would continue to learn about Catholic History and this is an opportunity and you pass it over? Is that wise?

In this particular case I believe so.

Hmmm… pride maybe Leeann?

I’d call it ‘contentment’….I’m not agonizing over doctrine/soul searching…as those described by Benedictus2 (excerpt in green of post below)….as I said….I’m already “home”.

Phil 4: 6 & 7
[6] Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.[7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

*Benedictus2: On another thread, I offered the protestants I was debating with to send them a book called Surprised by Truth. These are the stories of Protestants who have indeed been Surprised by Truth and was led home to the Catholic Church. Here you will see their agonizings over doctrine, their soul searching *and how finally the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth led them home.

…okay…NOW off to bed!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

LeeAnn, feelings are a notoriously unreliable guide to truth.

Plenty of people are absolutely ‘content’ to sin. And they are ‘content’ in their justifications of the sin or their rationalizations. (Of course, I am not implying that you are sinning yourself. Just pointing out that even those who ‘sincerely’ seek to know truth do not necessarily find it simply by feeling ‘content.’)

If you were just swimming around happily with a bunch of different people, each looking for a ‘personal’ way to their ‘personal’ idea of God and heaven, then hey, I’m sure that being ‘content’ would be a big part of your search for God/heaven. It wouldn’t really ‘matter’ if other people had different ideas, because by your way of thinking, what ‘suited’ them and made them content was all that was necessary.’

Except, um, wait a moment. If that were the case, then you’d be telling us Catholics not that we were wrong, but that we were ‘right for us but not for you.’

Instead, you’re definitely saying that Catholics are wrong, and you don’t want any part of us. . .not because you have a way that ‘works for you’, but that YOUR way is the ‘right’ way, not ours.

And again we ask, by what authority can you be sure? I mean, it’s not like we aren’t ‘as content’ as you. I surely feel great peace and content and Assurance of MY Catholic teachings being correct!!!

Two different people, LeeAnn and Tantum, equally searching, equally understanding, equally imploring of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit guides LeeAnn to position A and Tantum to position B. . .but the positions contradict each other.

How does LeeAnn KNOW that she is right and Tantum is wrong? What is LeeAnn’s authority? And why is Tantum, who actually goes to the Scriptural authority (Spirit and Church), ‘wrong’ according to LeeAnn?

 

[benidict]

so true tantum. i firmly believe without reservation that it is the Catholic Church, that truly is led by the Holy Spirit. lets say another 1000 years goes by. where do you think all these denominations are going to be? i know where the Catholic Church will be. still here! alot of these movements and denominations that have no root, in apostolic authority will be no more. we have seen this throughout history, and will continue to see it. this is what happens when you trade the apostolic authority for the teachings of a charismatic leader, who supposedly was led by God to start his/her own movement, with no accounability. furthermore. those that are closer to us, Anglicans, Lutherans, Orthodox, etc. may very well be reconciled by that time. Peace

 

[Saintlucy]

*I am sure I speak for all Catholics on this thread when I say thank you Benedictus for your excellent exposition.

I am sure you do not feel victorious but rather, very sad indeed. A Catholic priest should be catechised well enough to be able to instruct Catholics properly and fully. This is regrettable.

The question remains : Is Fr John really a Catholic priest?

Cinette
*

I still feel the same. I have waded through the gobledegook replies of “I was only showing a different point to view,” to paraphrase FrJohn’s explanations of what he was trying to say. I don’t know if any others got PMs from him and Padrej. I didn’t understand what they were trying to say in them either. They were extremely terse; bordering on aggressive.
I was so bewildered by what I was reading that I took FrJohn’s early posts to Mass on Sunday and showed them to a very learned priest. He read through them very carefully and said, “What a load of rubbish!”
I’d rather trust one of my own priests (Franciscan) than someone who says they were trained as a priest at a Dominican seminary but doesn’t know how to put what the Church teaches into words.

I would love to be wrong but I don’t think I am.

 

[benidict]

*I am sure I speak for all Catholics on this thread when I say thank you Benedictus for your excellent exposition.

I am sure you do not feel victorious but rather, very sad indeed. A Catholic priest should be catechised well enough to be able to instruct Catholics properly and fully. This is regrettable.

The question remains : Is Fr John really a Catholic priest?

Cinette
*

hi cinette. in Father John defense, yes, i do believe he is really a Catholic Priest. i believe this whole thing was huge misunderstanding. and it is sad i have had some interesting corrospondance with him p.m. and i do not believe he is anything other than what he claims to be. i bet if we could all sit down for a cup of coffee, face to face the outcome would be different. its hard sometimes with the internet and “post” to sometimes grasp context. nothing against benidictus. Love his/her defense of the faith. Peace to all. :grouphug:

 

[KathleenGee]

When I shared with Fr John my training through my bishop, he said he was trying to broaden the perspective…but the Dominicans’ motto is ‘Veritatis’…and I also wonder where he has the time to be on here…guess in England it is different, but there are few priests in America who have time online…