Why is it wrong to love Mary, the Mother of God?

[FrJohnB]

What is the name of the parish…location not important…but Fr, you talk some times like you are not a priest…

I came from a diocese…that shut down its own seminary…and they were now the American church and were all out for change…and there were those who had alot of their own takes and opinions.

One parish was targeted…They spent a while teaching the people about priestless parishes. People would come and smile and then eat refreshments and go home. No protests or fighting. Good Catholic parishioners with their beloved priests.

Well at the end, the lead priest asked everyone to raise hands if they liked the lay service. Everybody did. Then he made this scenario…‘If you had to drive 80 miles to Mass, how many would prefer to stay and go to a lay service…no response…How many would bother to drive then, 80 miles?’…Everybody raised their hands.

The lead priest was in total shock. And the people were just the same, smiling and resepectful.

The sheep know their Shepherd and He knows them.

We love our priests, even when they are a little naughty.

St. Alphonsus is the name of the parish.
What makes you think pray tell that I am not a priest?

 

[FrJohnB]

The parish that wouldn’t allow Mary to be venerated for over 20 years for fear of offending the Protestants now refers to her as Mama Mary…Filipino way.

After coming home from overseas, I told my grandmother I am a Roman Catholic, not an American Catholic where everything is so watered down that we are on the neurotic side. She told me to keep going to Mass and to look at Christ in the sacraments.

Things got worse. Finally, people began turning to the Blessed Mother for support of faith…it seems devotions are quite intense when the world around them is falling apart. We see how helpless we are, we don’t see the fruit of our prayers, and so Mary becomes more and more a mother and protectress to carry us through…the humble heel of Mary…Revelations, ‘the great sign that appeared in the sky’…we don t know if it is Mary, but people privately wonder if that is referring to her past apparitions to help the world turn back to Jesus.

Mary of Fatima told the children that in the end, her immaculate heart would triumph…her heart is the only ‘safe’ place in the world now, and it is shared knowledge that when Catholics are spiritually wounded that Mary helps restore and heal…of course, through the Holy Spirit.

It is Mary of Fatima who saved the life of John Paul II…after that, he became much closer to her.

We have been living in the age of Mary…it is coming to a close and what is to be followed is the Glory of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…she is preparing us for a new life in Christ, as she prepared Him before, and we hope renewal and reunification among Christians and possibly even Muslims.

True devotion to Mary always brings us to God’s will and her Son Jesus. Christ’s flesh and blood came from Mary, and we should remember the offering of her self for Him as well when we receive communion, to thank her for her fiat – yes.

Kathleen
I think your words here in the last paragraph are very telling.
True devotion to Mary always brings us to God’s will and her Son Jesus. Christ’s flesh and blood came from Mary, and we should remember the offering of her self for Him as well when we receive communion, to thank her for her fiat – yes.
I have NO PROBLEM with Devotion, when that “devotion” crosses the line to where it violates the teachings of the church and places Mary above that of the Trinity (which I have seen) then I have a problem. I agree with what you posted here 110% especially the last paragraph. Bear with me I do not sometimes explain myself too well on paper.

 

[FrJohnB]

Well, I wish you luck with your “mixed-up” parishioners… I’ll pray for you and the members of your parish. It isn’t ever a good thing when "Catholics’ don’t understand their own religion, because they can’t defend the Catholic Church against non-Catholic myths and lies, when they don’t know what those myths and lies are… right?
Peace

You got that right. As Granny Clampet said, “you slobbered a bib full with that statement.” Priests should drive away all erroneous doctrines from the church just as bishops and the pontiff because Priests are in the trenches so to speak.

 

[Padrej]

The parish that wouldn’t allow Mary to be venerated for over 20 years for fear of offending the Protestants now refers to her as Mama Mary…Filipino way.

After coming home from overseas, I told my grandmother I am a Roman Catholic, not an American Catholic where everything is so watered down that we are on the neurotic side. She told me to keep going to Mass and to look at Christ in the sacraments.

Things got worse. Finally, people began turning to the Blessed Mother for support of faith…it seems devotions are quite intense when the world around them is falling apart. We see how helpless we are, we don’t see the fruit of our prayers, and so Mary becomes more and more a mother and protectress to carry us through…the humble heel of Mary…Revelations, ‘the great sign that appeared in the sky’…we don t know if it is Mary, but people privately wonder if that is referring to her past apparitions to help the world turn back to Jesus.

Mary of Fatima told the children that in the end, her immaculate heart would triumph…her heart is the only ‘safe’ place in the world now, and it is shared knowledge that when Catholics are spiritually wounded that Mary helps restore and heal…of course, through the Holy Spirit.

It is Mary of Fatima who saved the life of John Paul II…after that, he became much closer to her.

We have been living in the age of Mary…it is coming to a close and what is to be followed is the Glory of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…she is preparing us for a new life in Christ, as she prepared Him before, and we hope renewal and reunification among Christians and possibly even Muslims.

True devotion to Mary always brings us to God’s will and her Son Jesus. Christ’s flesh and blood came from Mary, and we should remember the offering of her self for Him as well when we receive communion, to thank her for her fiat – yes.

It sounds like if devotion to Mary or Veneration of her was not done for fear of being offensive then you were not being spiritually correct but politically correct.

I personally do not like the “momma” title when it comes to Mary; “Mother” I can deal with. I guess momma raised my hackles when I think of the Aramaic word Jesus would have used in the Our Father which is “Abba” meaning “daddy.” Mother seems the more respectable of the two.

 

[cruisin]

Of the quotes that I love the most of John Paul II to Mary His motto was “Totus tuus”, or “Totally yours.” This was his devotion to her and it should be that of a Catholic towards both Mary and Jesus. "I also entrust myself once again to you (Mary) and with confident affection I repeat to you: Totus tuus ego sum! I am all yours! "

FrJohnB,

please define for me, what you mean by “Totally yours” and what do you think John Paul II meant by this term?

this seems to say something that could easily be taken as over the top, meaning cross the line of appreciation, veneration, and some form of Worship, meaning that he is dependent on Mary for something. What is that something?

What would be the signs of someone who has crossed the line, and was Worshiping Mary?

cruisin

 

[Padrej]

Well, I wish you luck with your “mixed-up” parishioners… I’ll pray for you and the members of your parish. It isn’t ever a good thing when "Catholics’ don’t understand their own religion, because they can’t defend the Catholic Church against non-Catholic myths and lies, when they don’t know what those myths and lies are… right?
Peace

it is bad enough when Protestants can’t defend their faith, Praise God for persons like Fr John who are willing to teach it. Like the old saying goes if you don’t stand for something you fall for everything.

I too have run into Catholics who put Mary above the Trinity and that is a crying shame.

 

[Jimmy_B]

You got that right. As Granny Clampet said, “you slobbered a bib full with that statement.” Priests should drive away all erroneous doctrines from the church just as bishops and the pontiff because Priests are in the trenches so to speak.

I agree… One God, One Baptism, One Church!

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, One Pope and one belief… all United in the One Body of Christ!

God Bless!

 

[KathleenGee]

OK…Fr John,…I will have to go back…it was some phrases you used…I come across some tricky people some time so now I am a jaded person.

I am beginning to think you may be in a parish I left. Don’t want to say too much more, but the priests were always addressing people on a few excesses…they got nowhere…makes me think of the clerics dealing with the Spanish laity during the Spanish Inquisition.

I am married to a Filipino…but he is not devotional…just to sports, tv. We think it endearing the Filipinos call Mary that…and in time, when Mary was starting to come back into the parish, there would be giggling and then finally they coming out more calling her that…I saw one of their bulletins and the parish is now referring to Mary as Mama…It is an endearment.

I was very touched by the Italian and other European Latin devotion to Mary…very refined, spiritual, contemplative in the companionship of Mary. I experienced it…the result of it was a contemplative entry, a reflective entry into experiencing Mary…a sense of personhood…very vague…not like what I experience in the Lord through the Holy Spirit…but there…and then I experienced a union with her enduring in this reflection…to then I experienced her…but then it immediately went into an effect…we were suffering alot for the people…and the first thing I experienced was the presence of heaven around me…again…not intense but more on a contemplative reflective level…then a sense that my suffering…a cross in itself for the suffering people began to be lifted and I felt stronger, and then a light coming into my soul, and then a spirit of joy…but refined…not intense like the Holy Spirit…so it was more like a general experience around me, rather than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and those intense, consolating moments…Mary’s was more as a companion, subtle, and not taking away from the Lord…more of a help and strenghtening.

From there my devotion grew, but only after 7 years of reflections.

 

[FrJohnB]

FrJohnB,

please define for me, what you mean by “Totally yours” and what do you think John Paul II meant by this term?

this seems to say something that could easily be taken as over the top, meaning cross the line of appreciation, veneration, and some form of Worship, meaning that he is dependent on Mary for something. What is that something?

What would be the signs of someone who has crossed the line, and was Worshiping Mary?

cruisin

I think John Paul’s devotion to Mary totally changed when he was shot and she interceded for him. He knew she was holding him. This caused him IMO to be devoted to her as the one who truly does intercede and hold us up when we pray to her. I think his devotion to Mary was equal however to that of Jesus Christ, it was just that that incident deepened the love for her.

What are the signs: OK those I have noticed are more devotion to Mary than the Eucharist. More prayers to Mary and giving her ALL credit as if she is the God who helped the person out of “x” situation. Missing mass because of a novena to Mary (that one I can give on some because you are still praying). No other saint is asked to intercede only Mary. Rejecting the prayers of other faithful in favor of only praying to Mary (hey if I am sick or in trouble I want ALL the prayers I can get). I have seen people refuse to do the stations of the cross in favor of just staying in front of a Marian altar.
Does this give you an example of “crossing the line”?

 

[KathleenGee]

My remark to Protestants is that they have basically nothing to fear…and a new world opens up…Mary, the angels, the saints…as a communion with us…and this communion, with the liturgical year celebrations and feastdays makes me feel at times that being a Catholic…with all the broken, bad, imperfect people with me…nevertheless, experience something of the kingdom of God on earth…meaning day to day structure…

I love daily Mass…today being the feast day of the Sacred Heart of Jesus…tomorrow is the Immaculate Heart of Mary…our only safe place on earth…she can provide the deepest protection for our faith.

Mary really makes our church a family, she has her own sense of humor, and she takes the edge of all the legalism of doctrine, etc. I really liked John Paul II’s devotion to Mary.

 

[Jimmy_B]

it is bad enough when Protestants can’t defend their faith, Praise God for persons like Fr John who are willing to teach it. Like the old saying goes if you don’t stand for something you fall for everything.

I too have run into Catholics who put Mary above the Trinity and that is a crying shame.

I agree, it’s not only a crying shame, it is a violation of the first Commandment. Although, I know that with over a billion Catholics worldwide, there are some whose beliefs are inconsistent with Catholic teachings and Catholic doctrine… personally, I have never met and observant Catholic who worshiped Mary or who put anything, or anybody before God, represented in the Holy Trinity… The only “Catholics” that I have ever heard falsehoods from, about the Catholic Church and what we believe, are either former Catholics (Apostates) who were uneducated and uninformed Catholics, when they were Catholic and very confused Catholics… Most of these negative myths regarding Marian beliefs in Catholicism, originate in Protestant circles…

 

[KathleenGee]

Side comment here as a wife and mother…alot of people are going through an awful lot with their families, work, and society at large…and they turn to devotions to pray extra hard…people are afraid of the direction and state of our economy and the world, and this may be why there seems alot of people turning to Mary…

They are turning to her for support of faith, to help ease their fear, and help them trust God more. In God, all things are possible. Mary is the North Star, Star of the Sea, the tumultuous sea that is guiding us…

I like the Carmelites’ take on Kings in the OT…to them the small cloud like a hand that rose up above the sea with Elijah looking out and waiting for rain to come to the parched land…the small cloud to them is Mary…Maria, sea of grace…when I read the passage on my own, I saw the small cloud like a hand rising from the sea…to the apparition of Mary to St. Simon Stock, the Carmelite, after they moved to England to escape the Saracens…how the small hand of Mary handed Simon the Brown Scapular…

Mary, Flos Carmeli…the Flower of Carmel…my favorite title of her.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Your post reminded me of a time I was watching EWTN and Mother Angelica had a priest from the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception on and was taking calls. The Caller was obviously a Protestant and gave this passage earlier mentioned by JimmyB

…The look on her face was priceless when the priest quickly jumped in and said, “Wait a minute, we do only have one mediator and that is the person of Jesus Christ. We Pray to Mary to ask her intersession much like you would ask a person who is alive to pray for you, we serve a God of the living as Jesus said.”

I said that to say this, that there are many in the Catholic church who take some of the devotion to the extreme and view Mary as another mediator when we should be going to the Son Jesus… (Too long to post entire comment here, go to original post for **FrJohnB’**s entire comment)

This may have been an instance where this priest was better able to explain the term, “the one mediator”. However, I don’t believe that Mother Angelica worships Mary, nor do I believe that she believes that Mary is equal to Christ. Unfortunately though that appears to be the inference, having been made here.

I believe that the confusion may stem from the words - “intersession”, “mediation” and the term, “the one mediator” meaning, "for there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:1-7).
St. Mary can intercede or “mediate” for us, to her son and our Lord Jesus Christ, in prayer and on our behalf, in prayer. This is a Catholic belief.

This “mediation” would be like a lawyer who would defend you in court and would help you “plead your case”, where Mary is praying for you and with you to her son, Jesus Christ, the finale judge or the -* “one mediator between God and the human race”.*

Catholics believe in the Communion of the Saints and in Intercessory Prayer. We also believe that Christ is the One Mediator, in the sense that He alone cast finale Judgment or, the “one mediator between God and the human race”.

I believe that St. Paul understood these distinctions, and Mary’s role when he wrote 1 Tim 2:1-2.

If one looks up the word “** intercede”** he will find that the word intercede and mediate are interchangeable.

"act between parties with a view to reconciling differences; “He interceded in the family dispute”; “He mediated a settlement”
(source-online dictionary)

Moreover, the word “mediate” can be use to describe an intermediate, or liaison, or an in-between. Meaning, in the case of intercessory prayer, St. Mary prays on our behalf to her son, the One Mediator, Christ Jesus.

Additionally, Catholics know that we can and should also pray to God directly.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
**970 **“Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.” “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”

**969 **“This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

 

[Jimmy_B]

Your post reminded me of a time I was watching EWTN and Mother Angelica had a priest from the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception on and was taking calls. The Caller was obviously a Protestant and gave this passage earlier mentioned by JimmyB

The caller then asked why if we only have one mediator between God and man do you pray to Mary. Mother Angelica’s first words were “You are wrong we have another mediator and that is Mary.” (Angrily) The look on her face was priceless when the priest quickly jumped in and said, “Wait a minute, we do only have one mediator and that is the person of Jesus Christ. We Pray to Mary to ask her intersession much like you would ask a person who is alive to pray for you, we serve a God of the living as Jesus said.”

I said that to say this, that there are many in the Catholic church who take some of the devotion to the extreme and view Mary as another mediator when we should be going to the Son Jesus. I have no problem with praying to her for help and assistance just as we would ask others who are living to pray for us when we need help too. The problem is when WE take it too far it gets viewed as being “worship of Mary” instead of veneration that it should be.

There is a difference between the words “mediator” and “intercessor”, in terms of intercessory prayer and the term , “the one mediator” as in 1 Tim 2. I believe that St. Paul understood these distinctions, and Mary’s role as an intercessor, when he wrote 1 Tim 2:1-6.

1 Tim 2:1-6
*First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time. *

Here an excellent article by Mary Beth Kremsky, titled - Making Peace with the Meditrix, at Catholic Answers.

Additionally, here are some on-line books under the title of “Co-Redemptrix & Mediatrix of All Graces”, at Catholic Pages Directory.

I hope this helps.

 

[Padrej]

There is a difference between the words “mediator” and “intercessor”, in terms of intercessory prayer and the term , “the one mediator” as in 1 Tim 2. I believe that St. Paul understood these distinctions, and Mary’s role as an intercessor, when he wrote 1 Tim 2:1-6.

1 Tim 2:1-6
First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time.

Here an excellent article by Mary Beth Kremsky, titled - Making Peace with the Meditrix, at Catholic Answers.

Additionally, here are some on-line books under the title of “Co-Redemptrix & Mediatrix of All Graces”, at Catholic Pages Directory.

I hope this helps.

I agree with you in that there is a difference in Intercessor and Mediator when it comes to prayer. The problem lies in the Original Greek translation of these verses in question. The One mediator is one word in Greek wile we are told to intercede for others and that is an entirely different word.
The Mediator in Greek tends to be one that fights the legal battle for you kind of like a lawyer that stands up before the judge, this is Jesus. One who intercedes pleads on behalf of another. You are correct they are close in meaning but Mary could not be the Mediator that Jesus is in the legal sense before the righteous judge- God.
I think this is where some of the confusion comes in as the words mean something very similar in today’s English but back then one was a legal term the other was not. I believe Paul understood that as you say.

 

[FrJohnB]

I agree with you in that there is a difference in Intercessor and Mediator when it comes to prayer. The problem lies in the Original Greek translation of these verses in question. The One mediator is one word in Greek wile we are told to intercede for others and that is an entirely different word.
The Mediator in Greek tends to be one that fights the legal battle for you kind of like a lawyer that stands up before the judge, this is Jesus. One who intercedes pleads on behalf of another. You are correct they are close in meaning but Mary could not be the Mediator that Jesus is in the legal sense before the righteous judge- God.
I think this is where some of the confusion comes in as the words mean something very similar in today’s English but back then one was a legal term the other was not. I believe Paul understood that as you say.

I think you have hit this properly. We think in language and words and language evolves over time. Just think if you look at the old Douay translation or King James, do we speak that way anymore with thee and thou? NO because language has changed. We in the Church (I am using that word in the broad sense) still use words based in Latin or Greek and expect the common ordinary person to know what the heck we are talking about. Education is the key, if we cannot defend our faith we loose the battle and the other faiths gain a convert.

I do not personally believe that Mother Angelica worshiped Mary either, she was (in the analogy put forth) using older Catholic thought as she was frankly an older Catholic. The Priest being younger knew what the caller was trying to do and that was to corner her into saying there is more than one mediator, thus going against scripture and proving the Protestant point that Catholics pray to Mary the wrong way.

 

[FrJohnB]

I agree, it’s not only a crying shame, it is a violation of the first Commandment. Although, I know that with over a billion Catholics worldwide, there are some whose beliefs are inconsistent with Catholic teachings and Catholic doctrine… personally, I have never met and observant Catholic who worshiped Mary or who put anything, or anybody before God, represented in the Holy Trinity… The only “Catholics” that I have ever heard falsehoods from, about the Catholic Church and what we believe, are either former Catholics (Apostates) who were uneducated and uninformed Catholics, when they were Catholic and very confused Catholics… Most of these negative myths regarding Marian beliefs in Catholicism, originate in Protestant circles…

I agree here also that it is a violation of the first commandment. There are going to be those who are not going to follow ANY church doctrine no matter if they are Catholic or Protestant. Once again education is the key.

 

[Padrej]

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever seriously read Mary Ann Collins the former Catholic Nun’s works?
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/mary_worship_a_study.htm

PLEASE do not cast nasty things my way I am merely posing a question. It seems this former Catholic is using the catechism to logically prove Mary worship in the Catholic church.

 

[benedictus2]

Well I’m protestant, and I love Mary. I don’t pray to her, though. I’ve asked her to pray for me, though. I talk to her, sometimes. I asked if she loved me. It felt good to have a relationship with Mary. It feels like I know a spiritual mother in the same way I know a Spiritual Father.

And she loves you. More than you’ll ever know while you’re on this earth. But you’ll find out when you get to heaven.

And here’s a link to how she led a diehard atheist back to her Son.

marysource.com/articles/alphonse_ratisbonne.htm

 

[benedictus2]

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever seriously read Mary Ann Collins the former Catholic Nun’s works?
jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/mary_worship_a_study.htm

PLEASE do not cast nasty things my way I am merely posing a question. It seems this former Catholic is using the catechism to logically prove Mary worship in the Catholic church.

I read a bit of the article and the lies are amazing. I doubt very much that Mary Ann Collins even exists.

So what can I say? Where the lie is there the devil also, for the devil is the father of lies. Sometime you see only the tail end of the serpent but here it is quite apparent.