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Leeann
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Yes.
However that is not what I meant.
I have since posted excerpts from Catholic sites to show what I was referring too.
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However that is not what I meant.
I have since posted excerpts from Catholic sites to show what I was referring too.
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Leeann
Guest
Medjugorje was the “tipping point” for one my friends - the “fruit” is worship of Mary.*Perhaps Protestants do not know that while we have Fatima, Lourdes and other approved apparitions, the Catholic Church is extremely cautious (sometimes it would seem unfairly so) in this regard as there are false “apparitions”. The Church has to verify such apparitions and sometimes it may take decades - one has to see what fruits such apparitions bear.
I think that is the right thing to do.
Blessings
Cinette*
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Padrej
Guest
Didn’t John Paul II make the process for canonization much easier? I have always heard the 100 year thing but I believe I heard on EWTN that the process is now easier. IS this true?
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Padrej
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My role was more in the Eucharistic prayer portion. Let me also say when I hear “administer” I hear hand out or distribute, but to most Catholics I have ran by on this thread “administer” means the whole Eucharist as one who presides over.
Sad that Gianna Sullivan was exposed as being a fraud by the Vatican, I used to enjoy reading some of her visions from Mary. I understand there were a great deal of angered Catholics when she was barred by the Archdiocese as she had quite a following. What saddens me is the people that she is currently contacting through the internet and meeting clandestinely. One would think that the Catholic church would do a far better job of saying, “this person is not speaking for the church and has been exposed.” My Catholic Aunt in TX was not aware of her censure by the Catholic church and still thought she was legit. That would worry me.
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Padrej
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I would like to try and stab at your “Protestant” history question. I think that there is not really one date certain that you could point to that you could say “devotion to Mary stopped HERE.” It was more of a progression. Calvin may have started out as a lover of Mary but he and his followers did not. By the time of the production of the Geneva Bible the annotations in it were strongly Anti-Catholic because the persecution from the Catholic Church against them was great. So you might say that it was more of a reactionary thing with Protestants to stay away from anything that smacked of Catholicism.*I have seen peasants in Europe going a little overboard but I understand they are not well educated and may overdo things.
I love Mary as my heavenly Mother - I was always very demonstrative towards my Mother and when I was little I told her I loved her all the time. I believe that Mary looks after us and intercedes for us. Is there something wrong with that?
I pray to Almighty God all the time and when I pray the Rosary I meditate on the different mysteries. I have a warm feeling towards Mary but I do not worship her.
I wish to repeat the question. Luther, Calvin and Zwingly ALL loved Mary and believed her to be the Mother of God. They were the “early fathers” of the Protestant movement. At what time did this belief change? When did Protestants begin to reject the role of Mary in the Christian life? Please will someone answer. The question was asked above and nobody has ventured to answer. Why?
Blessings
Cinette
With Luther, his Catholic roots died harder than Calvin. He tried to keep the devotion alive amongst his followers but as more and more time has gone by the Lutheran church as it is today is not the same as it was in the beginning. The same with the Methodists. John Wesley would not recognize his church today as it no longer stresses the almost monk like holiness in its believers as it did in the beginning. He was trying to reform the Church of England to restore the observances of the feasts and fasts and his followers got known by their “methods” hence the name that stuck. Did he reform the CofE? Hardly, he did get them to maybe rethink in some areas.
This is why I say there is no real date that you can pin down because it is rather like a car going downhill with the tires locked to try and stop it. Pieces of the tire are going to be burned into the asphalt and be no longer part of the tire.
Now the good news is there are little seeds within Protestantism that still have a love of Mary and these seeds are growing slowly. Every time I sing the hymn “Faith of our Fathers” which the Protestants love; I think back in my mind that it was originally a Catholic hymn and we omit one verse. The verse is as follows.
Faith of our fathers, Mary’s prayers
Shall win our country back to Thee;
And through the truth that comes from God,
England shall then indeed be free.
I would be interested to know if any English Catholics still sing that verse. From what I understand it has not appeared in a Catholic hymnal since 1950.
Of course there was an Irish version of the 3rd verse too
Faith of Our Fathers, Mary’s prayers
Will keep our country true to thee.
And through the truth that comes from God
Ireland shall then indeed be free.
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Leeann
Guest
nicely put benidictim probably going to get in trouble here…but… oh well… some of the comments directed toward Father John, and Father Padrej, have seemed a little disrepectful and harsh. i get where Father John was coming from in trying to explain Mariology in a way protestants would better understand. we probably need to take a deep breath, and apologize to these two wonderful Priest who are on this thread. i wouldnt speak to my earthly father in this tone reguardless if i disagree with him or not. and i for one, would really feel like i was on shakey ground if i talked to one who has been ordained in a disrespectful manner. if i have made comments to either of you two wonderful Priest, that would seem disrespectful, i apologize in advance. and i would encourage others to look inside themselves and see if they need to do the same. i have been guilty of this before, and it doesnt hurt to back up once in while, and do a self check. love and peace to all of us here.
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Saintlucy
Guest
Written by Frederick Faber, a Catholic priest and a former Calvinist, it refers to the Catholic martyrs of England and Wales who died for their faith under Henry VIII, Edward VI and Elizabeth I. Indeed we do sing it. It was the last hymn that was sung at my father’s requiem Mass in 2002, as his dear body was carried from the church to his resting place. That verse about Mary’s prayers are always sung the loudest because we love her so much and England is “Mary’s Dowry”. It has never ceased to be in our hymn books. I am in the choir at our church and we have a new hymnal which is driving everyone to distraction because it is so “inclusive”. Mankind for instance is "humankind. So often the words don’t scan with the music. Yes, it does say “our country” in this new one but we still sing “England’s” because the Catholics in this country are still so persecuted covertly. Please God, one day England will be free and we Catholics will be treated as equals under the law.
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Cinette
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Cinette
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Cinette
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*Yes it is sad that the “reformers” found it necessary to leave the Catholic Church and plant new churches because what we see is a watering down throughout the ages and the splintering into new denominations. We are not perfect and the Church has to battle with us humans. We need to be corrected and brought in line.
I was away from the CC for 27 years and now that I am back and learning all the time I see the truth and the beauty and, of course, as with anything wonderful and true, I want to share it with everyone. The Catholic Church is for all. I get sad when people are uncharitable towards the Church but Jesus did say that we would be persecuted in His name.
I am pleased that there are Protestants who also love Mary.
Blessings
Cinette
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Leeann
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See Post 332*…the result that this has had on your friends?? Do please explain.
Blessings
Cinette
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Leeann
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Yes…I know.*But we have been warned by the Church about Medjugorje!!
Blessings
Cinette
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
From Leeann:
I suppose if you had what was a very ‘plain’ menu of food that you found perfectly satisfying, you might be ‘worried and upset’ if your friends were eating ‘more’ food or ‘richer’ food than you personally thought appropriate. . .but it doesn’t mean that their diet is worse than yours, or that they are wrong for having ‘richer’ food if they choose, does it?
Because you ‘think’ your friends are paying more 'attention " to Mary than Christ does not make it so.
I suppose if you had what was a very ‘plain’ menu of food that you found perfectly satisfying, you might be ‘worried and upset’ if your friends were eating ‘more’ food or ‘richer’ food than you personally thought appropriate. . .but it doesn’t mean that their diet is worse than yours, or that they are wrong for having ‘richer’ food if they choose, does it?
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Cathryn
Guest
My parish sing the hymn Immaculate Mary every day at the end of Mass.
Immaculate Mary, thy praises we sing;
Who reignest in splendor with Jesus our King.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
We pray for God’s glory; may His kingdom come;
We pray for His vicar, our father, and Rome.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
We pray for our Mother, the Church upon earth,
And bless, dearest Lady, the land of our birth.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
Mary always leads people to Christ. There is no Catholic devotion to Mary that does not magnify the Lord. People who would appear to be over the top in their love and devotion to the Blessed Virgin also appear to be over the top in their love for their Savior. They tend to go to Mass daily and receive the Lord in Holy Communion daily if at all possible. Their relationship to Jesus Christ is much deaper because of their love for His mother. We (Jesus and I) share the same mother. That gives me and Jesus a much closer relationship. Jesus wants to share His mother. That’s why he said on the cross to the beloved disciple, “Behold your mother” and not “John, take care of my mother”.
As far as qualities that Mary shares with the Holy Spirit, here are some: charity, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, continence, chastity, modesty. Also the gifts of the HS: wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, fortitude, piety, and fear of the Lord. Remember, according to Holy Scripture God has done great things for her and Holy is His name. All generations will call her blessed because of her humility and faith in God’s word. Although she is a mere creature, she was chosen, and chose through freewill, to be the spouse of the Holy Spirit. She is a model for us.
Immaculate Mary, thy praises we sing;
Who reignest in splendor with Jesus our King.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
We pray for God’s glory; may His kingdom come;
We pray for His vicar, our father, and Rome.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
We pray for our Mother, the Church upon earth,
And bless, dearest Lady, the land of our birth.
Ave, ave, ave, Maria! Ave, ave, Maria!
Mary always leads people to Christ. There is no Catholic devotion to Mary that does not magnify the Lord. People who would appear to be over the top in their love and devotion to the Blessed Virgin also appear to be over the top in their love for their Savior. They tend to go to Mass daily and receive the Lord in Holy Communion daily if at all possible. Their relationship to Jesus Christ is much deaper because of their love for His mother. We (Jesus and I) share the same mother. That gives me and Jesus a much closer relationship. Jesus wants to share His mother. That’s why he said on the cross to the beloved disciple, “Behold your mother” and not “John, take care of my mother”.
As far as qualities that Mary shares with the Holy Spirit, here are some: charity, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, continence, chastity, modesty. Also the gifts of the HS: wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, fortitude, piety, and fear of the Lord. Remember, according to Holy Scripture God has done great things for her and Holy is His name. All generations will call her blessed because of her humility and faith in God’s word. Although she is a mere creature, she was chosen, and chose through freewill, to be the spouse of the Holy Spirit. She is a model for us.
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Cinette
Guest
*Well then???!!!
Have you seen a Pope honouring Mary at Medugorja?? Why would he if he tells us to be careful and not to go there??!!
Cinette
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Cathryn
Guest
Someone here talked about Catholics going overboard in crowning Mary and carrying her statue around. These same Catholics probably took the Blessed Sacrament in procession through their neighborhood sharing their faith yesterday on the Feast of Corpus Christi. Here is the hymns we sang in procession with the Blessed Sacrament to Jesus Christ:
Sing, my tongue,
The mystery of the glorious body,
And of the precious Blood,
Shed to save the world,
By the King of the nations,
The fruit of a noble womb.
Down in adoration falling,
Lo! the sacred Host we hail,
Lo! o’er ancient forms departing
Newer rites of grace prevail;
Faith for all defects supplying,
Where the feeble senses fail.
O God, who in this wonderful Sacrament left us a memorial of your Passion: grant, we implore you, that we may so venerate the sacred mysteries of your body and blood, as always to be conscious of the fruit of your redemption.
Of course it sounds and flows better in Latin. Our worship of Jesus Christ our Savior is much richer than most Protestants are used to. We kneel, we adore, and we praise God in a way that is foriegn to non-Catholics. Our Holy Communion with Jesus Christ is the most intimate act a human can have with God and one another. We become one Body with Christ as our head. We become living tabernacles of Jesus Christ. Holy Scripture says this (the cup of blessing and the breaking of bread) is how we share in His redemption of us according to St. Paul.
Our devotions to Mary may seem over the top if taken out of context. In context it is not worship. Mary is a creature, but the mother of our Lord and Savior and our mother now. Jesus gave her to us to help us come to Him.
Sing, my tongue,
The mystery of the glorious body,
And of the precious Blood,
Shed to save the world,
By the King of the nations,
The fruit of a noble womb.
Down in adoration falling,
Lo! the sacred Host we hail,
Lo! o’er ancient forms departing
Newer rites of grace prevail;
Faith for all defects supplying,
Where the feeble senses fail.
O God, who in this wonderful Sacrament left us a memorial of your Passion: grant, we implore you, that we may so venerate the sacred mysteries of your body and blood, as always to be conscious of the fruit of your redemption.
Of course it sounds and flows better in Latin. Our worship of Jesus Christ our Savior is much richer than most Protestants are used to. We kneel, we adore, and we praise God in a way that is foriegn to non-Catholics. Our Holy Communion with Jesus Christ is the most intimate act a human can have with God and one another. We become one Body with Christ as our head. We become living tabernacles of Jesus Christ. Holy Scripture says this (the cup of blessing and the breaking of bread) is how we share in His redemption of us according to St. Paul.
Our devotions to Mary may seem over the top if taken out of context. In context it is not worship. Mary is a creature, but the mother of our Lord and Savior and our mother now. Jesus gave her to us to help us come to Him.
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Saintlucy
Guest
How beautiful are your words, Catryn and how fortunate your are to have processions. We don’t have them anymore, really since the end of Vatican II, although I can’t see that the Council said anything about processions. It seemed, at the time, that we were bending over backwards to appease the Protestants, at least in this country. Our Blessed Lady was put on the back burner, so to speak.
I remember so well as a child, the May procession and the crowning of the statue of Our Lady and the incredibly beautiful Corpus Christi procession when our Lord was taken out of the church in a monstrance, sheltered by a canopy of cloth of gold and escorted by the priests and brothers (it was a Franciscan parish as is the one I live in now) and us little ones in our Holy Communion dresses and suits. The whole parish turned out and people used to come out of their houses to watch, never saying a word. I think we had Benediction outside. Oh, thank God we still have Benediction here in this parish.
The wonderful hymns we sang:
“Bring flowers of the fairest”. I can’t even start writing the words down as they make me cry.
“Pange Lingua”, as you mentioned - just gorgeous.
I guess we are too frightened to do this now. People are supposed to be more tolerant these days but England, Mary’s Dowry, has become almost secular although it is supposed to be a Christian country with an established Church. Yeah, right…
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Cathryn
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We were without the processions and May crownings for about 40 years too. I have a wonderful pastor now who is bring back the annual May crowning of Mary and the Procession of Corpus Christi. Father had one of the women make a gorgeous canapy for it. He also celebrates the Traditional Latin Mass as well as the Novus Ordo in English and in Spanish. After the daily Mass he leads the singing of the Ave Maria. We are very blessed to have a Pastor like him. Hopefully, more parishes will follow. The new seminarians my Pastor trains seem to love what they experience when they train here. This all brings about a greater reverence for Jesus Christ.
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Saintlucy
Guest
Sound like a very interesting parish. Where are you? If you don’t want to say here you can PM me. I would really like to find a way of doing this next year or even for the Assumption. I’m in the choir which clashes a bit with the Liturgy Group but it’s something we can work on together. I think that the children will really benefit. As I said, I’ve never forgotten.
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Cathryn
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I am in Crescent City, California. If you would like any other information feel free to contact me.
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