Why is it wrong to love Mary, the Mother of God?

[Leeann]

Wait a minute, LeeAnn. So you and the Catholic Church hold different views of what Scripture says?

Yes.

Why then do you claim that your interpretation is more ‘authoritative’ than the Church’s?

You don’t. I’ve never said you had to accept ‘my’ interpretation?
Off to bed!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes.

I’ve never claimed that.

Again….I don’t know how to respond to that, as I’ve never claimed it to be self-interpreting or able to be easily understood by ‘all’………….

The Holy Spirit is the support for my intepretation…and you’re correct when you state that it’s not in the history (Catholic church’s history) of Christendom…how could it be, since they are two different interpretations?

You don’t. I’ve never said you had to accept ‘my’ interpretation?

Wait, when you get up again, mind telling us how you can claim the Holy Spirit is the support for your interpretation, but the Holy Spirit is NOT the support for the Catholic Church’s interpretation?

How do you know you actually heard the Holy Spirit, and not a 'dark Spirit?" The Devil can disguise himself as an angel of light.

You’ll say, “Well obviously and the Catholic Church listened to him”. . . but again, how do you KNOW? “Feeling”? What SUPPORT do you actually have for your interpretation when you yourself acknowledge that Christian history does not support you?

The Holy Spirit does not teach against Himself. If your opinion on Matthew is authentic, then it should be held in a unified way by all Protestant Christians. Furthermore, all Protestant Christians should be ‘united’ in their beliefs. Even if they personally might ‘sin’ by disobedience, they should all be united in the teachings.

If they aren’t, then ONE group, and one only, must have all the ‘correct’ teachings. Which is it?

 

[KathleenGee]

Leann,

I don’t think you know ‘Catholic’ interpretation, otherwise you wouldn’t be coming across like you are.

I go to Mass as much as I can during the week and the homilies and reflections are so solid and so much a part of the history of salvation and its peoples, that I don’t know where you are coming from.

I think it is not the Scripture in itself, because the correct relationship of Scripture transcends other peoples’ humanity to bring us to the Lord and His fruits…and reconciles us with our neighbor.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello Cathryn - that ‘someone’ would be me.

This hymn is sung during the “May Crowning” – the crowning of a statue of Mary in May.

Bring flow’rs of the fairest,
Bring flow’rs of the rarest,
From garden and woodland
And hillside and vale;
Our full hearts are swelling,
Our Glad voices telling
The praise of the loveliest
Rose of the vale.

O Mary! we crown thee with blossoms today,
Queen of the Angels, Queen of the May,
O Mary! we crown thee with blossoms today,
Queen of the Angels, Queen of the May.

Our voices ascending,
In harmony blending,
Oh! Thus may our hearts turn
Dear Mother, to thee;
Oh! Thus shall we prove thee
How truly we love thee,
How dark without Mary
Life’s journey would be.

O Virgin most tender,
Our homage we render,
Thy love and protection,
Sweet Mother, to win;
In danger defend us,
In sorrow befriend us,
And shield our hearts
From contagion and sin.
Of Mothers the dearest,
Oh, wilt thou be nearest,
When life with temptation
Is darkly replete?
Forsake us, O never!
Our hearts be they ever
As Pure as the lilies
We lay at thy feet.

Very similar honour for them both, however, as you say, Mary is a creature and Jesus is ABOVE all creation……however the way your ‘devotions to Mary’ are actually carried out…may be one reason there are those that would think it may be a bit “overboard” to honour Mary in this way…the same way that the Lord ABOVE all creation is honoured.

It is interesting to note also, that in the hymn for JESUS - mention of Mary is made (noble womb)…however in Mary’s hymn…it’s ALL about her.

I’ve never seen this before but I don’t have a problem with it… It looks like veneration to me, which is biblically based and it would also fall under the Christian belief in the Communion of Saints…

What I don’t get though… is the disconnect between our Christian family, which Mary is definitely a member of and our "real " or biological family.

If I gave my wife a birthday card, using similar words, nobody would accuse me of “worshiping” my wife…

This would also be true of statues and pictures. Nobody criticizes a person for having pictures of their biological family members in their homes. And, Statues, like that of President Lincoln, don’t fall under “worship”… so why the disconnect between things we do in our regular life, or secular life, where one thing is ok and then when it is applied to our religious family, it is supposedly a problem… I don’t get it.

One final thing… I know that there are a lot of non-Catholic Christians who don’t have a problem with the statues of St. Mary and the baby Jesus and so on… contained in a Christmas nativity scene but do have a problem with Catholics who have a statue of Mary in their home. This doesn’t make any sense, does it?

Your thoughts…

 

[KathleenGee]

Jimmy, it is the humanity of Christ, true God and true Man…and when people get off balance, the first to go ironically is not faith in God but faith in Christ as True Man. Christ restores us as well to our humanity.

Truth often expresses itself in beauty…personal forms of praise of the Lord.

 

[Jimmy_B]

What is this ok for non-Catholic Christians? A nativity scene with a statue of Mary.

http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/Christmas_Nativity_Scene_Wallpaper_1024.jpg

But this isn’t ok - A “Catholic” statue of Mary, holding the baby Jesus…
http://www.pasttensecountry.com/catalog/44251 Mary with Child 12inch.jpg%between%

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy, it is the humanity of Christ, true God and true Man…and when people get off balance, the first to go ironically is not faith in God but faith in Christ as True Man. Christ restores us as well to our humanity.

Truth often expresses itself in beauty…personal forms of praise of the Lord.

True, a good example is the book a Psalms, where many of the words used by David to describe his feelings for God and God’s feelings for us, sound as if they came from a love letter …However, when a Catholic Saint, like St John of the Cross, uses similar words, or the same words to describe his love for God… some people feel uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I believe that there are many today who would have a problem using the same words to describe their relationship with God as where used in the book of Psalms… Now why is that?
How many non-Catholic Christians today have a problem with Elizabeth’s comments to Mary, in Luke 1:41-34 (below). Some today, might think that Elisabeth is “too Catholic” in her view of Mary or that, “Elizabeth worshiped Mary”… And they would be wrong about that a well…

*"When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” *

 

[Jimmy_B]

I mean to type “Luke 1:41-43” not, “Luke 1:41-34”.

 

[KathleenGee]

The ministry of Christ came through Mary at Cana…it wasn’t His time—the Man God did say, but it was our Heavenly Mother who requested of Him to help…and thus he followed her request irregardless…

Bringing it back to home life…have a full plate, lots to do and someone asks you to do something…best to follow Christ and respond…

A good imitation of Christ through Mary.

Jimmy B, beautiful pictures by the way. God’s humanity among us. Thank you!

 

[Padrej]

And if you actually bothered to read my post properly you would see that I was referring to the Proto evangelium no to the Epistle

If you read post 470 you would see that I knew full well what you are speaking of.

 

[FrJohnB]

Because there is more to it than was there.

did you ever think that just maybe there are others on this forum who are tired of you going over the same territory again and again. Please go back and re-read post 346 and 348

 

[benidict]

What is this ok for non-Catholic Christians? A nativity scene with a statue of Mary.

http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/Christmas_Nativity_Scene_Wallpaper_1024.jpg

But this isn’t ok - A “Catholic” statue of Mary, holding the baby Jesus…
http://www.pasttensecountry.com/catalog/44251 Mary with Child 12inch.jpg%between%

i love it jimmy. growing up in a Christian Reformed houshold. we always had our nativity scene. an it had a beautiful representation of Mary, Joseph, Jesus. it was the highlight of our year. i think i asked the same question in an earlier post, and i dont think we ever got an answer. hopefully these visual depictions will inspire someone to write. peace

 

[FrJohnB]

No Father, that is not the point at all.

You made a few claims that somehow suggested that what you posted is the latest theological viewpoint of the Church which clearly was not.

That is the point I was getting at.

I truly cannot understand why you would even claim it to be so when as I have said before , even before you posted it, Catholic apologists have already put forward clear and logical refutations of these so called “latest theological” claims.

Even with your latest reply, you still somehow insist that the “brothers of Jesus” are Mary’s children and that this is actually the current thinking in Catholic theological circles.

I hope that makes my point clear.

I have NO PROBLEM with what you say is refuted, it is bunk, bad theology, it has been called so by the church and I do not disagree with the church.

I point to the link on the CAF on the brothers and this somehow makes me think “Jesus’ Brothers” are Mary’s children? Those links show all of the theological arguments of this. Do you see me say, “I agree with that?” when it comes to what is not Catholic doctrine. NO YOU DO NOT, yet you continue to insist that I am misstating this. WHY??? What are you trying to accomplish?
Now that you opened the “Can of Worms” regarding “Mary’s children” let me ask you this. If the church calls Mary its mother, why aren’t they her children in that sense of the word??? Are we not also Mary’s children? The church for centuries has called her “the new Eve” and Eve certainly WAS the mother of all humans.

 

[KathleenGee]

Martin Luther venerated Mary.

Do Fundamentalists Christians have artwork like we see here in the humanity of the Nativity?

The Church helps us to keep our humanity in our desire to grow in the Lord.

 

[benidict]

yes they do. i have been to many fundementalist homes. alot have pictures of the old man praying, the children crossing the bridge with the angel guarding them, and pictures of Jesus. not to mention foot prints in the sand. perhaps a cross somewhere. so they do have their own iconography in a sense. Peace

 

[KathleenGee]

I see alot of artwork with a Bible. But what I was referring to is God’s family, the Holy Family…I wonder about the origin of the Nativity scene. I think the Germans, home of Sola Scriptura, have the most beautiful Christmas expression and music.

 

[Cinette]

I’ve never seen this before but I don’t have a problem with it… It looks like veneration to me, which is biblically based and it would also fall under the Christian belief in the Communion of Saints…

What I don’t get though… is the disconnect between our Christian family, which Mary is definitely a member of and our "real " or biological family.

If I gave my wife a birthday card, using similar words, nobody would accuse me of “worshiping” my wife…

This would also be true of statues and pictures. Nobody criticizes a person for having pictures of their biological family members in their homes. And, Statues, like that of President Lincoln, don’t fall under “worship”… so why the disconnect between things we do in our regular life, or secular life, where one thing is ok and then when it is applied to our religious family, it is supposedly a problem… I don’t get it.

One final thing… I know that there are a lot of non-Catholic Christians who don’t have a problem with the statues of St. Mary and the baby Jesus and so on… contained in a Christmas nativity scene but do have a problem with Catholics who have a statue of Mary in their home. This doesn’t make any sense, does it?

Your thoughts…

*I have a daughter who loved her step Grandfather so much (as we all did) and she has kept a pair of his pajamas which she wears once in a while. She also has a sweater of a person she loved who committed suicide. This might appear weird to some people. I suppose it is her way of remembering and feeling close!

*

 

[Padrej]

I see alot of artwork with a Bible. But what I was referring to is God’s family, the Holy Family…I wonder about the origin of the Nativity scene. I think the Germans, home of Sola Scriptura, have the most beautiful Christmas expression and music.

St Francis of Assisi is credited with the first nativity scene. What we think of as the Stable and wooden manger is his idea as he was trying to imitate with objects that people of his day could relate.
fisheaters.com/adventcribs.html

Now to the fundamentalist Christians and Mary. I collect Icons and love the symbolism of them, the best book written on the introduction of Iconography was written by a Methodist Minister named Russell hart, the book is called “The Icon Through Western Eyes.”
Many others keep paintings of the Holy Family in their homes as well. They may not venerate them but they do keep pictures. There are some protestants who would never pray a prayer to her but yet would have a picture of Mary and Jesus. Others do hold Mary in high regard. There are Anglican versions of the rosary as well as Lutheran and Methodist versions. This is why I say that there are seeds of the devotion there.

BTW one thing I noticed about the icons of Mary is that the ones containing Jesus all have her pointing to Jesus as the one of focus where the true worship should take place.

 

[benedictus2]

I’ve never claimed that.

Well, quite obviously you do. Otherwise, if you believe that the interpretation of the Catholic Church is authoritative, then you would be a Catholic. When you and the Catholic Church reach a fork on the road, and you go by your way of interpretation then that proclaims loudly that you believe your interpretation is more authoritative. That is why I called your religion Leannism.

The Holy Spirit is the support for my interpretation…

But that kind of position does not hold water. How do you know that the Holy Spirit supports your interpretation.

.and you’re correct when you state that it’s not in the history (Catholic church’s history) of Christendom…how could it be, since they are two different interpretations?

Well you are quite wrong there. Since the Catholic Church is the one Church that Christ established from the beginning, true Christian interpretation rests with the Church that He established which happens to be the Catholich Church.

You don’t. I’ve never said you had to accept ‘my’ interpretation?

Then let me put it this way. What makes you so sure that it is “your’ interpretation that you should follow?

Here’s an example: You’re trying to get to Point B. You’re new to the area. Someone who has lived in the area for years (and actually owns the area) tells you that to get to point B you have to go by road X, but you insist that the correct road is Y. How do you justify to yourself taking road Y? Intuition? Revelation? Crystal ball?

 

[benedictus2]

Leann,

I don’t think you know ‘Catholic’ interpretation, otherwise you wouldn’t be coming across like you are.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there.