Why is it wrong to love Mary?

[2ndGen]

**Catholics DO deal with it, and the only viable explanation of the first chapter of Rev 12 is that it refers to Mary.

First, the Church does not officially teach that Mary did not have pain in childbirth. That is a theological construct, not a church teaching per se.

Second, being pursued into the desert after the birth of her child can be seen as a direct link to Herod’s slaughter of the innocents, where an angel came to Joseph and told him to take his wife and child out of Bethlehem, and go to Egypt. You have to traverse the desert to get there, and it is no stretch of imagination to think that Herod’s lynch mob pursued the family as they were fleeing.

Third, to equate Mary with the Church in Rev. 12:5-6 doesn’t make any sense. It says that she gave birth to a son, a male child, who would rule the nations with an iron rod. If Mary is the Church, then it is the Church who gave birth to Christ, not the other way around, which is theologically absurd by any stretch of the imagination. Even if you equate this with Israel, it still is a stretch.

Fourth, that this woman does battle with a dragon is another analogy to Genesis and the serpent. And God protects her. And as He protects Her, He also protects the Church.

Only in Rev. 12:17 does it talk about Satan going off and waging war with the rest of her offspring, and then John tells us who that offspring is: “…those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.” And those offspring are the followers of Christ - the Church.**

**In officially Church-accepted appearances of Mary throughout the world, she manifests usually with a crown of golden stars on her head - a direct reference to the woman in Revelation 12. And in her appearance as Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico, not only did she have a crown of golden stars, but also the moon at her feet, and was “clothed with the sun.” Again, it is a direct reference to the woman in Revelation 12. Because of this association early on in the Church, “all generations” of Catholic Christians have called her ‘blessed’, as is described in the gospel of Luke. **

If one reads the Bible at face value, especially in this case, it becomes clear what it is referring to. There is no need to find all sorts of interpretations. Even in the revelation of John, there is common sense.

Feel free to refer to my thread for help with this…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215081

 

[area52]

area 52 you are the one with the misunderstanding re read the quote you answered to.then compare your reply.

Let me clarify what my quote “When my other Christian brothers/sisters ask me to pray for their petition (i.e. their sick child), I pray to Jesus that He would also hear the petitions that they ask me to pray for.”

What I meant by this is- I will also mention their petitions with my petitions.

"Father God, thank you for the blessing You have given me today. Thank you for the time you alow me to minister in this web site about who You trully be. How you gave us your son Jesus, that He died for us so that in Him alone we can have the gift of eternal life with You. Thank you Holy Spirit in using my hands in typing what you wanted them to know about Jesus, for You are witness to His glory. Thru Your living words written by Apostles and prophets who were inspired by You be the keys in unlocking their understanding of You.

The blessing you continue to pour out to me daily is overwhelming because You love me. You understand all of my needs and the needs of my brothers and sisters whom You called as your own. You bless us abundantly knowing what we need in this world. All the petitions we ask thru Your son Jesus, who is my Lord and Savior… Amen"

 

[2ndGen]

What I meant by this is- I will also mention their petitions with my petitions.

So, you mean that you can “mediate” on your brethren’s behalves, but The Saint’s cannot?

 

[fbl9]

hi all our Lord loved His dear mother, Luke2:51 most of all He was obediant of Her.after all as christian are we not supposed to follow the way of the Master.i doubt there is a christian who could have loved Jesus more than His own mother.what the church teachs about Mary comes from who Jesus is.

 

[Huguenot]

Huguenot;3267071:

Some Protestants worship God with snakes.
Of course, I’m not going to look at them and try to figure out all Protestant worship by their practices.

And those that do worship Mary (both Protestant and Catholics) do it outside fo the Doctrine of The Church. For Catholics, anyone who worships Mary gets excommunicated literally.

Again, the Protestant obsession with Mary saving…nobody ever said that “Mary saves”. Ever.

And Jesus is the only Mediator for judgement, but not for intercessory prayer (which is what Christians have done for thousands of years).

You pray everyday.

When you ask somebody for something, that is a prayer. Because there are different definition to the word prayer, one cannot say that it is wrong to pray to Mary. Prayer literally means “request” or to ask something of someone.

If one asks their Pastor to pray for them, they are literally “praying” to that Pastor. There are several types of prayer as well: intercessory (like when you pray “for” someone else), meditative, worship (which is only due unto God) and thanksgiving.

Right now, the Saints in Heaven are praying.

Why? They don’t need anything. They don’t need to contemplate the Word of God, their already one “with” God, they don’t have to pray in worship or thanksgiving because they are “with” God and can do it in HIs presence directly. So that leaves intercession. They are praying for us.

How do they know “what” to pray for?

I’ve seen a report ( on TV ) about a Protestant group who worship God with snakes … if you read my message well, you will notice that I said that SOME Catholics do worship Mary, I didn’t generalize as you seem to think I did …
I even wrote the word “some” in capital letters to make it clear I didn’t “generalize” …
As for “Mary saves” ; I never wrote that Catholics think that Mary saves, but there is an “ambiguous message” on this thread, something like "Jesus and Mary save us ! " it gives the impression that the person who wrote it thinks both Mary and Jesus can save …but since I wasn’t sure of what the writer of this message meant I didn’t comment on it …
Well for me asking somebody to do something for me ( like “pass me the salt” for instance ) doesn’t mean I’m praying him …
For me it is wrong to pray Mary or another deceded person because in a way it is communicating with the dead …

 

[Huguenot]

Holy Mary Mother of God , pray for us sinners now and and the hour of death. Amen.

I love the Blessed Mother and I will defend Her til I die.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/29/20061219085331!Modern-Knight.jpg

Photographer: David Ball

www.DavidBall.net

Waow my beautiful knight in shining armour … can I elope with you ???

 

[Huguenot]

area52;3267538:

That’s not exactly true…you ask each other to pray for each other. That’s asking for someone else to “intercede” on your behalf to Christ.

There is no difference.

You “only” ask common sinful men to pray for you.

We ask common sinful men “and” The Holy Saint’s in Heaven to pray for us (who are already praying for us in Rev 5:8/8:3).

Think about it, the Word of God teaches us that “the prayers of a just man availeth much”. Who is more “just” than those deemed worthy of being in Heaven “before” the final judgement?

No human being has as much “justification” with God than The Saints…besides, it literally pleases God when we pray for each other and intercede on each other’s behalfs.

When scripture states that there is only one mediator between man and God, it’s not talking about intercessory prayer. It’s talking about salvation.

But guess what, none of us “have to” ask anybody else to pray for us. We can pray to God without the help of others.

However, if you went to court for something, would’nt you want to have as many character references as you could put together and who would you rather have speaking on your behalf to the judge?

Thieves, liers, fornicators?

Or virtuous, pious, heroes of Christianity?

I would certainly not rely on the former alone, but would definately want the latter to speak to God on my behalf when I need my brethren on earth and in heaven.

I admire your devotion to Christ alone.

strange, I don’t remember having written this message, the English used is too good for me …

 

[Huguenot]

Muslims love Mary and show greater honor to her than do the protestants.

I’m not sure about that … we also respect Mary, but we don’t have a “sentimental” relationship with her as Catholics do … neither do we have a “sentimental” relationship with Isaiah or Paul for instance …
Do you ?

 

[peary]

I’m not sure about that … we also respect Mary, but we don’t have a “sentimental” relationship with her as Catholics do … neither do we have a “sentimental” relationship with Isaiah or Paul for instance …
Do you ?

That depends on what you mean by ‘sentimental’. It is more of the love as one has for his or her mother. That may sound strange, but that is how many Catholic Christians ‘feel’ about Mary. And Catholic Christians who feel that way about Mary also feel that way about Jesus and understand what it means by His love. I don’t need a sentimental relationship with Isaiah or Paul because their role in the Church is different. However, some Catholic Christians also have a relationship with a particular saint where it has been personal along with Christ. Think of it as a close friendship that does transcend this world. But we also know that worship belongs to God and God alone.

 

[Huguenot]

That depends on what you mean by ‘sentimental’. It is more of the love as one has for his or her mother. That may sound strange, but that is how many Catholic Christians ‘feel’ about Mary. And Catholic Christians who feel that way about Mary also feel that way about Jesus and understand what it means by His love. I don’t need a sentimental relationship with Isaiah or Paul because their role in the Church is different. However, some Catholic Christians also have a relationship with a particular saint where it has been personal along with Christ. Think of it as a close friendship that does transcend this world. But we also know that worship belongs to God and God alone.

Well we consider that Mary had her role in the church just like Paul and Isaiah did …
but since Catholics consider her as the mother of all believers, your “sentimental” relationship with her is logical …
I would say I feel that way about Jesus, but not about Mary, even if I respect her ( you can read my first message about the “letter written to Mary” by one of the participants … )

 

[peary]

Well we consider that Mary had her role in the church just like Paul and Isaiah did …
but since Catholics consider her as the mother of all believers, your “sentimental” relationship with her is logical …
I would say I feel that way about Jesus, but not about Mary, even if I respect her ( you can read my first message about the “letter written to Mary” by one of the participants … )

**I find your use of the past tense an interesting insight - “…we consider that Mary had her role in the church just like Paul and Isaiah did…” I don’t think the Church has ever stopped believing for one moment that either Paul or Isaiah’s role has been completed. Through their writings and through the Spirit their roles continue, bringing the word of God to the world through scripture. Much in the same way, Mary’s role, though completed here on earth, continues to be recognized and felt in the Church because she is mother of the Church. If the Church is the mystical body of Christ, then she is our mother because it is we who make up the body of Christ on earth. That has always been the Church’s understanding, in both east and west.

It probably depends on one’s psychology and how he or she approaches the tenets of his or her faith and religion. Sometimes, a person will find a surrogate mother in Mary, or an extension of his or her own ideal of what consitutes motherhood. The same is true of any of the saints that we honor and to whom we have a particular devotion, perhaps a father or brother figure, etc. And this is fine. They all lead to Christ, maybe not in the way you can comprehend, but they do. And Scripture sums it all up for us in her command to the servants at the wedding feast at Cana: “Do whatever He tells you to do.” That is how She brings us to her Son, and has been a definite instruction to the rest of believers for over two-thousand years.**

 

[2ndGen]

Waow my beautiful knight in shining armour … can I elope with you ???

But ov cuss my chari!

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3267417:

I’ve seen a report ( on TV ) about a Protestant group who worship God with snakes … if you read my message well, you will notice that I said that SOME Catholics do worship Mary, I didn’t generalize as you seem to think I did …
I even wrote the word “some” in capital letters to make it clear I didn’t “generalize” …
As for “Mary saves” ; I never wrote that Catholics think that Mary saves, but there is an “ambiguous message” on this thread, something like "Jesus and Mary save us ! " it gives the impression that the person who wrote it thinks both Mary and Jesus can save …but since I wasn’t sure of what the writer of this message meant I didn’t comment on it …
Well for me asking somebody to do something for me ( like “pass me the salt” for instance ) doesn’t mean I’m praying him …
For me it is wrong to pray Mary or another deceded person because in a way it is communicating with the dead …

I could understand your point of view, but is it a scriptural point of view?

Does the bible say that it is wrong to pray to the deaceased?

Jesus “communicated” with the “dead” when He conversed with Moses and Elijah in His transfiguration did’nt He?

 

[area52]

Thanks 2ndGen.

If I may, I would also like to add this quote in order to reinforce what we are saying .

Pius IX, Bull Ineffabilis Deus

We do not deny that the distribution of these gifts (salvation by redemption) belongs by strict and proper right to Christ. They are the fruit He alone acquired for us by His Death. He is in His own right the Mediator between God and man. However, that community of suffering and sorrow between the Mother and her Son (which we have already described) has merited the venerable Virgin to be ‘with her only -begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world’ (Pius IX, Bull Ineffabilis Deus). Christ, therefore, is the source, ‘and of his fullness we have all received’ (Jn 1:16). ‘From him the whole body (being closely joined and knit together through every joint of the system…) derives its increase to the building up of itself in love’ (Eph 4:16). Mary, however, as St Bernard rightly observes, is ‘the channel’ or the neck which unites the Body to the Head and through which the Head sends power and a strength into the Body. ‘For she is the neck of our Head, through which all spiritual gifts are communicated to His Body’ (St Bernardine of Siena). This should make it clear that we are certainly very far from attributing to the Virgin the power of producing supernatural grace. Only God can do that. However, she surpasses all creatures in holiness and in the degree of her union with Christ. She was chosen by Christ to be his associate in the work of human salvation. She has therefore, merited for us congruously (de congruo), as they say, what Christ has merited for us in strict justice (de condigno). She is the principal minister of the graces to be distributed. He has 'taken his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (Heb 1:13) and Mary as Queen stands at his right hand. ‘She is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger. Under her guidance, patronage, kindness and protection nothing is to be feared or despaired.’ (Pius IX, Bull Ineffabilis Deus).

From the statement above- Mary is ‘the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world’. More powerful than Jesus, ‘the Mediator’ only.

Also, is it saying that without the neck (Mary) the grace of God will not flow to the body (church)?

How do you explain these verses?

[Eph 2:8] For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–
[Eph 2:9] not by works, so that no one can boast.
[Jhn 1:12] Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God–
[Jhn 3:16] “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
[Jhn 14:6] Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

**God’s grace of eternal life is freely given to those who believed on Jesus alone. If Mary was required, John would not have said ‘in him’. **

[Jhn 3:31] “The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.

Jesus said that He is above all (John3:31). Mary who is from earth belong to the earth and speaks as one from the earth.

Does the verses above required the belief in Mary before God’s grace be given to the one who believed in Jesus?

 

[2ndGen]

From the statement above- Mary is ‘the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world’. More powerful than Jesus, ‘the Mediator’ only.

Jesus can’t be a mediatrix!

He’s a man!

Only a woman can be a mediatrix (a woman that meditates)!

 

[area52]

Jesus can’t be a mediatrix!

He’s a man!

Only a woman can be a mediatrix (a woman that meditates)!

You are missing the point. You make **Mary more powerful **than Jesus. You are blinded by your arrogance.

You are saying that Jesus can not be a mediator?

Why don’t you read the verse that I posted #510 and let me know if you can find hint that Mary is required for receiving the grace from God.

[1Cr 1:27] But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

Dictionary define the word: Mediator

one who intervenes between two persons who are at variance, with a view to reconcile them. This word is not found in the Old Testament; but the idea it expresses is found in Job 9:33, in the word “daysman” (q.v.), marg., “umpire.” This word is used in the New Testament to denote simply an internuncius, an ambassador, one who acts as a medium of communication between two contracting parties. In this sense Moses is called a mediator in Gal. 3:19. **Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24). **He makes reconciliation between God and man by his all-perfect atoning sacrifice. Such a mediator must be at once divine and human, divine, that his obedience and his sufferings might possess infinite worth, and that he might possess infinite wisdom and knowlege and power to direct all things in the kingdoms of providence and grace which are committed to his hands (Matt. 28:18; John 5:22, 25, 26, 27); and human, that in his work he might represent man, and be capable of rendering obedience to the law and satisfying the claims of justice (Heb. 2:17, 18; 4:15, 16), and that in his glorified humanity he might be the head of a glorified Church (Rom. 8:29). This office involves the three functions of prophet, priest, and king, all of which are discharged by Christ both in his estate of humiliation and exaltation. These functions are so inherent in the one office that the quality appertaining to each gives character to every mediatorial act. They are never separated in the exercise of the office of mediator.

 

[2ndGen]

You are missing the point. You make **Mary more powerful **

 

[area52]

2ndGen:

“Rome has spoken; the case is closed”

If you follow the road built by Rome, I would recommend that you check if the road is solid of its foundations or if it is leading you to destruction. Search other sources that will either confirm or refute the church teaching. I pray that you open the eyes that God gave you to read and understand His written words for it is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.

Mat 7:26] But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
Mat 7:27] The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
2Ti 3:16] All Scripture is God‑breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17] so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Area52, Jesus is a davidic king, correct?

This makes Mary the queen, the mother of the king is the davidic queen

Christ is also the fulfillment of the Davidic Messiah-King that was promised to David by God. David’s kingdom is everlasting with the ascension of Christ to the Davidic throne. From Jesus Christ as the King in the line of David, we can understand Mary’s title of Queen from the Davidic Queen Mother tradition. In the Kingdom of David, the King’s mother was always crowned as Queen, not his wife. The Queen Mother was known as the Gebirah or “Great Lady.” (Mary’s name means “Lady” is hebrew) However, it wasn’t merely an honorary title. It was an office that came with great authority and power. **She was an advocate for the people who interceded on their behalf and a trusted counselor to the king. **

In the Davidic kingdom, it was the mother of the king who ruled as queen, not the king’s wife. **She shared in the king’s rule over the kingdom **and was, in fact, one of the most powerful persons in the kingdom. Within the biblical worldview of the Davidic kingdom, the mother of the king and queenship went hand-in-hand

Mary’s Queenship is one of service, rather than power. As Christ came to serve and submits fully to the will of the Father, so too does Mary. "For if the word of God performs miracles and gives grace through the Humanity He has assumed, if He employs the Sacraments and His Saints as instruments for the salvation of souls, why should He not use His mother’s office and efforts to bring us the fruits of the Redemption

motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=963&Itemid=80

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen:

If you follow the road built by Rome, I would recommend that you check if the road is solid of its foundations or if it is leading you to destruction. Search other sources that will either confirm or refute the church teaching. I pray that you open the eyes that God gave you to read and understand His written words for it is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.

Mat 7:26] But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
Mat 7:27] The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
2Ti 3:16] All Scripture is God‑breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17] so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Wow…it was very “convenient” of you to leave out the first 1/2 of that passage you chose to quote which talks about The Church (house) built upon Peter (rock);

Matthew 7:
24
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

The verse you used speaks about churches (houses) built upon the sand or soil (which is what man is made of…men like Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, etc…).

That is the prophecy of how The Cahtolic Church has since it’s inception by Christ (built upon Peter The Rock in Matthew 16) has withstood the failed attempts by Satan to destroy her (the reformation that never came to happen and which led to division, the anti-popes, the attacks of the world, etc…).

The house (church) built upon men aka “sand” when attacked by dissention and disagreement with no visible leader to settle her disputes, (such as those churches started by Protestantism that never existed in Jesus time) collapsed into many pieces (33,000+ different denominations with different beliefs and different leaders).

That was a bad fragement of a passage to use.

Maybe your own eyes were closed when you chose to write what you wrote to me causing you to completely miss that prophecy about how men would attack Jesus Church (the only one built upon Peter, The Rock).