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Righteousone
Guest
No, even the sants were sinners, but they were called to Christ by Christ for a reason. I’d say that is perfect enough.
Another example would be Mary, or the Blessed Mother as I like to call her.
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Another example would be Mary, or the Blessed Mother as I like to call her.
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Righteousone
Guest
In Ephesians, Paul was saying everyone could be a saint. Doesn’t say everyone is a saint.
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justasking4
Guest
Righteousone;3265429]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Paul in Ephesians 1:1 calls them saints. Am i to believe that they loved perfectly and without sin?
Righteousone
In Ephesians, Paul was saying everyone could be a saint. Doesn’t say everyone is a saint.
Here is the passage that i was referring to:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,**To the saints who are at Ephesus **and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Paul is clear that he is referring the saints there as saints and not saying they “could be” but actually are saints.
Originally Posted by justasking4
Paul in Ephesians 1:1 calls them saints. Am i to believe that they loved perfectly and without sin?
Righteousone
In Ephesians, Paul was saying everyone could be a saint. Doesn’t say everyone is a saint.
Here is the passage that i was referring to:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,**To the saints who are at Ephesus **and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Paul is clear that he is referring the saints there as saints and not saying they “could be” but actually are saints.
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2ndGen
Guest
There’s that Protestant obsession with Mary and salvation.
The only time I ever talk about Mary and salvation is with Protestants who get backed into a corner.
One of their favorite diversions is “But only Jesus Saves! Mary can’t save us!” Which is never the topic of a conversation coming from a Catholic. (That and the good ol’ “The only thing that matters is that our Lord Jesus Christ came and died on the cross for us and we are washed in His blood!”…again, something else a Catholic will never debate a Protestant on that they always seem to bring up when they are asked questions that they cannot answer).
What Mary did for us (by bringing forth Jesus Christ who is our eternal life through here womb) is what she contributed to our salvation…something no other human being can claim.
Our salvation (Jesus Christ) came through her womb.
Our eternal life (Jesus Christ) came through her womb.
She brought us “Life” (Jesus Christ).
She is our mother.
That is “if” you believe in Jesus Christ.
(Reveations 12:17)
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Flos_Campi
Guest
Thanks 2ndGen.
If I may, I would also like to add this quote in order to reinforce what we are saying .
Pius IX, Bull Ineffabilis Deus
We do not deny that the distribution of these gifts (salvation by redemption) belongs by strict and proper right to Christ. They are the fruit He alone acquired for us by His Death. He is in His own right the Mediator between God and man. However, that community of suffering and sorrow between the Mother and her Son (which we have already described) has merited the venerable Virgin to be ‘with her only -begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world’ (Pius IX, Bull Ineffabilis Deus). Christ, therefore, is the source, ‘and of his fullness we have all received’ (Jn 1:16). ‘From him the whole body (being closely joined and knit together through every joint of the system…) derives its increase to the building up of itself in love’ (Eph 4:16). Mary, however, as St Bernard rightly observes, is ‘the channel’ or the neck which unites the Body to the Head and through which the Head sends power and a strength into the Body. ‘For she is the neck of our Head, through which all spiritual gifts are communicated to His Body’ (St Bernardine of Siena). This should make it clear that we are certainly very far from attributing to the Virgin the power of producing supernatural grace. Only God can do that. However, she surpasses all creatures in holiness and in the degree of her union with Christ. She was chosen by Christ to be his associate in the work of human salvation. She has therefore, merited for us congruously (de congruo), as they say, what Christ has merited for us in strict justice (de condigno). She is the principal minister of the graces to be distributed. He has 'taken his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (Heb 1:13) and Mary as Queen stands at his right hand. ‘She is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger. Under her guidance, patronage, kindness and protection nothing is to be feared or despaired.’ (Pius IX, Bull Ineffabilis Deus)
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If I may, I would also like to add this quote in order to reinforce what we are saying .
Pius IX, Bull Ineffabilis Deus
We do not deny that the distribution of these gifts (salvation by redemption) belongs by strict and proper right to Christ. They are the fruit He alone acquired for us by His Death. He is in His own right the Mediator between God and man. However, that community of suffering and sorrow between the Mother and her Son (which we have already described) has merited the venerable Virgin to be ‘with her only -begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world’ (Pius IX, Bull Ineffabilis Deus). Christ, therefore, is the source, ‘and of his fullness we have all received’ (Jn 1:16). ‘From him the whole body (being closely joined and knit together through every joint of the system…) derives its increase to the building up of itself in love’ (Eph 4:16). Mary, however, as St Bernard rightly observes, is ‘the channel’ or the neck which unites the Body to the Head and through which the Head sends power and a strength into the Body. ‘For she is the neck of our Head, through which all spiritual gifts are communicated to His Body’ (St Bernardine of Siena). This should make it clear that we are certainly very far from attributing to the Virgin the power of producing supernatural grace. Only God can do that. However, she surpasses all creatures in holiness and in the degree of her union with Christ. She was chosen by Christ to be his associate in the work of human salvation. She has therefore, merited for us congruously (de congruo), as they say, what Christ has merited for us in strict justice (de condigno). She is the principal minister of the graces to be distributed. He has 'taken his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (Heb 1:13) and Mary as Queen stands at his right hand. ‘She is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger. Under her guidance, patronage, kindness and protection nothing is to be feared or despaired.’ (Pius IX, Bull Ineffabilis Deus)
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guanophore
Guest
Gen 3:16
6 To the woman he said,
“I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children,
yet your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”
If Mary did not suffer the consequence of Original Sin, then why would her pain be multiplied in childbearing? Also, her desire was only for her Spouse,the Holy Spirit, to whom she sacrificed herself completely - “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to Your Word”.
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Huguenot
Guest
Well SOME Catholics DO worship Mary, at least here in France, but I know that if they put her on the same level as God it doesn’t correspond to the official Catholic doctrine …( and sometimes, seen “from outside”, it is difficult for us to make the difference : sometimes we see what you are doing but we don’t necessarily understand why or what it really means to you, which can lead to misunderstandings , I am conscious of that )
but since the New Testament says that Jesus is the only mediator between man and God, that no one comes to the Father but by him, that there is no other name give by which we can be saved …
and since Paul, when he mentions prayer, sometimes mentions the fact of praying God ( at least once "God the Father through Jesus Christ ") or just mention “praying” without any other precision, we feel it’s not right to address prayers to somebody else than to God …( we don’t pray Mary but we don’t pray other “saints” either )…
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Huguenot
Guest
but we do make a difference between those who are still on earth and those who aren’t…
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2ndGen
Guest
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2ndGen
Guest
Outstanding quote to use!
Now, my contention is that Mary suffered great pains while giving birth are based on realistic and reasonable assertions that she was a virgin who’s womb had never been touched.
It’s reasonable for you to go in the opposite direction with in that because she was sinless, her consequence in birthing Christ would be in the opposite of the born sinners.
Now, your quote along with what I read by Pius IX brought to mind Mary’s own Passion in bringing Jesus to the world (the persecution by those in authority, fleeing the sentence of death for Christ,
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peary
Guest
Muslims love Mary and show greater honor to her than do the protestants.
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2ndGen
Guest
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2ndGen
Guest
My thread “Loving Mary” shows how Muslims can’t understand why Protestants don’t love her as much as Catholics and they do.
They cannot figure it out. It boggles them. Even they dont’ believe in the divinity of Christ, they certainly believe in Mary’s Perpetural Virginity, in her state of sinlessness from before birth, in her being the highest form of humanity created by God…all universal Christian beliefs.
It’s the Protestants who don’t believe in Mary’s Perpetural Virginity, in her state of sinlessness from before birth, in her being the highest form of humanity created by God.
That is, Protestants today. The Protestant church fathers believed in those things that Catholics and Muslims believe in.
mariology.com/sections/reformers.html
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2ndGen
Guest
Why?
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area52
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fbl9
Guest
Hi,
I’m a protestant. When I pray, I pray to Jesus that He would hear my petition and when I finished my prayers, I believed with all my heart that He will grant my prayers in His time.
When my other Christian brothers/sisters ask me to pray for their petition (i.e. their sick child), I pray to Jesus that He would also hear the petitions that they ask me to pray for.
The difference is that we do not ask anyone but Jesus.
hi area 52 : the way your post is written it reads like you are saying you are Jesus.
I’m a protestant. When I pray, I pray to Jesus that He would hear my petition and when I finished my prayers, I believed with all my heart that He will grant my prayers in His time.
When my other Christian brothers/sisters ask me to pray for their petition (i.e. their sick child), I pray to Jesus that He would also hear the petitions that they ask me to pray for.
The difference is that we do not ask anyone but Jesus.
hi area 52 : the way your post is written it reads like you are saying you are Jesus.
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area52
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fbl9
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area 52 you are the one with the misunderstanding re read the quote you answered to.then compare your reply.
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peary
Guest
**Catholics DO deal with it, and the only viable explanation of the first chapter of Rev 12 is that it refers to Mary.
First, the Church does not officially teach that Mary did not have pain in childbirth. That is a theological construct, not a church teaching per se.
Second, being pursued into the desert after the birth of her child can be seen as a direct link to Herod’s slaughter of the innocents, where an angel came to Joseph and told him to take his wife and child out of Bethlehem, and go to Egypt. You have to traverse the desert to get there, and it is no stretch of imagination to think that Herod’s lynch mob pursued the family as they were fleeing.
Third, to equate Mary with the Church in Rev. 12:5-6 doesn’t make any sense. It says that she gave birth to a son, a male child, who would rule the nations with an iron rod. If Mary is the Church, then it is the Church who gave birth to Christ, not the other way around, which is theologically absurd by any stretch of the imagination. Even if you equate this with Israel, it still is a stretch.
Fourth, that this woman does battle with a dragon is another analogy to Genesis and the serpent. And God protects her. And as He protects Her, He also protects the Church.
Only in Rev. 12:17 does it talk about Satan going off and waging war with the rest of her offspring, and then John tells us who that offspring is: “…those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.” And those offspring are the followers of Christ - the Church.**
**In officially Church-accepted appearances of Mary throughout the world, she manifests usually with a crown of golden stars on her head - a direct reference to the woman in Revelation 12. And in her appearance as Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico, not only did she have a crown of golden stars, but also the moon at her feet, and was “clothed with the sun.” Again, it is a direct reference to the woman in Revelation 12. Because of this association early on in the Church, “all generations” of Catholic Christians have called her ‘blessed’, as is described in the gospel of Luke. **
If one reads the Bible at face value, especially in this case, it becomes clear what it is referring to. There is no need to find all sorts of interpretations. Even in the revelation of John, there is common sense.
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2ndGen
Guest
Huguenot;3267082:
That’s not exactly true…you ask each other to pray for each other. That’s asking for someone else to “intercede” on your behalf to Christ.
There is no difference.
You “only” ask common sinful men to pray for you.
We ask common sinful men “and” The Holy Saint’s in Heaven to pray for us (who are already praying for us in Rev 5:8/8:3).
Think about it, the Word of God teaches us that “the prayers of a just man availeth much”. Who is more “just” than those deemed worthy of being in Heaven “before” the final judgement?
No human being has as much “justification” with God than The Saints…besides, it literally pleases God when we pray for each other and intercede on each other’s behalfs.
When scripture states that there is only one mediator between man and God, it’s not talking about intercessory prayer. It’s talking about salvation.
But guess what, none of us “have to” ask anybody else to pray for us. We can pray to God without the help of others.
However, if you went to court for something, would’nt you want to have as many character references as you could put together and who would you rather have speaking on your behalf to the judge?
Thieves, liers, fornicators?
Or virtuous, pious, heroes of Christianity?
I would certainly not rely on the former alone, but would definately want the latter to speak to God on my behalf when I need my brethren on earth and in heaven.
I admire your devotion to Christ alone.
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