Why is it wrong to love Mary?

[Roy5]

** The aversion to honoring Mary began in the protestant psyche when there began an aversion to motherhood and the sanctity of human life and everything associated with it, unfortunately. This was revealed with the protestant acceptance of birth control, of artificial contraception, and with abortion. What was once holy and honorable in the sight of God is now mocked and attacked. And in my experience, I have found that those with real issues with regard to honoring Mary and asking for Her intercession through Christ have real issues with, if not their own relationship with their mothers, but of their own motherhood and guilt themselves.**

This assertion is nonsense. A few facts. 

 (1)  USA Protestants opposed and still oppose abortion in percentages equal to Catholics. In which states is there the greatest support of abortion? Northeast, where Catholicism is strongest. In which states is abortion most opposed? South and midwest where Protestantism is the majority faith. 

 (2) Look of Congress. Who are the most liberal Senators on this issue? And what is their religious affiliation?

 (3)  It is true that Protestants accept birth control, responsible family planning. While Catholicism condemns it, surveys have shown that Catholics overwhelmingly approve of it and use it.

  This has nothing to do with respect for Mary. Silly argument.

 

[peary]

Lets take this a step at a time. Where in the passage you quote in John 14 does Jesus say anything about praying to Mary for anything?
Where does it say anything in the entire Scripture where we are exhorted to pray to Mary?

This is what you need to show if you are claiming to take Christ at His word. Remember His word is found only in Scripture.

Not so. What i’m looking for is your support for the assertion that those who have died can hear your prayers here. Not only your audible prayers but your silent non audible prayers. Where do the Scriptures teach such a thing?

What did Jesus mean when He said this? How was it fulfilled in the NT?

What i don’t see is any justification from the scriptures to pray to those who have died and have no part in this world.

This would be an excellent topic to discuss somewhere else.

This maybe true for some but not me. I seek to follow what the Scriptures teach and compare all teachings and spiritual truth claims with it. In regards to the marian doctrines they are not found in the scriptures.

**I have no time to debate protestants in this forum. This is a Catholic forum for Catholics who want to share their Faith with each other and with those who sincerely want to learn about what the Catholic Church teaches, not to argue or quibble over obscure biblical verses or “bible alone”. That’s ridiculous. If you need answers, you can always go to www.catholic.com or www.scripturecatholic.com to find your answers. I’ve said what I’ve said. Amen. **

 

[guanophore]

Does it refer to her as God? No.
Again, Mary is the woman who is at the center of our redemption, and she becomes the center of our redemption through Christ our Savior.
So, in that respect, yes, the hymn is appropriate to honor her.

No. Why do you? Do you believe God does not share His power of deliverance with men?

Call her, trust her lovingly.
When the tempest rages round tyhee,
She will calm the troubled sea?

That she gives “All the gifts she gives to men”?

Does Mary have power to do all these things?

Only insomuch that God allows it. Does it make you jealous that He would give gifts to His mother that he did not give to you?

 

[guanophore]

Do you?

No, I cannot say that, at the current level of my spiritual development, that this hymn commends itself to me.

Not really.

Then the problem you are having with Mary is not really about Mary at all, but that your concept of God is too small, and you have an inadequate understanding of His plan for mankind.

I think that He is referring not to the miracles that some of the apostles would do but the preaching of the gospel message that would result in saving of the souls of many men and women. This is the “greater things” that would result.

The two are not separated from one another. Scripture plainly states that the gits of the HS will follow those that believe.

 

[guanophore]

But that is where the problem comes in. To us, praying (and by praying I mean, bowing your head and talking to someone not physically in front of you. I don’t accept the whole “praying just means asking” there is more to it when you bow your head and pray, you don’t do that with friends and family) IS WORSHIP.

No. The position of one’s head is not what defines worship, but the position of one’s heart. If you don’t want to accept the “praying is just asking” that is your perogative, but that does not undo the facts. We are asking someone who has already shed the veil of flesh to intercede for us. It is a request for intercession. We do that with family too.

It is coming before the Almighty and only GOD deserves this act. Jesus taught us how to pray and HE never indicated that it should be to anyone other than God.

I agree with this definiition of worship. It is not possible to “worship” by accident. It requires intention. We do not intend to worship Mary, but to request her prayers on our behalf. Only God deserves worship.

That is why there is a difference of opinion between protestants and catholics.

It sounds to me more like a misunderstanding. You mistakenly think something is happening that is not.

 

[guanophore]

**The Catholic Church teaches and has ALWAYS taught that Mary receives her spiritual gifts and charism from the Holy Spirit, as we do. It is Christ working in and through her that protects us under the mantle of her motherhood.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do;** because I go to the Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son” (John 14:12,13).

You don’t take Christ at His word, do you?

The problem is that there is no such teaching for this in the NT.

Please explain why you think the above ideas are not in the NT.

How could the apostles (who were closes to Christ and knew Mary personally) be totally unaware of such a truth?

You just admitted in another post that we have know way of knowing what Paul taught DAILY for two years at Tyrannus.

In saying this, you admit that not all of what the Apostles taught is found in scripture.

Therefore, you cannot say that any of the Apostles were “unaware” of these things, just because you cannot see them in your Bible.

The quote you use says nothing about appealing to Mary for anything. In fact this passage demonstrates clearly why there is no need to appeal to Mary for anything since Jesus Himself is our High Priest and advocate before the Father.

Do you not believe that Jesus allows us to partake in the ministry of reconciliation?

 

[guanophore]

The aversion to honoring Mary began in the protestant psyche when there began an aversion to motherhood and the sanctity of human life and everything associated with it, unfortunately. This was revealed with the protestant acceptance of birth control, of artificial contraception, and with abortion. What was once holy and honorable in the sight of God is now mocked and attacked. And in my experience, I have found that those with real issues with regard to honoring Mary and asking for Her intercession through Christ have real issues with, if not their own relationship with their mothers, but of their own motherhood and guilt themselves.

Wow. I never thought about this, but it is really true! I had figured out the part about having a poor relationship with a mother figure, but had not realized that the deposing of Mary co-incides with the acceptance of contraception. Thank you for that insight.

 

[Singinbeauty]

No. The position of one’s head is not what defines worship, but the position of one’s heart. If you don’t want to accept the “praying is just asking” that is your perogative, but that does not undo the facts. We are asking someone who has already shed the veil of flesh to intercede for us. It is a request for intercession. We do that with family too.

So, your family member who lives down the street… you get on your knees, bow your head, and pray to them? I didn’t think so. I have heard people pray “Mother Mary, SAVE ME!” Doesn’t seem like intercession but a request for HER to do save them, not go to God and request that He do it. I think even one of the popes did this when he was shot… Interesting since Mary couldn’t have done anything. Why don’t they go straight to God when God is the one who can save them?

Praying is humbly entering the presence of the Almighty God and should not be considered as ‘just asking’. This cheapens it. You are coming in contact with GOD. Not just the idea of Him, it IS Him. I get goosebumps when this happens. It is a conversation with the One who created us. When I bow my head it is not just a position, it is an act of humbleness and respect. It is showing Him that I do recognize the importance of what is happening when I talk to Him. And it isn’t always to ‘ask’ something of Him. Sometimes I tell Him about what I am going through, sometimes it is about what someone else is going through, and sometimes it is just to tell Him about my day.

Why go to one of God’s creation when you can go straight to Him?

Christ certainly told us to pray to GOD, no where that I have seen did He state that you were to go to anyone but HIM.

I agree with this definiition of worship. It is not possible to “worship” by accident. It requires intention. We do not intend to worship Mary, but to request her prayers on our behalf. Only God deserves worship.

And prayer IS worship. I pay great attention to the definition:

*to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving *

So forgive me for not taking it as lightly as ‘just asking’.

It sounds to me more like a misunderstanding. You mistakenly think something is happening that is not.

Or maybe you have been conditioned to believe something and ignore the truth… Who knows. But I do know that until I, in my body - heart - and soul believe that praying is not worshipping, I won’t do it with anyone BUT God.

 

[guanophore]

This is what you need to show if you are claiming to take Christ at His word. Remember His word is found only in Scripture.

No, ja4, this is not what anyone needs to do except you. In fact, I would suggest that you don’t need to do it either! If you wish to limit yourself to one part of Divine Revelation, that is your perogative, but please don’t attempt to press this error upon us. That is not the purpose of the forum. This is not a venue for you to evangelize Catholics to your Sola Scriptura. The purpose of the forum is to answer questions about Catholicism.

Not so. What i’m looking for is your support for the assertion that those who have died can hear your prayers here. Not only your audible prayers but your silent non audible prayers. Where do the Scriptures teach such a thing?

Why don’t you post this question over on the Communion of Saints thread? It is off topic here.

What did Jesus mean when He said this? How was it fulfilled in the NT?

This is off topic here too, unless one is to point out that He is now fulfilling it through the ministry of His mother throughout the world, at places such as Fatima and Lourdes.

What i don’t see is any justification from the scriptures to pray to those who have died and have no part in this world.

ja4, the fact that you cannot see certain things in scripture does not mean they are not there. You don’t accept the Apostolic Teaching on the Communion of Saints. Since you reject this Apostolic Teaching, it will be nearly impossible for you to find evidence supporting it.

This would be an excellent topic to discuss somewhere else.

On the contrary, it is absolutely appropriate to this thread. It constitutes a large part of the puzzle as to why so many don’t love Mary.

This maybe true for some but not me. I seek to follow what the Scriptures teach and compare all teachings and spiritual truth claims with it. In regards to the marian doctrines they are not found in the scriptures.

This may be, but there are other spiritual things taught that you don’t see in scripture either, but they don’t seem to bother you as much as this one. That points to something very personal. Early abandonment or abuse by a mother figure, perhaps.

 

[guanophore]

 (3)  It is true that Protestants accept birth control, responsible family planning. While Catholicism condemns it, surveys have shown that Catholics overwhelmingly approve of it and use it.

  This has nothing to do with respect for Mary. Silly argument.

The Catholic Church absolutely supports responsible family planning. Just not at the expense of innocent human life.

It has everything to do with respect for Mary, as it relates to respect of motherhood, and the sanctity of the role of the mother in the Church.

 

[fbl9]

book of Proverbs 10:7 memory of the just will be blessed.

…the bible states memory of the just will be blesed.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

WHY DID ST. PAUL IGNORE MARY?

Yeah, Roy5, and

Why did St Paul ignore Faith without Works?

and

Why did St Paul ignore Sola Scriptura?

and

Why did St Paul ignore Once Saved Always Saved?

Robert

 

[Huguenot]

I have no time to debate protestants in this forum. This is a Catholic forum for Catholics who want to share their Faith with each other and with those who sincerely want to learn about what the Catholic Church teaches, not to argue or quibble over obscure biblical verses or “bible alone”. That’s ridiculous. If you need answers, you can always go to www.catholic.com or www.scripturecatholic.com to find your answers. I’ve said what I’ve said. Amen.

But THIS part of the forum is called “non-Catholic religions”,so you can expect non-Catholics to “come” and discuss here, that is what this part of the forum is meant for, isn’t it ???:bounce:

 

[Stephen_C]

So, your family member who lives down the street… you get on your knees, bow your head, and pray to them? I didn’t think so. I have heard people pray “Mother Mary, SAVE ME!” Doesn’t seem like intercession but a request for HER to do save them, not go to God and request that He do it. I think even one of the popes did this when he was shot… Interesting since Mary couldn’t have done anything. Why don’t they go straight to God when God is the one who can save them?

Praying is humbly entering the presence of the Almighty God and should not be considered as ‘just asking’. This cheapens it. You are coming in contact with GOD. Not just the idea of Him, it IS Him. I get goosebumps when this happens. It is a conversation with the One who created us. When I bow my head it is not just a position, it is an act of humbleness and respect. It is showing Him that I do recognize the importance of what is happening when I talk to Him. And it isn’t always to ‘ask’ something of Him. Sometimes I tell Him about what I am going through, sometimes it is about what someone else is going through, and sometimes it is just to tell Him about my day.

Why go to one of God’s creation when you can go straight to Him?

Christ certainly told us to pray to GOD, no where that I have seen did He state that you were to go to anyone but HIM.

And prayer IS worship. I pay great attention to the definition:

*to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving *

So forgive me for not taking it as lightly as ‘just asking’.

Or maybe you have been conditioned to believe something and ignore the truth… Who knows. But I do know that until I, in my body - heart - and soul believe that praying is not worshipping, I won’t do it with anyone BUT God.

Well, I really do not concern myself with all the legalities of what prayer is or is not. I know who I worship. I pray in a lot of ways. And I pray for/about a lot of things. I pray directly to God. I also may ask all or a few to include Mary of my Brothers and Sisters who have gone before me to pray with/for me. (As well my brother and sisters here on earth still fighting the good fight) It is a both/and not an either/or. And I also pray giving thanks to God. I can tell you that I only worship God. I do not worship anyone else.

 

[peary]

Roy5 posted:
*It is true that Protestants accept birth control, responsible family planning. While Catholicism condemns it, surveys have shown that Catholics overwhelmingly approve of it and use it.

This has nothing to do with respect for Mary. Silly argument.*

**Protestants not only accept birth control, they have always been in the forefront of encouraging their congregations to practice it. ‘Responsible’ family planning has nothing to do with birth control, which has everything to do with having sex without being open to the transmission of life from God. The social purpose of birth control is to encourage recreational sex. To teach it as some form of “responsible family planning” is a lie.

Most mainline protestant denominations were also in the forefront of allowing abortion. The result has been a breakdown in relationships, in the family, the acceptance of perpetual divorce, and now, sodomite marriage. The Catholic Church condemns them all. What some of its members do is something they must answer for in their own souls. Good solid practicing Catholics respect the Church’s teachings and truly believe that these social policies have caused untold misery in the lives of those who insist on indulging in them.

Protestantism has everything to do with lack of respect and honor of Mary because it has everything to do with its loss of respect and honor of holy motherhood.**

 

[guanophore]

But THIS part of the forum is called “non-Catholic religions”,so you can expect non-Catholics to “come” and discuss here, that is what this part of the forum is meant for, isn’t it ???:bounce:

Couldn’t have said it better myself! Don’t go anywhere, Huguenot!

 

[Scottgun]

Roy5 posted:
It is true that Protestants accept birth control, responsible family planning. While Catholicism condemns it, surveys have shown that Catholics overwhelmingly approve of it and use it.

Source please.

 

[Roy5]

BRBT SOUTHWELL/B]

(1) You seem to misinterpret Paul. Perhaps his most famous passage is I Cor. 13, which ends: "And now abideth faith, hope, love, and the greatest of these is love." 

 (2) I do not subscribe to sola scriptura. But I also don't subscribe to the view that the Pope is God's representative here on earth, papal ex cathedra infallibility in faith and morals, etc. Such ideas may have been acceptable in medieval times, the era of absolute monarchs and such, but not today.

(3) "Once saved, always saved" can be debated re Paul. There are those who think that he clearly taught predestination - the elect. Not my view. Frankly, I don't pretend to know how God works these eternal questions out. I'm sure it's fair and merciful. 

 But you still haven't faced up to the question: if Mary is so central in Christian theology and worship, why does St. Paul, the great missionary, write all these letters to early Christians and not once mention Mary?

PEARY

  The notion, which you seem to have, that sexual relations between husbands and wives should always risk having children is unfortunate. Couples should be able to express their love and intimacy without that. This smacks of the mistaken idea that sex's only purpose should be producing children - and that's it. Sadly, Catholicism and some expressions of Protestantism have demeaned sex. I have a book on the lives of many Catholic saints and the first word used to describe nearly all the female saints is 'virgin'. There's something very unhealthy about that. Sex under proper circumstances is a wonderful gift from God and should be celebrated and not put down. The vast majority of Catholics share this intelligent view.

  This same negative attitude toward sex seems to be an important underlying factor in the celibacy of priests. (True, there are other factors, of course.) Without the normal outlet for God-given natural desires, no wonder so many priests have strayed and the Catholic church has paid millions upon millions in damages here and elsewhere in the world. If the church permitted marriage of clergy thousands of healthy-minded young men could be attracted to the priesthood. There must be at least 300,000 married Protestant ministers in the USA at the moment. Yes, a few of them stray, also, but it's a far better system.

   **To tie this in closer to the thread**, one reason Catholicism teaches that  Mary had no children but Jesus is to keep her a perpetual virgin. If she married Joseph, why is that important? I would even suggest that it violates the marriage covenant when husbands and wives (according to scripture) become one flesh. It again sends the message that virginity is a higher state than normal married sexual relations.

 

[Tomster]

BRBT SOUTHWELL/B]

(1) You seem to misinterpret Paul. Perhaps his most famous passage is I Cor. 13, which ends: "And now abideth faith, hope, love, and the greatest of these is love." 

 (2) I do not subscribe to sola scriptura. But I also don't subscribe to the view that the Pope is God's representative here on earth, papal ex cathedra infallibility in faith and morals, etc. Such ideas may have been acceptable in medieval times, the era of absolute monarchs and such, but not today.

(3) "Once saved, always saved" can be debated re Paul. There are those who think that he clearly taught predestination - the elect. Not my view. Frankly, I don't pretend to know how God works these eternal questions out. I'm sure it's fair and merciful. 

 But you still haven't faced up to the question: if Mary is so central in Christian theology and worship, why does St. Paul, the great missionary, write all these letters to early Christians and not once mention Mary?

PEARY

  The notion, which you seem to have, that sexual relations between husbands and wives should always risk having children is unfortunate. Couples should be able to express their love and intimacy without that. This smacks of the mistaken idea that sex's only purpose should be producing children - and that's it. Sadly, Catholicism and some expressions of Protestantism have demeaned sex. I have a book on the lives of many Catholic saints and the first word used to describe nearly all the female saints is 'virgin'. There's something very unhealthy about that. Sex under proper circumstances is a wonderful gift from God and should be celebrated and not put down. The vast majority of Catholics share this intelligent view.

  This same negative attitude toward sex seems to be an important underlying factor in the celibacy of priests. (True, there are other factors, of course.) Without the normal outlet for God-given natural desires, no wonder so many priests have strayed and the Catholic church has paid millions upon millions in damages here and elsewhere in the world. If the church permitted marriage of clergy thousands of healthy-minded young men could be attracted to the priesthood. There must be at least 300,000 married Protestant ministers in the USA at the moment. Yes, a few of them stray, also, but it's a far better system.

   **To tie this in closer to the thread**, one reason Catholicism teaches that  Mary had no children but Jesus is to keep her a perpetual virgin. If she married Joseph, why is that important? I would even suggest that it violates the marriage covenant when husbands and wives (according to scripture) become one flesh. It again sends the message that virginity is a higher state than normal married sexual relations.

Indeed, if one chooses not to marry and to practice perfect chastity, he chooses a nobler state than matrimony.

 

[peary]

BRBT SOUTHWELL/B]

PEARY

  The notion, which you seem to have, that sexual relations between husbands and wives should always risk having children is unfortunate. Couples should be able to express their love and intimacy without that. This smacks of the mistaken idea that sex's only purpose should be producing children - and that's it. Sadly, Catholicism and some expressions of Protestantism have demeaned sex. I have a book on the lives of many Catholic saints and the first word used to describe nearly all the female saints is 'virgin'. There's something very unhealthy about that. Sex under proper circumstances is a wonderful gift from God and should be celebrated and not put down. The vast majority of Catholics share this intelligent view.

  This same negative attitude toward sex seems to be an important underlying factor in the celibacy of priests.

Celibacy is not the rule for all Catholic priests. In fact, for Eastern Rite Catholics, married priests are the norm, just as they are for Orthodox and Oriental Christians.

Without the normal outlet for God-given natural desires, no wonder so many priests have strayed and the Catholic church has paid millions upon millions in damages here and elsewhere in the world.

Celibacy and holy chastity are not the reasons for this. If this were so, then Christ and even Paul would not have remained celibate themselves. A homosexual subculture within the priesthood itself as well as bad discernment on the part of superiors have allowed this to happen. Pedophilia is not ‘caused’ by celibacy or holy chastity, and the independent report of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice found that the overwhelming abuse occurred between homosexual priests and post-pubescent boys (teenagers).

If the church permitted marriage of clergy thousands of healthy-minded young men could be attracted to the priesthood.

According to statistics, divorce among men who have left the priesthood and married is in line with the national average.

There must be at least 300,000 married Protestant ministers in the USA at the moment. Yes, a few of them stray, also, but it’s a far better system.

According to statistics, divorce among protestant ministers is in line with the national average and sometimes surpasses it depending on the denomination.

   ...one reason Catholicism teaches that  Mary had no children but Jesus is to keep her a perpetual virgin. If she married Joseph, why is that important? I would even suggest that it violates the marriage covenant when husbands and wives (according to scripture) become one flesh. It again sends the message that virginity is a higher state than normal married sexual relations.

Then you must reject the dogma of the Virgin Birth, as that in itself, according to you, violates the marriage covenant when husbands and wives (according to scripture) become one flesh.

Your logic is flawed and you are just wrong.