Why is it wrong to love Mary?

[EHRAM]

Yet not one Protestant church loves Mary.

The Episcopalians honor Mary. Not as much as Catholics do, but they may pray the rosary, or at least say a “Hail, Mary,” and may have statues or icons of Mary in their churches. They consider her to be the God-bearer, or Mother of God.

 

[EHRAM]

Part of the confusion stems from the fact that Catholics and Protestants do not define “worship” the same way. Catholics believe that they worship God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) via the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants think that worship involves prayer, praise, and singing hymns. So when Protestants see Catholics praying to Mary, praising Mary’s virtues, and singing songs to her, they think that the Catholics are worshipping Mary.

 

[Cathy]

Part of the confusion stems from the fact that Catholics and Protestants do not define “worship” the same way. Catholics believe that they worship God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) via the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants think that worship involves prayer, praise, and singing hymns. So when Protestants see Catholics praying to Mary, praising Mary’s virtues, and singing songs to her, they think that the Catholics are worshipping Mary.

Excellent point, EHRAM. When I was still Protestant, that was exactly my misunderstanding. Scott Hahn, the former Presbyterian minister turned Catholic apologist, helped me see that problem.

We (Protestants and Catholics) seem to be “divided by a common language” (not my line; I forget which famous person used that to describe the relations between England and the USA).

The word “prayer” also has different meanings for Protestants and Catholics. For Protestants, it refers exclusively to communicating with God. For Catholics, and for lawyers, it still has the traditional meaning of being a request to anyone. In the case of lawyers, they make a “prayer” to the court. In the case of Catholics, we make a “prayer” or request to our friends and family members, including those in Heaven ( remember, we believe in “the communion of saints”) to intercede with God for us.

And which merely human person is closer to God than His mother? And who follows the commandment to honor His Father ***and mother ***better than Jesus?

 

[guanophore]

I wanted to reply to your other comments on sexuality, but did not want to draw this thread too far from the topic, so I moved them to one that is closer to the theme:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3323506#post3323506

        **To tie this in closer to the thread**, one reason Catholicism teaches that  Mary had no children but Jesus is to keep her a perpetual virgin. If she married Joseph, why is that important? I would even suggest that it violates the marriage covenant when husbands and wives (according to scripture) become one flesh. It again sends the message that virginity is a higher state than normal married sexual relations.

This does not make any sense to me. Catholicism is one of the few that teaches that marriage is a holy sacrament, and that children are a gift from God. How is it any service to Catholicism that Mary “be kept a perpetual virgin”?

I agree that the normal marriage is sexually active and open to children.There are exceptions to that, however. Both celibacy for the kingdom and marriage can be higher states when the persons within them aspire to fulfill all of God’s plan for their lives. Mary had made a vow of celibacy, and was given to Joseph for safekeeping. She was espoused to God. I am sure that Joseph, being a rightous man, loved her deeply, and scripture shows that he was obedient to all of God’s direction in caring for her and her Divine Son. I am not sure if he understood all the implications of her being the New Ark, but I don’t think he would have presumed to help himself to someone who had already been impregnated by the HS.

 

[sambos671]

Strange that we look at how we view Mary and determine our Marriage values by it. The Catholic Church has a very strong teaching about marriage and will not condone those who are married in the Church to be divorced. Yet they support the celebacy of their clergy. Though many Protestants allow for divorce they have strong family values and allow their clergy to marry. I don’t know what either has to do with Mary. I mean logically if the clergy are to remain celebate like Mary you would think they would not put much value in marriage. However, you don’t see that. It seems the Catholics have a stronger stance on marriage and family than do the Protestants. Of course I’m being general since there are so many denominations.
I still think the celebacy of the preisthood is due to Gregory trying to put them under his control rather than allowing for the European kings having the ability to pass title and lands to the clergy. This way the clergy is firmly under his control politcally and titles could not be passed on to heirs as in the past and must come from a representative of Rome.
Still, I don’t see what this has to do with Mary.

 

[sambos671]

To clear something up. When I said celebate like Mary I meant the Catholic teaching that she never had conjugal relations with her husband (perpetual virginity). I’m not necissarily buying that one as yet.

 

[1234]

Yeah, Roy5, and

 

[1234]

Wow. I never thought about this, but it is really true! I had figured out the part about having a poor relationship with a mother figure, but had not realized that the deposing of Mary co-incides with the acceptance of contraception. Thank you for that insight.

“Honoring Mary”, which in the Catholic church translates as worship, has nothing to do with contraception or abortion.

Protestants accept contraception because they value motherhood so much, because conception should be planned so that the children planned by loving couples will be loved and provided for.

Abortion is condoned because it is unpreventable. Make it illegal and it will remain as common, but become far more dangerous.The best way to prevent abortion is by sex education and contraception, not by making abortion illegal. The Scandinavian countries, who have mandadory sex education from an early age, and who use widespread contraception, have the lowest abortion rates in the world. Countries which have neither, such as Catholic countries in Latin America, have the highest, with the highest number of abortion-related deaths.

 

[peary]

Strange that we look at how we view Mary and determine our Marriage values by it. The Catholic Church has a very strong teaching about marriage and will not condone those who are married in the Church to be divorced.

The Church recognizes that divorce may be a solution to an abusive relationship and separation would be a valid option. If one or both partners want to pursue an annulment, they can go through proper channels via their parish. What the Church does not condone is divorce for divorce’s sake and re-marriage outside of the covenantal bond.

Yet they support the celebacy of their clergy.

No one is required to take a vow of celibacy; those who do, do so voluntarily. They “renounce marriage” (Matt. 19:12); no one forbids it to them. Any Catholic who doesn’t wish to take such a vow doesn’t have to, and is almost always free to marry with the Church’s blessing. The Church simply elects candidates for the priesthood (or, in the Eastern rites, for the episcopacy) from among those who voluntarily renounce marriage. No one holds a gun to their head.

Though many Protestants allow for divorce they have strong family values and allow their clergy to marry.

Divorce does not support “strong family values.” In fact, it works against strong family values.

I still think the celebacy of the preisthood is due to Gregory trying to put them under his control rather than allowing for the European kings having the ability to pass title and lands to the clergy. This way the clergy is firmly under his control politcally and titles could not be passed on to heirs as in the past and must come from a representative of Rome.

You need to read a proper historical perspective on celibacy in the Latin Church. You will find an excellent article on this here:

newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

 

[peary]

“Honoring Mary”, which in the Catholic church translates as worship, has nothing to do with contraception or abortion.

Protestants accept contraception because they value motherhood so much, because conception should be planned so that the children planned by loving couples will be loved and provided for.

Abortion is condoned because it is unpreventable. Make it illegal and it will remain as common, but become far more dangerous.The best way to prevent abortion is by sex education and contraception, not by making abortion illegal. The Scandinavian countries, who have mandadory sex education from an early age, and who use widespread contraception, have the lowest abortion rates in the world. Countries which have neither, such as Catholic countries in Latin America, have the highest, with the highest number of abortion-related deaths.

**Your arguments are naive.

Protestantism accepts artificial birth control because of the socially accepted immorality of recreational sex. Although it may have started out with good intentions, the result has been disasterous for those Christians who practice it. It has led to a fractured understanding of the covenantal bond between man and woman resulting in spousal abuse, child abuse, divorce, abortion and now sodomite marriage. The vast majority of babies in the world - even in the U.S. - are not ‘planned’. You live in a fantasy world.**

**Scandinavian countries, who have mandadory sex education from an early age, and who use widespread contraception, defnitely have the lowest abortion rates in the world. But marriage is also low, with over 97%of couples living together without the benefit of marriage. Multiple partnerships have been a psychological disaster for this society, complete with an alarming growth of STDs. **

 

[Roy5]

Peary and 1234

 A few brief points.

 (1) Someone unfortunately moved my answers to the questions re St. Paul. See #800 to check it out. I prefer not to start answering these three questions from scratch again.

 (2) I always have interpreted Matt 1:18, 25 as indicating that Mary and Joseph, after the birth of Jesus, did live together as husband and wife, including conjugal relations. Besides, the Bible suggests that Jesus had siblings. I know that Catholicism makes them out to be cousins, etc., but that always appeared to me to be a dodge, a desperate effort to defend the perpetual virginity of Mary. I don't understand why it's so important for Mary, a married woman, to be a lifelong virgin. What a better role model if she lived the life of a faithful, loving spouse.

  (3) The idea that celibacy + chastity is a 'nobler state' than marriage is absurd. As a father myself, I know the love, work and sacrifices required of good fathers. The first commandment found in the Bible was "be fruitful and multiply". God ordained marriage. There is nothing wrong, of course, with being celibate, but to honor it as superior to marriage - a ridiculous statement. As someone said, the Eastern Rite has married priests. Back in the early 20th century some Uniate Catholics settled in Minnesota with their priest. The Irish bishop refused to recognize him. Most of them went into (actually, back to) the Russian Orthodox Church as a result.

   (4) Church annulments are church divorces pure and simple. And to declare a marriage invalid after 4-5 children is silly. It reminds me a bit of Muslim shariah law, where a religion has its own courts, etc. Orthodox Judaism has much of this, too. 

   (5) The main challenge to Catholicism today is to keep its people in line. Obviously that isn't happening. Most of my Catholic friends are cultural Catholics who may or may not attend mass, but they pay little or no attention to church rules on birth control and have serious doubts about transubstantiation, papal infallibility, etc. They are intelligent and broad-minded people who feel the freedom to dissent after generations of fearing church disapproval and God's wrath. In fact, Catholics as a whole here seem much more 'liberal' than evangelical Protestants. Strange phenomenon. 

   Thank God for John XXIII and Vatican II. But both Catholics and Protestants have a way to travel before reconciliation. They should encourage balanced discussion and not require capitulation. Frabkly, I am a 'big tent' Christian, allowing diversity of opinion among those who seek to follow Christ.

 

[peary]

Peary and 1234

  I always have interpreted Matt 1:18, 25 as indicating that Mary and Joseph, after the birth of Jesus, did live together as husband and wife, including conjugal relations. Besides, the Bible suggests that Jesus had siblings.

If you read the gospels correctly, all of the so-called siblings of Jesus are accounted for as their lineages are mentioned.

I know that Catholicism makes them out to be cousins, etc., but that always appeared to me to be a dodge, a desperate effort to defend the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Neither Hebrew nor Aramaic had a special word meaning “cousin.”
Speakers and writers of those languages could use either the word for “brother” or a circumlocution, such as “the son of my uncle.” The writers of the New Testament were brought up using the Aramaic equivalent of “brothers” to mean both cousins and sons of the same father—plus other relatives and even non-relatives. It’s a simple language problem. It’s not a ‘dodge’.

   The idea that celibacy + chastity is a 'nobler state' than marriage is absurd.

"Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" (Matt. 19:11–12).

   (4) Church annulments are church divorces pure and simple. And to declare a marriage invalid after 4-5 children is silly. It reminds me a bit of Muslim shariah law, where a religion has its own courts, etc. Orthodox Judaism has much of this, too.

’Divorce’ is a social term used by society. You can be married by the justice of the peace, and you can be divorced legally by secular law. Marriage, however, is a sacrament. It is a spiritual covenantal bond between a man and a woman. If something is determined missing or seriously flawed in that bond, then the covenant did not take place, and an annullment will determine this, regardless as to whether or not children are involved. The establishment of the sacramental bond of Matrimony for a Catholic Christian is a special unifying element within the Body of Christ and the Church community. There is no such thing as a “church divorce.” One cannot divorce from the Body of Christ without spiritual repercussions. Jesus elevated Matrimony to its original status it had with Adam and Eve. Any valid marriage between two baptized people is a sacramental marriage and, once consummated, cannot be dissolved. Jesus, therefore, taught that if anyone so married divorces and remarries, that person is living in perpetual adultery, a state of mortal sin. The Church proclaims the same Truth.

   (5) The main challenge to Catholicism today is to keep its people in line. Obviously that isn't happening. Most of my Catholic friends are cultural Catholics who may or may not attend mass, but they pay little or no attention to church rules on birth control and have serious doubts about transubstantiation, papal infallibility, etc.

Practicing Catholics are just that - Catholic Christians who practice their Faith, who attend Mass faithfully, who sincerely strive to follow the teachings of the Church in both spiritual and moral matters. They are intelligent, and are probably moreso than your so-called ‘cultural’ Catholics because they understand with their reasoning ability as to why the Church teaches as it does, and they do not follow blindly. That is called an “informed conscience.” It is important to realize that one cannot ‘get’ Faith or ‘do’ Faith. It is a gift and, as such, can be squandered.

 

[rikkk1958]

There’s nothing wrong in loving Mary. I always think that remembering those who were and are close to the Lord are special people and Mary is not just an ordinary person. Mary deserved to be adored by thanking her and with prayers. The Rosary is one of the best way to offer the Virgin Mother of God. It is like offering flowers to her. Is anything wrong for doing good? Catholics do not in any circumstance compare others above Jesus. If you love your neighbors, how much more would you love the Mother of our Lord?

 

[Cathy]

Mary deserved to be adored by thanking her and with prayers.

Hi Rikkk. Welcome!
You have just reminded me that there are a couple of other words that Protestants and Catholics may use differently. Two are “worship,” and “prayer,” as already addressed in this thread.

Two more are “devotion” and “adoration.” In normal Protestant speech, “devotion” has to do with God alone, and “adoration” has to do with other things (e.g., an “adorable puppy,” or “I just adore his accent”). But when it comes to Catholic spiritual writing in general, “adoration” tends to be reserved to God alone, whereas “devotion” can be toward Blessed Virgin Mary and the other saints. This vocabulary difference causes serious problems in discussing Catholic devotion to Mary and the saints. To a Protestant ear, it seems backwards, while in fact, devotion to Mary is far less than the supreme adoration due to God alone, and given to God alone by well-formed Catholic believers.

No doubt someone on this forum can explain the three different Latin words which describe the different levels of respect toward 1) saints, 2) Blessed Virgin Mary and 3) Most Holy Trinity. To try to describe this using English words is just too confusing.

 

[Cathy]

I think I just remembered the Latin words that all translate into one word, "worship " in English, but that have quite differing meanings. There is “dulia,” which is the honor we owe the saints. Then there is “hyperdulia,” the special honor we owe to Mary as the mother of Jesus, Who is God (thus her title, Mother of God). Finally there is “latria,” which is the adoration far above dulia or hyperdulia, and is the great high worship we owe to God alone.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Why is it wrong to love Mary?

I could not say.

If loving her is wrong, I don’t want to be right.

Who could love her more than He did?

I am humbled by His bequest to us unworthy sinners on his death of his mother to us her sons (and daughters!).

 

[Jimmy_B]

There’s nothing wrong with loving Mary.

But Catholics worship her like a goddess, which indeed is what she has become. People pray to her rather that to God or Jesus.

Being born of a virgin is something attributed to many famous ancients and ancient gods- Aristotle was said to be born of a virgin. So was Osiris. All ancient religions had their virgin goddesses–for the Greeks it was Athena (Minerva to the Romans), and Artemis (Diana to the Romans). In the Iliad, the epic of the fall of Troy, Athena beat out Aphrodite, the goddess of Love, which means erotic love.

Mary is said to have died at Ephesus, the great shrine of Diana.

The Catholic worship of Mary simply keeps alive an ancient tradition. That doesn’t mean that other Christians have to do it.

Everything in this post, along with other posts of yours, that I have read, is false and obviously an anti-Catholic lie; your own personal smear campaign against the Roman Catholic Church.

"1234”, interesting

“UU” interesting

I have read many of your posts and you seem to be quite impressed with yourself.

Unfortunately, it is clear that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and this becomes ever more apparent by the fact that you never source your information. Why would anyone give credibility to anything that you post here? Especially when your comments and posts are not credibly sourced.

For some reason, you have a personal axe to grind with Catholicism, and that’s pretty sad. I don’t believe that you have a problem with Catholicism, the religion; I believe that you have a personal problem and a personal agenda.

My guess is, that your posts will increasingly become more aggressive, ruder and show even more disrespect towards others here.

It is obvious that your problem is not a theological one, because you obviously do not posses enough information to come to a logical opinion or to make a credible argument.

You are clearly a juvenile, “hit and run” poster, in my opinion, whose vast knowledge is limited to the simple ability, to “cut and paste” inaccurate quotes from wikipedia and other badly sourced websites. Please prove me wrong.

Your time might be better spent in prayer.

Moreover, I believe you have probably posted here under a previous user name, didn’t get your way and now, recently picked a new name, “1234” (very creative, BTW), because it creates less of a problem for you, when you eventually are banned. I have seen this many times here, you are not fooling anyone.

Were you recently banned from here under another user name? I sure look’s that way.

If you have an “adult” point to make, than make it and source your information and we can have a “grown-up” discussion.

I am really dishearten, when I see so much anger and hatred (towards Catholicism, especially) because you must be a very unhappy individual. There is no “balance” in your posts here, just anger.

I will pray for you and in the meantime, I look forward to a real post from you. Please back up your opinions here with credible facts from reliable sources; otherwise, I will not make any effort to respond to your posts.

Thank You

 

[Jimmy_B]

Note: I addition to responding to “1234”’s post here, I have read the other posts by her and my comments here (above) apply to all her posts here at CAF. She apparently hates the Roman Catholic Church and will write just about anything to try and promote her anti-Catholic agenda.

 

[sambos671]

Well Peary,
I think the main force of my comments were I don’t know how we got to family values from the discussion of whether or not people love Mary. You may have missed out on that point.

On the otherhand the article you referred was a good one allowing me furhter research. The article gave me a good understanding for the moral, spiritual, economic, and social necissity for the celebacy of the priesthood. It gave a good argument for the history of the use of celebacy before Gregory. However, it failed to note the political climate and social revolution and conflict going on around Gregory’s Papacy which plays into it as much. I was left thinking that I could see Gregory using practices and earlier church discussions to foreward his agenda. The Holy Roman Emperor and he were in great conflict! However, it had referrance material that I will review to have a fuller understanding of it.

I wasn’t saying Protestants allowing for divorce was good for family values. My thoughts were that it is strange if the Catholic Church Venerates Mary who (they believe) was perpetually celebate and requirement that clergy who want to go higher in the church hirearchy remain so as well that there would be a strong emphasis on family values. I believe the Catholic church has a stronger teaching about family values than the protestant ones. My statment about the protestants family values was more along the lines that they claimed to have strong values and encourage the marriage of their clergy yet in practice they allow divorse and have a divorce rate equal to the secular culture. Not family values. Strange that the faith that requires celebacy also has taught stronger values than the one that doesn’t. That was closer to my point. I just didn’t state it well. I tend to go off on tangents.

 

[rikkk1958]

Hi Rikkk. Welcome!
You have just reminded me that there are a couple of other words that Protestants and Catholics may use differently. Two are “worship,” and “prayer,” as already addressed in this thread.

Two more are “devotion” and “adoration.” In normal Protestant speech, “devotion” has to do with God alone, and “adoration” has to do with other things (e.g., an “adorable puppy,” or “I just adore his accent”). But when it comes to Catholic spiritual writing in general, “adoration” tends to be reserved to God alone, whereas “devotion” can be toward Blessed Virgin Mary and the other saints. This vocabulary difference causes serious problems in discussing Catholic devotion to Mary and the saints. To a Protestant ear, it seems backwards, while in fact, devotion to Mary is far less than the supreme adoration due to God alone, and given to God alone by well-formed Catholic believers.

No doubt someone on this forum can explain the three different Latin words which describe the different levels of respect toward 1) saints, 2) Blessed Virgin Mary and 3) Most Holy Trinity. To try to describe this using English words is just too confusing.

Dear Cathey,

Thanks for the info. I will always remember that. For me the vagueness of words will not hinder how I would describe loving the Blessed Virgin but for the sake of righteousness I will heed your advice. Thanks again.