Why is Jesus necessary?

[LilyM]

Here we go yet again. Do you get some kind of enjoyment out of starting the same thread over and over and over and over again? LOL Good luck folks… this has been a game that uglygal never seems to tire of. God bless.

Give her a few days, she’ll be back. She can’t resist trying to get her kicks by telling us how awful God is, how awful Jesus is, how we’ve got it all wrong …

 

[Tietjen]

Well, take your own advice. Why can’t you discuss dispassionately what you see as being wrong with what God has done, instead of bandying words around like brutal and sadistic to describe Him? Aren’t you just as guilty of prejudging Him, a futile endeavour seeing as how you can’t possibly know His motives?

Unlike I who can at least make some educated guess at yours because I’m not your creature and you aren’t infinite, Almighty and totally beyond my comprehension?

LilyM,

It’s all a game to her. Don’t get so worked up. She comes in here every month or two and starts an “I love the Father but hate Jesus” thread. Then she whimsically takes verses out of context, makes false statements, and argues for the sole purpose of entertaining herself. Go back and look up the threads she’s created in the past. If the subject matter weren’t so important, it might be funny. She actually gets people to feel sorry for her. I’ve watched her take that pity and eventually get them to agree with her views!

And as usual, I fully expect to again hear how I am being too hard on her. Shesh. Peace all and God (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) bless you U.G.

 

[uglygal]

There once was a black sheep
An ugly sheep, deformed and unsightly
who lived with God’s little flock
In a green pasture

This sheep could never be around the others
because this sheep was not as white as the others
and couldn’t run as quickly as the others

This sheep was lame and could only limp very slowly
It was blind and couldn’t see
and deaf and couldn’t hear very well

It always wanted to be like the white sheep
the sheep who could hear, the sheep who could see
the sheep who could run quickly and move with leaps and bounds

This black sheep spent years hiding behind a rock
Looking at the others but never daring to come out
For fear that the others may see it

Then one day the black ugly sheep found a friend
A little friend who came to the sheep
and spoke to the sheep and bought happiness to the sheep

And the sheep spent several months talking with this friend
and the sheep grew happy and felt liked
and the sheep wanted to come out of hiding and tell the white sheep
I have found a friend

So the sheep asked the friend, who are you, what is your name?
and the friend said, I am the owner of this pasture.

And the black sheep came out of its hiding and wanted to tell the white sheep what wonderful thing had happened
And the white sheep listened but grew unhappy, thinking to themselves, “how could this deformed simple creature have something so wonderful happen”
and so they asked the name of the friend
and the sheep replied - it is the owner of the pasture

But the white sheep would have none of it
and cast the black sheep away
yelling, “only we are friends of the owner of this pasture”
“The owner comes through the gates every day … He would never come to you as a small friend. You are too blind to see Him and too deaf to hear Him, you are to stupid to understand what he says”

So the black sheep decided to leave and to return to its place behind the rock
The black sheep was very sad but a familiar face suddenly appeared.
The friend had returned to speak with the black sheep but the black sheep felt sad
because as it listened it could see that what the white sheep had said was true
The sheep could not understand everything the friend said, or hear every word that came from His mouth

It listened as hard as it could and tried to understand the best it could but the only words it could understand being said was ‘I love you, trust me, love others, I will take care of you’

The black sheep was sad that what the white sheep had said was true and it cried that it was so ugly and stupid. The black sheep cried because to understand love was not enough … and love was all it could understand

 

[Tietjen]

Black sheep and white sheep get along great together. They hold no prejudices against one another. Its sheep and wolves that do not find friendship. Oh, incidentally, sheep do not cry, they bleat.

You can come up with any “warm and fuzzy” fairy tale you wish, but in the end, if you deny Jesus Christ (the Son), He will deny you before His Father. You cannot separate the Trinity and choose to love one Person and hate another.

 

[Valke2]

why not? If you are required to love the tinrity equally, what is the point of there being a trinity? That is, if you are to treat the trinity as one entity, then is there really a trinity?

 

[beckycmarie]

The owner of the pasture had a son
whom he sent to tend the sheep.

The son loved all the sheep dearly,
especially the little black sheep that hid from him.

Every day the son called to the black sheep. If only the
black sheep would let him come near, he would take
the sheep in his arms, showing her the love she desperately
wanted, but still she hid from him.

The son approached, but the sheep fled from him.
The closer he tried to get to her, the more she drew back.

But the son was relentless. His love for the sheep was so great
that all he wanted was her love in return. He continued to pursue her until one day she backed herself up to a cliff.

There was the little black sheep, teeteering on the edge of the cliff, with rocks that were giving way.

The son could leave her there, and let her fall, or he could save her, but to to do so meant his own death.

Love compelled the son to save her, even if it meant she’d never love him in return.
He leapt upon the rocks and pushed the sheep back to safety, and the rocks gave way, and the son fell to his death.

There was the little black sheep, now on safe ground, and as
she peered down over the cliff, she thought to herself,

“Thank goodness he’s gone. He only wanted to hurt me anyway.”

 

[tessi]

• Your God makes no sense, your religion makes no sense, your theology makes no sense and I have read the whole bible. I have read and re-read and my intent in coming here is to understand … but I don’t. *

Have you read Saint Paul Epistoles? Have you re-read the words of Jesus? Sticking to the old testament leaves you blind.

 

[cheeto1]

The owner of the pasture had a son
whom he sent to tend the sheep.

The son loved all the sheep dearly,
especially the little black sheep that hid from him.

Every day the son called to the black sheep. If only the
black sheep would let him come near, he would take
the sheep in his arms, showing her the love she desperately
wanted, but still she hid from him.

The son approached, but the sheep fled from him.
The closer he tried to get to her, the more she drew back.

But the son was relentless. His love for the sheep was so great
that all he wanted was her love in return. He continued to pursue her until one day she backed herself up to a cliff.

There was the little black sheep, teeteering on the edge of the cliff, with rocks that were giving way.

The son could leave her there, and let her fall, or he could save her, but to to do so meant his own death.

Love compelled the son to save her, even if it meant she’d never love him in return.
He leapt upon the rocks and pushed the sheep back to safety, and the rocks gave way, and the son fell to his death.

There was the little black sheep, now on safe ground, and as
she peered down over the cliff, she thought to herself,

“Thank goodness he’s gone. He only wanted to hurt me anyway.”

Let’s read it again…:crying:

 

[fhansen]

There was the little black sheep, now on safe ground, and as
she peered down over the cliff, she thought to herself,

“Thank goodness he’s gone. He only wanted to hurt me anyway.”

But love’s eternal and triumphs over death so the son arose from his sleep and was glad to see the sheep safe with the Father since the sons’ chief purpose was to open the gate and shepherd the sheep back into the Fathers’ sheepfold.

But the little black sheep stayed in a corner of the fold, away from the son and the other sheep who also knew and loved the Father, and the son knew she’d been hurt by wolves, some in sheep’s clothing, so that she didn’t trust easily.

And now as the son knows her heart better than his sheep do, who aren’t always so sure about her, he’ll probably have her rest there in her corner…where she’ll stay until she gets restless and decides to start buggin’ the other sheep again.

 

[adelaida_i]

Just what did Jesus bring that God the Father had not already given hundreds, or perhaps thousands of years earlier?

Why is he necessary? Don’t tell its for the forgiveness of sins or for redemption as the above verses show its not true.
So i guess my question is, what is Jesus so essential for?
Thanks

Dear Uglygal,

I think that Jesus brought a lot of new things, even if non of them denied what the Father already revealed. Jesus brought us the consciousness of God being One but in 3 Persons, which means that in God there is Love even before the creation, and that the nature of God is defined by Love and Unity (the relationship inside the Trinity is something new!).
Jesus, made Himself companion to us, to share with us His nature. In living in company with Him we also become able of love and unity between us as a participation to the Love and Unity inside the Trinity, which means we become more and more like God.
A second point, not less important than the others. As our hearts cannot find rest if not in God, first everyone that searched for God had to content himself/herself with texts, memories of a people. Since Jesus incarnated we have more than texts and memories. We have God with us every day, a God that have a human face, because when He said that He will be with us every day He meant it. He is present to us in His body, the Church, in the community that helped you to meet Him. He is here as He is visible in the miraculous Unity and Love between us. A real meeting is much more than words isn’t it?
Why Jesus was necessary is a very, very long talk. There are thousands of books on Christ Theology. Maybe one of the best authors would be the Hans Urs von Balthasar, but it is very difficult. A lot more easy to read and close to us is a book of Luigi Giussani “At the Origin of the Christian Claim”, that explains well why Jesus. If you have time you can read the trio of books it makes part of, the first being “The religious sense” (why the man need God) and the third “Why the Church?” (why the Christ choose to make Himself Present in the world through us, so little and insignificant as we are…).
God be with you, because a heart that is desiring for truth is a heart that can rich very far (as Saint Augustine did).

Adelaida

 

[LILLY4CHRIST]

First and Foremost, do not talk about God that way even if you were trying to be expressive. He is not a man. Your question is worth asking but have you ever asked this…

Why is there a need for me to be born …Ask yourself this and may be, you will know why Jesus is necessary.

God requires a sacrifice of blood once and for all to wash away sins and he found his son’s blood worthy to was away our original sins which still counts even if u seemed to be locked up in a room all your life.

God needed us to know Him the way he really is. You think you know God enough with all the stories in the Bible? then Wait till you humbly read (through the Holy spirit) to know all Jesus said about the Father and confirmed all you thought you knew.

 

[GraceDK]

Good question: why is Jesus necessary?

You give yourself the answer when you talk well about the Father. Without Jesus you would not have known the Father.

But look at this 4-minute clip:

youtube.com/watch?v=umn3iCn90IY

I recommend it to every one of you …

 

[uglygal]

But love’s eternal and triumphs over death so the son arose from his sleep and was glad to see the sheep safe with the Father since the sons’ chief purpose was to open the gate and shepherd the sheep back into the Fathers’ sheepfold.

But the little black sheep stayed in a corner of the fold, away from the son and the other sheep who also knew and loved the Father, and the son knew she’d been hurt by wolves, some in sheep’s clothing, so that she didn’t trust easily.

And now as the son knows her heart better than his sheep do, who aren’t always so sure about her, he’ll probably have her rest there in her corner…where she’ll stay until she gets restless and decides to start buggin’ the other sheep again.

buggin? thanks but no thanks, I won’t indulge them any longer

God requires a sacrifice of blood once and for all to wash away sins and he found his son’s blood worthy to was away our original sins which still counts even if u seemed to be locked up in a room all your life.

This is a quote from LILLY4CHRIST and in a way hits the crux of my confusion and what spurs my questions … oops no wait, my “games” …

God requires a sacrifice of blood once and for all to wash away sins

why blood? why does God require a sacrifice of blood once and for all to wash away sin? Whereas in another post (47) I am told he doesn’t. I’ll just quote some of it

God the Father is not some kind of wrathful, Germanic pagan “sky god” who demands to see blood. Think about it. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was the worst sin that mankind ever committed. If it were otherwise, Christ would not have said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Thus, the bloody death of Jesus Christ was not something that the Father Himself willed or wanted.

He didn’t will or want it but he required it?
Does it ultimately come down to blood? If you believe God the Father required, wanted blood to wash away our sins than Jesus is necessary, but if you believe he didn’t require or want it Jesus is … still necessary? How? I think an answer to this would get to the essence of my dilemma and perhaps help me understand

Thanks

 

[uglygal]

First and Foremost, do not talk about God that way even if you were trying to be expressive. He is not a man. Your question is worth asking but have you ever asked this…

then I apologize. I assumed people would know I was expressing feelings I had in the past, images I have had of God or just being expressive. I’m sorry.

Why is there a need for me to be born …Ask yourself this and may be, you will know why Jesus is necessary.

lol believe me every time I ask that I find no need so applying it to Jesus would not be of much assistance

 

[uglygal]

Good question: why is Jesus necessary?

You give yourself the answer when you talk well about the Father. Without Jesus you would not have known the Father.

But look at this 4-minute clip:

youtube.com/watch?v=umn3iCn90IY

I recommend it to every one of you …

I find some things in that clip quiet disturbing and deceiving.

 

[GraceDK]

I find some things in that clip quiet disturbing and deceiving.

Really?
Why?

Do you also find the Ten Commandments disturbing in themselves when you read your Bible?
or is your dislike more a consequence of the fact that the commandments are presented by a Protestant brother here?

My own belief, according to what I read about the first Christians, is that you have to make people recognize their need of salvation, their own sinfulness and unability to do anything good, in order for them to be able to embrace the Saviour Jesus.
It may be politically incorrect to make people feel guilty… but the Church is not political. Its supposed to teach truth. Truth will convict first in order to set free afterwards with a true freedom.

Post-modern man is very prone to believe that he is fine by himself and that he has done nothing wrong. Therefore he despises religion.

A young man came to Jesus and asked Him: “Good Master, what must I do in order to have eternal life?”
Jesus said: “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God. Have you kept the commandments?” …

Jesus took the young man through the commandments to the extreme… and in the end the young man left frustrated… Jesus did not run after him saying: “Hey… I didn’t mean it. Why don’t we become buddies and I will Evangelise to you another time in a manner where you don’t feel any pressure?”

Now tell me why you did not like the clip… as for me I love to see a man get spurred on and reflect on his own existence

 

[adelaida_i]

I find some things in that clip quiet disturbing and deceiving.

And I agree with you. If God would be only a tyrant that impose you a law and punish you if you don’t fulfill it would be little interesting. And would be also little interesting if Jesus would be only a parachute to Heaven… is sad, really, because have little to do with our lives.
But if God is the only one that can give the answer to our desire of infinite, the answer to the infinite desire of our hearts, that’s already something that counts. Because nothing in this world can give an answer to that, everything take away that thirst only for a moment. Nothing created can answer to our thirst of life and to our desire to complete fulfillment.
Of course, people may have many reasons to come to God, some for the salvation of the sins, some just to accuse Him that He is a tyrant , some just to feel safe and secure… I hope none of those will remain at this point because none of this points gets one to be happy and knows God as He is.
With love in Christ,

Adelaida

 

[fhansen]

buggin? thanks but no thanks, I won’t indulge them any longer

Gal, you’ve got to admit, with all of your many threads, there’s a repetitive provocative tone which can be annoying. I mean, your in a Catholic forum often attacking belief in Jesus-not just questioning it. Even at that, I apologize if I offended you. Many of us have tried to get you to see what and why they believe and you have some decent questions and insights which get us thinking and which often seem to come from your heart and it’s not that most of us lack love for you but we don’t seem to get far in figuring out what you’re after here.

BTW, Catholic thinking is not that a bloody sacrifice was required. In fact, the “atonement” is the way it sounds-to bring man back “at one” with God and God could’ve accomplished this anyway He chose.

He chose to lower Himself -to come down here with us-the holy, perfect, and innocent One who man originally sinned against and hated without reason, risking the suffering and death which He knew would come when such a holy, perfect, and innocent One entered a world like this. It was a drama that dramatically and in no uncertain terms revealed Gods love and desire that we all come to know and love Him eternally but it was a drama which was played out by Him on the stage of real life-in case we thought He was rather aloof and maybe not even real. The point is that mans’ enemy turns out to be * himself*-his problem is spiritual- and only God can save him.

Maybe you’ve been privileged to know God in a closer or more direct manner than most. I had such a privilege during a moment many years ago, where God enrapt me in His love. There was much more to it and this experience transcended anything I thought I knew about God but it never meant a separation from the teachings of the Church. It tended to confirm them and draw me nearer, in fact. I think that in my very first post to you in another thread, I asked if you weren’t reacting to a mean and self-righteous world, the one Jesus came to heal rather than condemn. I still think you are.

 

[uglygal]

Gal, you’ve got to admit, with all of your many threads, there’s a repetitive provocative tone which can be annoying. I mean, your in a Catholic forum often attacking belief in Jesus-not just questioning it. Even at that, I apologize if I offended you. Many of us have tried to get you to see what and why they believe and you have some decent questions and insights which get us thinking and which often seem to come from your heart and it’s not that most of us lack love for you but we don’t seem to get far in figuring out what you’re after here.

BTW, Catholic thinking is not that a bloody sacrifice was required. In fact, the “atonement” is the way it sounds-to bring man back “at one” with God and God could’ve accomplished this anyway He chose.

He chose to lower Himself -to come down here with us-the holy, perfect, and innocent One who man originally sinned against and hated without reason, risking the suffering and death which He knew would come when such a holy, perfect, and innocent One entered a world like this. It was a drama that dramatically and in no uncertain terms revealed Gods love and desire that we all come to know and love Him eternally but it was a drama which was played out by Him on the stage of real life-in case we thought He was rather aloof and maybe not even real. The point is that mans’ enemy turns out to be * himself*-his problem is spiritual- and only God can save him.

Maybe you’ve been privileged to know God in a closer or more direct manner than most. I had such a privilege during a moment many years ago, where God enrapt me in His love. There was much more to it and this experience transcended anything I thought I knew about God but it never meant a separation from the teachings of the Church. It tended to confirm them and draw me nearer, in fact. I think that in my very first post to you in another thread, I asked if you weren’t reacting to a mean and self-righteous world, the one Jesus came to heal rather than condemn. I still think you are.

Thanks for telling me I’m sorry if I come across as provocative.
May I ask, is questioning faith in Jesus the same as attacking it? to most christians it is. and yes I admit and confess that sometimes I do get more angry in response to what I can’t help but see as lies about God.
I have often posted that I don’t intend to offend or anger people (i posted that in this thread too see. posts #6,28,38,71) What else can I do to make my intentions clearer?

 

[uglygal]

Hi GraceDK I’ll try to answer your question … here it goes

Really?
Why?

Do you also find the Ten Commandments disturbing in themselves when you read your Bible?
or is your dislike more a consequence of the fact that the commandments are presented by a Protestant brother here?

No and No … I don’t find the ten commandments disturbing and I don’t dislike that the man is a protestant

My own belief, according to what I read about the first Christians, is that you have to make people recognize their need of salvation, their own sinfulness and unability to do anything good, in order for them to be able to embrace the Saviour Jesus.
It may be politically incorrect to make people feel guilty… but the Church is not political. Its supposed to teach truth. Truth will convict first in order to set free afterwards with a true freedom.

I think I found disturbing the way it was done in the clip … how did it go?
Q. have you stolen before?
A. no, or maybe something small like a piece of gum
Q. you stole, you broke the command, what does that make you?
A. I don’t know
Q. makes you a thief and a robber doesn’t it?
A. i guess, yeah it does
Q. and where are you going?
A. umm, to hell
Q. thats right

The preacher must view God as very legalistic … a kid perhaps nicked some gum, felt attracted to a woman (which is natural and a desire given to us by God) and Jesus had to save him from that? or else he deserved hell. I think the way it was presented to a young boy was harsh, incorrect and that disturbed me a little. That’s me opinion and impression, I don’t mind if others disagree

I would perhaps have put it in another way because my understanding of the Father (God) is different to this.

Preacher UglyGal (“PUG” from now on)

PUG: have you stolen before?
A. no, or maybe something small like a piece of gum
PUG. you stole, you broke the command to not steal do you know that?
A. I don’t know, yes I guess
PUG. what does that mean?
A. um I don’t know I took something
PUG: that makes you …?
A. um a thief a robber
PUG: yes, perhaps technically but what does it really make you?
A. um i dont know?
PUG: it makes you someone who has failed to love another by taking something from them without asking them or paying for it. We can fail to love in big things and little things.
A. yeah I guess
PUG: did you know that failing to love is failing to be like God? Everytime we fail to love we fail to be as beautiful as God intends and created us to be?
A. maybe, i don’t know?
PUG: did you know a child of the Father is destined for beauty and must be a prism through which the Father’s love radiates to others?
A. no, I was taught I’m sinful and damned and had to be saved
PUG: the only thing you need to be saved from is failure to love and failure to know and give love. Didn’t anyone teach you that?
A. no
PUG: The Father gave His word to teach us and guide us … if you look there you will find how you can ‘make up’ for your failure to love
A. um, what? i don’t see?
PUG: look in your own christian bible … “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”. “Today salvation has come to this house”.

Now tell me why you did not like the clip… as for me I love to see a man get spurred on and reflect on his own existence

there, i hope it makes sense. i suppose people react in different ways. If a preacher came up to me and had that conversation with me … lol, but maybe that’s just me. Maybe some people need the fire and brimstone because … i don’t know. I don’t get it


ps. no offence intended