Why is Jesus necessary?

[fhansen]

The Jews know their scripture, they know their tradition, the messiah was promised to them … and they do not see Jesus as necessary

So some of us are still wondering if yourself or reen await the messiah as the Jews do and if so for what purpose.

 

[reen12]

God has granted a palette of song. Some lift the heart and make it glad.
The whole self caught up, in praise and love of God. Beings, He created, offering praise.

Part of this varied palette, are the hues provided by choral music.
God has made us, in such a way, that we can sing to Him.

Was looking for the spiritual, Didn’t My Lord Deliver Daniel.
Here are combined choirs, that I found on the net, singing of Daniel and his Lord.

video.aol.com/video-detail/didnt-my-lord-deliver-daniel/1838276486

At 27 seconds, into this work - this is what the heavenly
choirs must sing out. Absolutely beautiful.

reen12

 

[uglygal]

uglygal;3663093:

I have been thinking about this alot lately … ultimately why is he necessary?

I have found that he was necessary when I believed God the Father was a nasty vengeful sadistic monster that was willing and waiting at every turn to damn me to hell - Jesus was necessary as the scapegoat of God’s wrath to take the punishment for me and therefore ‘save’ me.

Hi,

Ive wondered about this question for a long time myself. unlike most people i have a very strong devotion to, and love for God the father. And like you say he does love us… unconditionaly! But I’ve found that Jesus is necessary because God is both “mercifull”
and “JUST”. And Jesus is where God’s mercy and justice meet…

“Justice” because the price for our disobedience (in Adam and Eve) had to be paid. And “mercy” because God became man and paid that price Himself.

Isn’t that beatifull? …Hope that helps ye!

                                                              God bless!!

thankyou, very beautiful indeed

I have at times forgotten to love for the sake of love and for the sole purpose that God wills it. I am sorry for that to everyone here and I ask for your forgiveness.

 

[fhansen]

The Jews know their scripture, they know their tradition, the messiah was promised to them … and they do not see Jesus as necessary

So on this question of whether or not a messiah is necessary, some of us are still wondering if you-and this question would be for reen, too- await the messiah as the Jews do and if so for what purpose.

 

[uglygal]

So on this question of whether or not a messiah is necessary, some of us are still wondering if you-and this question would be for reen, too- await the messiah as the Jews do and if so for what purpose.

The Messiah awaited by the Jews seems to be an entirely different conception to that of the Christian “Messiah”

jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

For this reason it appears, the Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah as Christians do. Please have a look at the link to see what appears to me be the Jewish understanding of messiah … i’m sorry I found it easier to post a link rather than write and write but I think it’s fairly concise, and more to the point, it’s written by a Jewish source.

and this one, although it’s Wiki so it may be dubious
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism

essentially the Jews - the one’s who received the promise of Messiah, the law and who were chosen by God, expect a fully human, political leader who will usher in an era of world peace. When examining Jesus and whether He is what Christianity claims He is, isn’t it common sense to first look at the Torah, the OT, the Jewish tradition, theology and conception of “messiah” and then look forward at whether Jesus fullfills these?
Wouldn’t it make little sense to first look at Christianity and then interpret Judaism according to what fits with your beliefs … something I am aware Christians have to put up with much from Muslims.

Perhaps if I could rephrase it, Christians reject Islam because it is inconsistent with Christian theology and Muslim’s interpret Christian scripture and traditions in selective ways, usually ignoring the context of passages.

Don’t Christian’s do the same to Jews, when Jews have consistently held for some 2,000 years that Jesus is not the Messiah?

jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-concept.html

I think I first need to know who is the Messiah and what is he accurately before I can say I await him
If the Messiah is what the Jews hold him to be, I can’t see at all what he has to do with people who are dead and whether they get into heaven.

 

[beckycmarie]

I read that link about the Jews awaiting the Messiah. Sounds like what they are waiting for is very similar to what Christians are expecting when Jesus returns.

 

[sawman]

Dear UglyGal,
I would just want to mention that Jesus was accepted as Messiah by the Jews.
He(Jesus) was a Jew. He preached to Jews exclusively, with very few exceptions. He was believed to be the Messiah, as He claimed He was, and he was believed to be God as well. Gentiles did not really become much of significant part of the believers until decades had passed.
There are literaly hundreds of scriptural prophecies that Jesus claims to have fulfilled and that those same Jews believed He fulfiled.
What do you think about that?

I’m glad you came back to the thread.
Tom

 

[reen12]

Uglygal, I ask God to bless and to care for you.

I am glad that sawman is posting to your thread.
I think that he has a good heart.

My own heart is conflicted, when it comes to Jesus.
The religious education that I was subjected to
created a wound too deep to deal with in this life.
Wounded in mind, I sometimes speak of Jesus -
because my mind can see what my heart cannot.
I leave this reality in the hands of God.

Yet whatever the reality is, Jesus told those who
follow Him to love one another in the way that He loved.

I’m leaving CAF now, for I think that my posts are
not at all helpful - or even relevant, to those who are sure,
in mind and heart, that Jesus is God/Son of God.

Kindest regards,

reen12

 

[GraceDK]

Dear **Reen…**Why are you leaving my friend? Are the wounds really so deep that you cannot accept comfort? Maybe you should join the “family forum” and write about your struggles and suffering. I did so once while I was deeply depressed and I got so comforted… This particular forum, where everyone is shouting against each other with different world views will of course only leave you more confused.

To the rest of you.
There is an idea here that Jews should be heard when it comes to the Messianic expectation and Jesus. And that is fair enough. I then urge everyone of you to watch these objective debates between a very famous Jewish rabbi who does not believe Jesus was the Messiah, and a very famous Jewish dr. who does believe Jesus is the messiah. Both are Jews. Both are very knowlegable and worth listening to.
Just lean back and watch and listen to a few 5 minute debates:

youtube.com/watch?v=pgv0Wkb47JE

Peace,
Grace

 

[uglygal]

Uglygal, I ask God to bless and to care for you.

I am glad that sawman is posting to your thread.
I think that he has a good heart.

My own heart is conflicted, when it comes to Jesus.
The religious education that I was subjected to
created a wound too deep to deal with in this life.
Wounded in mind, I sometimes speak of Jesus -
because my mind can see what my heart cannot.
I leave this reality in the hands of God.

Yet whatever the reality is, Jesus told those who
follow Him to love one another in the way that He loved.

I’m leaving CAF now, for I think that my posts are
not at all helpful - or even relevant, to those who are sure,
in mind and heart, that Jesus is God/Son of God.

Kindest regards,

reen12

May God bless you and care for you too Reen :hug3:

I can relate to your conflict very very much and this conflict has come out in CA. I guess people have witnessed an internal war of sorts.

I pray God will give you peace Reen

Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him. The LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.

 

[sawman]

Dear Reen,

I will miss you and your insight greiviously.

If there is anything I can do for you please get ahold of me.

I won’t bother you with my messy responses.

I consider you to be a good friend, I hope the back and forth here has not harmed you.

I think though that you are mistaken about your posts and their helpfulness.

May God bless you!
May He keep you!
May He make His eyes to shine upon you and give you peace!

Till we meet again in His love,
You know the place.
A broad Green Pasture under bright blue skies!!

 

[reen12]

Don’t you understand, sawman? It was you and another
poster, from other threads, that I did not wish to possibly
hurt, with my confusing posts.

One of the reasons that I opted for not continuing to post
is because I know that what I say can be confusing to read.
One moment, I speak as a Christian, the next I identify with
Judaic thought, the third and fourth positions being ‘God exists
and cares for us but that is about all that we can know of Him’
and a strain of agnosticism, at times.
I am seriously ill, mentally and psychologically. Have been
in therapy for 12 plus years, and will likely be in same for
many more. Sought care, at age 19, but what is understood, now -
about the workings of the mind - was not known then.

I was startled, when I again sought treatment, at age 48.
What was now understood was light years in advance of
what was known, in 1965. Within three appointments,
I began to comprehend what had happened to me.

I am highly “dissociated.” I have experienced what is known
as 'depersonalization" and “derealization” since the age of 19.
When I look at my hand, for instance, it doesn’t seem part of me.
I don’t go out much, because younger ‘parts’ of me get scared.
This is why the internet is a blessing for me. I can talk to
people without having to go out in the world. I confine most of
my going out to shopping trips.
The world around me looks like a stage set. It doesn’t look real.
Because of trauma as a child, and continual massive levels
of stress, parts of me “broke off.” My sense of self is not integrated,
[a ‘whole’] - as it is for others. I have lived with this for well over 50 years.

How is it, that I can understand why someone would pray solely to God,
without reference to Jesus?
Because what I was taught of Him made me recoil in fear. It was a terrible
experience for a child, and it lasted for years.

To me, it’s a miracle that I can have a clear thought about Jesus at all.
The religious education of the time, piled the weight of terror on a child who was already very ill.
There are parts of me that loathe Christianity. The only way that I can
see Jesus, as possibly being who he said he was, is in his passion and death.

The reason that I think you are a good heart is because you act like Him.
The only thing that brings any kind of logic for me, is to know that those who live by and act by the letter of the law, will be judged by that same letter.

I can see Jesus as Messiah, when I read Revelations.
“Glory to the Lamb who was slain…” Honor and power and glory be His."
Somehow, the words of Revelation speak to me - as the gospels, outside
of the account of the Passion, do not - with the exception of a few of
the incidents, in the life of Jesus, which I comment on, in my posts, sometimes.

God gave me an insight, a while ago. I saw myself seated on
a curb, near the local Rescue Mission. In the insight given, God said to me
“Stay where you are. Don’t move. I’m coming to bring you home with Me.”
So I sit on the curb and wait for Him. Possibly only those who are very ill in mind might see this for the blessing it was and is.

God bless you sawman. You are like Him.

reens

 

[GraceDK]

Dear Reens.
Maybe you should try to find a priest or pastor who is very known and recognized and who has the gift of healing. Then he could pray for you in the Name of Jesus and you might be set free from your illness. Such things really do happen today… just like in the NewTestament.

I am really sorry to hear about your suffering… but happy that Jesus comforted you by telling you that He will take care of you… Oh He loves you beyond measure and understanding. You are held in the embrace of this Love all through your life…

God bless you.

 

[Valke2]

, and a very famous Jewish dr. who does believe Jesus is the messiah. Both are Jews. Both are very knowlegable and worth listening to.
Just lean back and watch and listen to a few 5 minute debates:

youtube.com/watch?v=pgv0Wkb47JE

Peace,
Grace

Never heard of this guy. And the link wasn’t to a debate. Just one guy speaking.

 

[reen12]

quote: GraceDK

I am really sorry to hear about your suffering… but happy that Jesus comforted you
by telling you that He will take care of you… Oh He loves you beyond measure and understanding.
You are held in the embrace of this Love all through your life…

Thank you, GraceDK. It wasn’t Jesus, it was God, Who gave me the insight.
[A Christian would say “God the Father.”]
I leave it in His hands, as to Jesus. I said in my first post to this thread,
in relation to Jesus:

quote: reen12

Unlike some religious entities, He actually
does see us as an individual. He hears the
little frightened noises of His sheep.

Mostly, He has to sit there and remain silent,
so a little sheep can decide if it is safe to go near Him.
A very young part of me is likey to say to Him
“Are you a bad rat?” They said You were."

And if He is Who He said He was, He is likely to reply
“I’ll let you decide. Would you like to sit here with Me?”
His voice doesn’t sound scarey. So the little sheep
comes closer, sits near Him, and falls asleep.

I figure that if Jesus is truly God/Son of God, then He loves
little sheep who have been so ill since childhood,
and He will have the love and the patience to wait til a little sheep comes home.

reen12

 

[GraceDK]

quote: GraceDK

Thank you, GraceDK. It wasn’t Jesus, it was God, Who gave me the insight.
[A Christian would say “God the Father.”]
I leave it in His hands, as to Jesus. I said in my first post to this thread,
in relation to Jesus:

quote: reen12

I figure that if Jesus is truly God/Son of God, then He loves
little sheep who have been so ill since childhood,
and He will have the love and the patience to wait til a little sheep comes home.

reen12

Dear Reen…
You have good wisdom.
Its said that its especially the little sheep who come to Jesus and He embraces them and carries them on His shoulders when they are tired, and when they are lost He searches for them until He finds them. Its said that God has no favourites, but its clear that Jesus has a special love for the little and weak sheeps… He is especially united with the suffering and ill people. He is not dangerous in any way. He is the Comforter. He lets the child sit at his feet silently or rest in His arms while sleeping. His Name actually means Saviour.
He and the Father are One and in agreement…

 

[reen12]

quote: GraceDK

Are the wounds really so deep that you cannot accept comfort? Maybe you should join the “family forum” and write about your struggles and suffering. I did so once while I was deeply depressed and I got so comforted…

I’m sorry that I missed reading this post, GraceDK.
To know what deep depression is, from experience,
will, I have found, make you that more prepared to
speak to others about the love and the mercy of God.
God so often turns suffering, in this way, to pure gold.

I have found, too, that being severely ill in mind, does help to
understand the Passion of Jesus. Does help to learn what
mercy is.

When mercy is seen as “softness,” where the rigors of
doctrine do not apply, because the person is too ill,
a kind of puzzlement may follow. The ill in mind may not
“fit” the “doctrine.” As if God relates to human beings
as “units,” and not as those He has uniquely created
to live for eternity with Him.
A given reality is referred to as “normative,” because it
“fits” for most people. Mass, devotions, the sacraments,
bring grace to the soul. For those with health of mind,
anything 'outside the box" of doctrine may be considered
outré, in terms of a doctrinally “acceptable way” of relating to God.

I’m here to say that, if one is looking for Jesus, they may
find Him, sometimes, outside the box - in an alleyway, with one
who is seeking food from a dumpster. My God! He missed Mass! Standing alongside a man, half-laying on a stone bench, outside a shopping mall, in the cold of late autumn. In a bar, at 3 in the morning, where sometimes people in great psychological pain
are self-medicating with alcohol.

I was visiting my father, who had paranoid schizophrenia,
on locked wards, at the age of 19. I have know many who are
severly ill, as well. Exactly 30 years later, I too spent time
on a psychiatrict unit, for 12 days. I saw more genuine
charity, in my fellow patients, than I have ever seen in one place.
Christ crucified was up and walking around in those dear souls.

reen12

 

[sawman]

Dear Reen,UglyGal,and all,

I hardly know what to say, Reen.

You are embarassing me. I think you have been too generous in your characterization of me. I thank you for your kind thoughts and the way you have expressed them.

I have realized during the course of this thread and a couple of others, that I have not always had the “eyes to see, and the ears to hear”. God in His goodness has given me teaching through youall to grow in Charity. I’m sorry I’ve had to learn at your expense.Please forgive me for any discomfort I’ve you.

Reen I would rather you not take a leave from our discussion. It is true that I don’t always understand your posts. That’s O.K. Understanding is not the only thing being communicated, and I can appreciate despite my poor ability to understand.

I think all of us would be poorer without your contribution to this thread. Jesus I’m sure has been following your posts with bated breath. Believe me, He thinks He is necessary.

We may not always be very good at communicating what we’re trying to say, but we must surely never get tired of trying to love each other.

Thanks, Tom

 

[fhansen]

Don’t you understand, sawman? It was you and another
poster, from other threads, that I did not wish to possibly
hurt, with my confusing posts.

One of the reasons that I opted for not continuing to post
is because I know that what I say can be confusing to read.
One moment, I speak as a Christian, the next I identify with
Judaic thought, the third and fourth positions being ‘God exists
and cares for us but that is about all that we can know of Him’
and a strain of agnosticism, at times.
I am seriously ill, mentally and psychologically. Have been
in therapy for 12 plus years, and will likely be in same for
many more. Sought care, at age 19, but what is understood, now -
about the workings of the mind - was not known then.

I was startled, when I again sought treatment, at age 48.
What was now understood was light years in advance of
what was known, in 1965. Within three appointments,
I began to comprehend what had happened to me.

I am highly “dissociated.” I have experienced what is known
as 'depersonalization" and “derealization” since the age of 19.
When I look at my hand, for instance, it doesn’t seem part of me.
I don’t go out much, because younger ‘parts’ of me get scared.
This is why the internet is a blessing for me. I can talk to
people without having to go out in the world. I confine most of
my going out to shopping trips.
The world around me looks like a stage set. It doesn’t look real.
Because of trauma as a child, and continual massive levels
of stress, parts of me “broke off.” My sense of self is not integrated,
[a ‘whole’] - as it is for others. I have lived with this for well over 50 years.

How is it, that I can understand why someone would pray solely to God,
without reference to Jesus?
Because what I was taught of Him made me recoil in fear. It was a terrible
experience for a child, and it lasted for years.

To me, it’s a miracle that I can have a clear thought about Jesus at all.
The religious education of the time, piled the weight of terror on a child who was already very ill.
There are parts of me that loathe Christianity. The only way that I can
see Jesus, as possibly being who he said he was, is in his passion and death.

The reason that I think you are a good heart is because you act like Him.
The only thing that brings any kind of logic for me, is to know that those who live by and act by the letter of the law, will be judged by that same letter.

I can see Jesus as Messiah, when I read Revelations.
“Glory to the Lamb who was slain…” Honor and power and glory be His."
Somehow, the words of Revelation speak to me - as the gospels, outside
of the account of the Passion, do not - with the exception of a few of
the incidents, in the life of Jesus, which I comment on, in my posts, sometimes.

God gave me an insight, a while ago. I saw myself seated on
a curb, near the local Rescue Mission. In the insight given, God said to me
“Stay where you are. Don’t move. I’m coming to bring you home with Me.”
So I sit on the curb and wait for Him. Possibly only those who are very ill in mind might see this for the blessing it was and is.

God bless you sawman. You are like Him.

reens

Reen, you’re a gentle and intelligent soul. You riled me sometimes but I won’t mind that at all if you decide to keep on posting and it helps you. Well, I might mind it a bit sometimes but I’ll try not to and I wish you well in any case.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

how is eloquence of the tongue proof of whether your a person of God? Afterall Moses said, “I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue”.

If one doesn’t know what one is talking about, one can’t convey what one doesn’t know.

I’m not asking for eloquence. I’m simply asking for simple answers to simple questions.

all your questions have christian assumptions, Jesus is needed or we’re all going to sheol, union with God is impossible except though jesus, God has a son that needs to be shown, anyone who is not christian is partially if not wholly blind. Those who are not christian have a right to ask why?

If you don’t believe in God’s revelation as given in scripture, then there really isn’t much to argue about, is there?

Those who are not Christian don’t understand why revelation is revelation. Until they are given the grace, by God, to understand that revelation is revelation (of truth), then nothing a Christian says about Christian matters means a thing to them.

The Jews know their scripture, they know their tradition, the messiah was promised to them … and they do not see Jesus as necessary

simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm

And that’s perfectly fine!

That they haven’t been given the grace to know the truth as truth is just a reason to be all the more charitable to them in their deficiency.

I was wondering can you direct me to the OT where God says all people are going to Sheol or the beaitific vision is impossible before Jesus. I haven’t come across anything to that effect but I might be wrong. Thanks

Where does the “OT” say that the souls of the dead go? You can do your own research. I’m sure there are several references much better than me in Catholic.com as regards “sheol”, Beatific vision", “Jesus opening heaven”, etc…

I was thinking that maybe for the sake of peace and not offending people we should agree to disagree. I’m not aware I’m breaking any forum rules but if the question offends many then maybe someone should dob me in and get me kicked off. Or better yet, my lips are sealed :getholy:

I’m not offended in the least by your postings. You show your level of understanding of what it means to be a Christian quite well in your postings. Please continue to ask questions, but don’t forget that the reason to ask questions is to learn something.

Thanks.