Why is Masonry evil?

[Sixtus]

Thistle posted:

THE CHURCH CLEARLY TEACHES THAT CATHOLICS CANNOT BE FREEMASONS. IF THEY BECOME A FREEMASON THEN THEY HAVE COMMITTED A GRAVE SIN.*

My dear Thistle, are you sure you are Catholic, only you are using the classic techneques expounded by the SDA Worlds Last Chance.

They prosecute by muddying the waters through introducing conufounded variables.

This has nothing to do with whether Catholics can become freemasons [though I do not believe your spurious documents], this is all about whether a Catholic can associate with freemasons.

I have many friends whose ideologies are juxtapositioned. I will not abandon them or not associate with them because they are Muslims, Athiests, Freemasons [of varying degrees and chapters], Round Table, agnostic etc. I thank God for the diversity of friends. I respect their beliefs and differences. I recognise that before God, contrary to your gospel , we are all equal.

 

[Hellisreal]

Dear Sixtus,

I challenge you to prove that a Catholic can be a Mason.

You said it here, and notwithstanding your backpedalling, you did say it.

I am challenging you sir, to prove to the faithful that Masonry is compatible with the Catholic Church.

 

[Sixtus]

hell is real posted:

am challenging you sir, to prove to the faithful that Masonry is compatible with the Catholic Church.

I have absolutely no intention of even trying because you are so biggotted that in my hard experience from the troubles in former times from N Ireland, it is impossble to have any serious dialogue because the other side ask questions when realy they are not prepared to listen to reasoned evidenced and reasonable arguements.

They ask the question only to obtain it as a stick to beat you with. At heart they are just spoiling for a fight.

But I will ask you why it is incompatible for me to associate with, go to lunch in and enter dialogue with freemasons about my Catholic faith. I have spent several hours discussing and doing Catholic Apologetics with Freemasons.

How much aplogetics have you done?

What is your HARD EXPERIENCE of freemasonry? If you say ‘none’ then I will accuse you of being biggotted in prosecuting on the basis of heresay evidence which is not permitted in any court in the land. If you say you read about it, then I will accuse you of following blind prejudice. If you tell me you have looked and listened and know for a fact from your experiences then I will apologise, beg your forgiveness and remain in your debt forever.

In the mean time I shall continue to do apologetics with freemasonry. I will also continue to support my friends who are freemasons in line with the teachings of Holy Mother Church

 

[Sixtus]

hell is real posted:

am challenging you sir, to prove to the faithful that Masonry is compatible with the Catholic Church.

I have absolutely no intention of even trying because your replies suggest you are biggotted. Though I do respect your integrity for reflecting and asking. But in my hard experience from the troubles in former times from N Ireland, it is impossble to have any serious dialogue because the other side ask questions when realy they are not prepared to listen to reasoned evidenced and reasonable arguements.

They ask the question only to obtain it as a stick to beat you with. At heart they are just spoiling for a fight.

But I will ask you why it is incompatible for me to associate with, go to lunch in and enter dialogue with freemasons about my Catholic faith. I have spent several hours discussing and doing Catholic Apologetics with Freemasons.

How much aplogetics have you done with freemasonry?

In the mean time I shall continue to do apologetics with freemasonry. I will also continue to support my friends who are freemasons in line with the teachings of Holy Mother Church

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

hell is real posted:

I have absolutely no intention of even trying because your replies suggest you are biggotted. Though I do respect your integrity for reflecting and asking. But in my hard experience from the troubles in former times from N Ireland, it is impossble to have any serious dialogue because the other side ask questions when realy they are not prepared to listen to reasoned evidenced and reasonable arguements.

They ask the question only to obtain it as a stick to beat you with. At heart they are just spoiling for a fight.

But I will ask you why it is incompatible for me to associate with, go to lunch in and enter dialogue with freemasons about my Catholic faith. I have spent several hours discussing and doing Catholic Apologetics with Freemasons.

How much aplogetics have you done with freemasonry?

In the mean time I shall continue to do apologetics with freemasonry. I will also continue to support my friends who are freemasons in line with the teachings of Holy Mother Church

You may have stated previously, but frankly I am too lazy too look, how can you be a Catholic in good standing if you reject the teachings of no less than three popes?

 

[Sixtus]

Your texts you quote are ancient and have been superceded.

You quote from a time when freemasonry was a SECRET SOCIETY. Catholic teaching forbade its members to belong to any secret society.

Your quotes also relate to a time when freemasonry was exclusory in that Church taught that it was wrong to belong to an organisation whose membership was not open. This is no longer the case. Anyone is elgible to join.

Church also forbade alternative participation in alternative religions. This is no longer the case. Freemasonry has given up any religioous ritual except for praising Almighty God, But according to the document, a Catholic freemason is not allowed to behave as if it were secret, he has a duty to inform his pp and and seek guidance from his spiritual director.

I will quote the source in due course, It is now 5.30 am in UK, I have been posting all night on CAF. I have now to get ready and go to work. Post again during my tea and lunch break

God bless and good night/morning

 

[Sixtus]

Just one reply before I go to work, freemasonry isnt my thing., It doesnt do anything for me. I prefer the Catenians. But our spiritual director is as much against the Catenians as he is freemasonry

Funny old world

 

[thistle]

hell is real posted:

I have absolutely no intention of even trying because your replies suggest you are biggotted. Though I do respect your integrity for reflecting and asking. But in my hard experience from the troubles in former times from N Ireland, it is impossble to have any serious dialogue because the other side ask questions when realy they are not prepared to listen to reasoned evidenced and reasonable arguements.

They ask the question only to obtain it as a stick to beat you with. At heart they are just spoiling for a fight.

But I will ask you why it is incompatible for me to associate with, go to lunch in and enter dialogue with freemasons about my Catholic faith. I have spent several hours discussing and doing Catholic Apologetics with Freemasons.

How much aplogetics have you done with freemasonry?

In the mean time I shall continue to do apologetics with freemasonry. I will also continue to support my friends who are freemasons in line with the teachings of Holy Mother Church

Nobody said you cannot associate with people who are Masons. Where in the thread did anyone say that? Even Jesus associated with sinners. How else could he hope to change their hearts and convert them.
The thread subject is Why Is Masonry Evil? We have explained to you why (not only in this thread but in several others). You stupidly try to claim the Church documents are forgeries. Utter rubbish and you only make yourself look silly by sticking to such a claim.
As I said you are trying to divert people away from the topic. NOBODY said the Church teaches you cannot associate with someone who is a Freemason. The Church teaches a Catholic cannot become a Freemason or they will committing a grave sin.
There is a world of difference between associating with a Mason and becoming a Mason. Try to keep to the topic disussion.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Sixtus,

I’ve read through this thread. I think you owe the posters here a sincere apology. I do understand that we can get carried away and say things which afterward we regret. I sincerely pray that you regret the accusations you laid against your fellow Catholics.

That being said, I know somethings about the Freemasons. I’m by no means an expert. But there really are really only four things good Catholics need to know about the Masons so that they know they must make a choice between the Masons or Mother Church.

First, Voltaire.

Second, they have been the driving force behind many severe physical attacks against the Church.

Three, they are Deists at best who make up their own new religion.

Four, the Church has spoken against Catholics being part of them and for excellent reasons.

I think even Sixtus realizes, at least I hope he does, that his over the top tirades about the Church hating people are vapid and hateful.

CDL

 

[Tomster]

Thistle posted:

I am sorry Thistle but you are completly in error.

No way does Holy Mother Church forbid Catholics from being freemasons any more than she does being members of golf club.

You forget that the last time this was raised, someone posted documents allegedly from Rome with a ‘Roman’ seal on them which proved to be forgeries. I think it is rather sad that fellow Catholics are so desperate to prosecute their position that they are prepared to forge Vatican documents to prove their case.

That is actually a very serious crime and ‘the ends definitely do not justify the means!’

Anyone can hold onto supersitious belief lies fantasies and self deception. What you cannot do is expect the Vatican to endorse it. By the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Holy Church does not forbid members from being freemasons. Any view to the contrary is not authentic Catholic teaching.

I will not discuss personal points of view which have no basis in reality. If anyone is so predjudiced then that is between them and Almighty God. As for His Holy Church, they cannot use the Church to prosecute their own self-deception.

Don’t forget, I had this checked out by a canon lawyer in union with Rome! I do not think that her teachers of the law would err

"By sermons and Pastoral Letters instruct the people as to the artifices used by societies of this kind in seducing men and enticing them into their ranks, and as to the depravity of their opinions and the wickedness of their acts. As Our Predecessors have many times repeated, let no man think that he may for any reason whatsoever join the Masonic sect, if he values his Catholic name and his eternal salvation as he ought to value them . . .

Further, by assiduous teaching and exhortation, the multitude must be drawn to learn diligently the precepts of religion . . . By uniting the efforts of both clergy and laity, strive, Venerable Brethren, to make men thoroughly know and love the Church; for the greater their knowledge and love of the Church, the more will they be turned away from clandestine societies."

Pope Leo XIII - Predecessor of Pope John Paul II - Excerpt from his Encyclical Letter “Humanum Genus”.

 

[Tomster]

Simple question.

Pope Leo XIII, in his Encyclical “Humanum Genus,” uses an image to begin his consideration of the topic, the image used by St. Augustine in “The City of God,” that of the opposition between two cities. The same image is encountered in the “Spiritual Exercises” of St. Ignatius. The human race is divided into two hostile camps:

“The race of man, after its miserable fall from God, the Creator and the Giver of heavenly gifts, ‘through the envy of the devil,’ separated into two diverse and opposite parts, of which the one steadfastly contends for truth and virtue, the other for those things which are contrary to virtue and to truth. The one is the kingdom og God on earth, namely, the true Church of Jesus Christ . . . The other is the kingdom of Satan.”

The Pope developes his simple, limpid description:

“This twofold kingdom St. Augustine keenly discerned described after the manner of two cities, contrary in their laws because striving for contrary objects; and with subtle brevity he expressed the efficient cause of each . . .”

He quotes St. Augustine:

“Two loves formed two cities: the love of self, reaching even to contempt of God, an earthly city; and the love of God, reaching to contempt of self, a heavenly one.”

So they are exactly contrary. For the love of God we hold ourselves in contempt, the despises himself; while, on the contrary, Satan carries the love of self, self-centeredness, to contempt of God and opposition to him:

“At every period of time each has been in conflict with the other, with a variety and multiplicity of weapons, and of warfare, although not always with equal ardor and assault.”

The Pope describes the two cities by drawing upon the text of St. Augustine and the history of the Church:

“At this period, the partisans of evil seem to be combining together, and to be struggling with united vehemence, led on or assisted by that strongly organized and widespread association called the Freemasons.”

Thus, Leo XIII characterizes the society of the Freemasons by calling it the city of the devil, the city of Satan. He specifies their goals:

“No longer making any secret of their purposes, they are now bolding rising up against God Himself. They are planning the destruction of the holy Church publicly and openly; and this with the set purpose of utterly despoiling the nations of Christendom, if it were possible, of the blessings obtained for us through Jesus Christ our Savior.”

Faced with these facts, and confronted with such an urgent situation, the Pope concludes that as Sovereign Pontiff it is his duty to raise the hue and cry:

" . . . it is Our office to point out the danger, to mark who are the adversaries, and to the best of Our power to make head against their plans and devices . . . that the kingdom of Jesus Christ entrusted to Our charge may not only stand and remain whole, but may be enlarged by an ever-increasing growth throughout the world."

 

[Tomster]

Might we have the source of this particular tid-bit? Not a standard charge, and something I am unfamilliar with, as it does not exist in the Blue Lodge, nor either the Scottish Rite or York Rite. Not even the Shriners have such a requirement, which, btw, is itself against the ethos of Freemasonry.

Freemasonry is absolutely forbidden to Catholics, such is clear for any who wish to research it from Church sources. However, as always, there is no need to repeat invented material; what actually exists, and is proudly proclaimed by masons, is sufficient enough.

The cheif reason Masons “persist of set purpose in impenitence” is that Masonry itself demands the free practice of an individual in whatever religion they choose without any restriction (all the while instilling the concept that all religion is a man-made phenomena, and revelation non-existent in the historical sense). Like in many things these days, they are simply following their mis-formed “consience”. No need to repent of an “error” which their enlightened mind tells them is no error, and that those who oppose their opinion are simply “behind the times” or otherwise superstitious ignorants (sound familliar?)

At any rate, the very philosophy which garners the condemnation of the Church is the same philosophy which would itself condemn the supposed oath mentioned above.

Thus, why I’d, personally, like to know where the “quotation” comes from

“The Catechism Explained - An Exhaustive Explanation of the Catholic Religion” - Spirago-Clarke

 

[Sixtus]

Noah 1 posted:

You may have stated previously, but frankly I am too lazy too look, how can you be a Catholic in good standing if you reject the teachings of no less than three popes?

Jesus loves you.

Ps please accept my profound apologies. I am very sorry for being unable to acknowledge you by your full title, that to me is next to blasphemy

 

[BobP123]

My philosophy teacher said it looks good at first but as you move up the rank in freemasonry you get involved with people like KKK and the ultimate goal of freemasonry is to kill the Pope.

Yes, one of the steps in achieving the 32nd degree is to stab the skulls of a king and a pope with a sword. It was mistaken that Vatican II relaxed the rules of Catholics becoming Freemasons but recently the Vatican reinforced those rules. You cannot be a Freemason and a Catholic.

 

[BJRumph]

I, too had a Canon Lawyer tell me there was no “problem”, albiet on the fact that I was a Mason becoming a Catholic, therefore the Canon restrictions regarding a Catholic becoming a Mason didn’t actually apply.

However, as I came to realize through ardent study, the Church’s position regarding Masonry is not a simple canonical treatment which can be circumvented through such loopholes as above, or hoping for a disciplinary change, but based upon foundational, and critical, differences in belief which make the two radically incompatable.

It is too bad that one wants to represent themselves as being a representative of Church teaching to Masons, when from what has been displayed here is a deliberate misrepresentation of what it teaches.

It is also too bad that you identify the pointing out of error as being “bigotry” as it has the unfortunate consequence of defaming the very Lord you claim to be representing. As others have mentioned, there is no restriction on your associations with Masons, but there are quite obvious ones to your becoming a Mason.

Masonry has not changed its character as you suppose, despite American Masonry’s desire to distance themselves from the “excesses” of Continental Masonry. All proclaim their being one happy union gladly, even if there is a distinct lack of “class” in American Masonry tht is more evident in european masonry.

And, and York Rite mason, and even Scottish Rite, can, and if honest will, disavow your claim that Masonry has abandoned or otherwise “lost” its religious character.

 

[Hellisreal]

Hello Sixtus,

What prey tell did your canon lawyer say?

 

[Bennie_P]

Myself, I believe free-masonary to be evil as a system of beliefs. It is hard to separate the truth and myth, but the Church teaches against it, so that’s good enough for me.

With this last statement, the Sacred Congregation points out to the faithful that this membership objectively constitutes a grave sin and by specifying that the members of a Masonic association may not receive Holy Communion, it intends to enlighten the conscience of the faithful about a grave consequence which must derive from their belonging to a Masonic lodge.

Irreconcilability between Christian faith and Freemasonry
Article from L’Osservatore Romano dated March 11, 1985

In making this Declaration, the S.C.D.F. has not intended to disown the efforts made by those who, with the due authorization of this Congregation, have sought to establish a dialogue with representatives of Freemasonry. But since there was the possibility of spreading among the faithful the erroneous opinion that membership in a Masonic lodge was lawful, it felt that it was its duty to make known to them the authentic thought of the Church in this regard and to warn them about a membership incompatible with the Catholic faith.

There is a Mason that is a member of my Parish, though he is at Mass every Sunday, he does not receive, nor attempt to recieve communion. I do not think he is evil, I do volunteer work with him with the Boys Scouts. Though, I think he is in error, and I have let him know about my misgivings about freemasonary. I pray for the day he understands the error, but for now I leave it up to him and God to work out.

 

[Hellisreal]

I think Benny P hit the nail on the head here.
But who knows?
We still must wait for the canon lawyer in this case to be fair.
Who has not said a peep.

 

[Renton405]

Freemasonry?

Its similar to paganism… it goes into heresy… there are doetic I believe,

They have been involved in many dangerous scandals…Werent they a big threat during the P2 scandal and the Vatican bank??

Propaganda Due or P2 was an irregular or “black” Masonic lodge that operated in Italy from 1877-1981, headed in its final decades by Licio Gelli. P2 was implicated in numerous Italian crimes and mysteries, including the nationwide bribe scandal Tangentopoli, the collapse of the Vatican-affiliated Banco Ambrosiano, and the murders of journalist Mino Pecorelli, Prime Minister Aldo Moro, and banker Roberto Calvi. P2 came to light through the Banco Ambrosiano scandal. P2 was also involved in Gladio’s strategy of tension (Gladio being the name of Italy’s secret “stay-behind” North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) paramilitary organization). Between 1965 and 1981, the P2 lodge entered the Italian political process by sending its members into the judiciary, the Parliament, the army and the press.

 

[Brian_C]

  			 					Canon 1364 also imposes an automatic excommunication upon apostates, heretics,  					or schismatics. This canon could also apply to Catholic Masons. If, for  					example, a Catholic Mason embraced the theological teachings of Freemasonry  					that the Church has condemned (indifferentism, syncretism), he would be in  					heresy by virtue of his belief in these teachings. Further, if a Catholic Mason  					knew the Church opposes membership in Freemasonry, and yet adamantly and  					persistently refused to submit to the pope’s authority in precluding his  					membership in the Lodge, he may also find himself in schism. Catholic Masons  					could also be subject to canon 1374 which imposes an interdict or just penalty  					upon those who join associations that plot against the Church.

  			For the canonical penalties to apply, the Catholic Mason would have to act in a  					gravely imputable way (that is, the Catholic would have to be aware of the  					Church’s teaching on Freemasonry and, after being warned about it, choose to  					disregard it).

In my personal experience, a fair number of Catholic Masons do act in a gravely imputable way in regard to their Masonic membership. In these cases, the canonical penalties, including excommunication, apply. The Church’s penalties are not meant to alienate the person on whom the penalty is levied. Instead, the penalties are meant to communicate to the person the gravity of his conduct, encourage his repentance and reconciliation with the Church, and bring him back into the one fold of Christ. After all, the mission of the Church is the salvation of souls.

From: scripturecatholic.com/freemasonfaq.html#faq10

From personal experience, I know many Masons who are devout Christians. They wouldn’t know syncretism and indifferentism from a quarter pounder with cheese. Just like there are more than a few Catholics who can’t explain the ins and outs of the hypostatic union or transubstantiation. But freemasonry in its present form is guided by a set of rationalist, deist principles that are incompatible with the Faith.

Is there no help for the widow’s son? Not if he joins the masons.