Why is Mormonism the big discussion topic in this forum?

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CJ_Nick said:
Hello why me ,

I have taken your challenge and stuck my head in a hat. I am saddened to inform you that all I got was the knowledge that I have bad breath and it is dark in there.:)🙂

Sorry, Just my lame attempt to lighten up this thread a little, no offense intended.:)🙂

Peace,
CJ
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Did you remember your seer stone?
 
CJ_Nick said:
Hello why me ,

I have taken your challenge and stuck my head in a hat. I am saddened to inform you that all I got was the knowledge that I have bad breath and it is dark in there.:)🙂

Sorry, Just my lame attempt to lighten up this thread a little, no offense intended.:)🙂

Peace,
CJ
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🙂 Actually I am enjoying sparing with my opponent. The book of mormon story is an enigma and it cannot easily be explained as the critics attempt to do.

I think that you have brought up a good point about bad breath and darkness. We have no record of JS’s breath smell. 😛

Imagine writing a book and then sticking your head in a hat with witnesses present reciting it perfectly. If I were JS, I would have taken that show on the road and made a fortune.
 
why_me said:
If you ever read the book of mormon you will see that such a trick would be impossible. You can try to stick your head in a hat and dictate a story with a scribe copying it down and see how you do. And then of course, we have the witnesses and their statements. We would need at least 13 or 14 people in on the fraud and all keeping their mouths shut throughout their lives about the fraud. Sounds impossible when one considers human nature.
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I have read the Book of Mormon in its entirety many times. I can’t replicate what Joseph did since I am not a storyteller. I have no creative ability in that regard. Joseph, on the other hand, did. According to his mom, Joseph would entertain his family around the fireplace with very detailed stories about the inhabitants of the New World - many years before he first dictated a word of his story to Emma. Mormon leaders explain this fact by saying that Joseph was evidently receiving revelations about the early inhabitants to prepare him for the translation process. It’s entirely possible that Joseph spent years working out the narrative framework for the BoM. That would account for the reportedly seamless flow of the dictation (except for those times when the curtain went up and the family KJV came out to fill in narrative gaps).

NS
 
why_me said:
Usually, people like yourself just ignore the links that I post and stick to their tag line. I can understand why. The book of mormon is not so simple as the internet portrays. It is quite complicated. The view of the hebrews was around at the time the book of mormon was published but it did not make such an impact on the book of mormon or JS. People usually just did not see a correlation between the two. In fact, many had the idea that sidney rigdon wrote the book of mormon since they knew that JS could not do it.
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I don’t think any scholars took the Book of Mormon seriously enough to study it for a long time after. But the identical main themes (far from mainstream history of any kind) of the BoM and the View of the Hebrews should be enough to close the argument. I read the link you posted and it was a typical, convoluted, over-written, defensive-sounding LDS argument in the face of some major, obvious problems. You’re a believer so you can’t see how absurd it really looks. The claim that the Indian-Hebrew connection was a “common” idea at the time is wishful thinking at best. It was a bizarre, novel concept and JS picked it up for his own book. It has no historical or archeological support today either.
 
CJ_Nick said:
Hello why me ,

I have taken your challenge and stuck my head in a hat. I am saddened to inform you that all I got was the knowledge that I have bad breath and it is dark in there.:)🙂

Sorry, Just my lame attempt to lighten up this thread a little, no offense intended.:)🙂

Peace,
CJ
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CJ,
Peace to you also. Did you cut a hole in your hat? Did you use it to shield the sunlight or candle light so that you could see your micro-computer screen without a reflective glare? If so, that would be similar to what Joseph Smith used the hat for, while using the “seer stone” where words appeared similar to a small computer screen. This is not so far-fetched, even though people scoff at such a “hat trick”. Try it! (Cutting the hole and looking through it, that is.)
 
why_me said:
🙂 Actually I am enjoying sparing with my opponent. The book of mormon story is an enigma and it cannot easily be explained as the critics attempt to do.

I think that you have brought up a good point about bad breath and darkness. We have no record of JS’s breath smell. 😛

Imagine writing a book and then sticking your head in a hat with witnesses present reciting it perfectly. If I were JS, I would have taken that show on the road and made a fortune.
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Hello why me,

I thank you for the warm and humorous reply :)🙂

It is nice, every now and then, to try and extend a few laughs for and with eachother while sharing very personal beliefs. ( Thanks again for offering smiles back :))

Peace,
CJ
 
NewSeeker said:
I have read the Book of Mormon in its entirety many times. I can’t replicate what Joseph did since I am not a storyteller. I have no creative ability in that regard. Joseph, on the other hand, did. According to his mom, Joseph would entertain his family around the fireplace with very detailed stories about the inhabitants of the New World - many years before he first dictated a word of his story to Emma. Mormon leaders explain this fact by saying that Joseph was evidently receiving revelations about the early inhabitants to prepare him for the translation process. It’s entirely possible that Joseph spent years working out the narrative framework for the BoM. That would account for the reportedly seamless flow of the dictation (except for those times when the curtain went up and the family KJV came out to fill in narrative gaps).

NS
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He was telling his family about what was being revealed to him by the angel Moroni during the four years between the first visit of Moroni and the time he actually received the gold plates. Moroni visited him each year. He became a good student through the tutelage of Moroni. He was excited to tell his family about what he was learning.
 
Why Me,
I surely enjoy your posts and your outlook. I hope you happen to have noticed my comment about the hole in the hat to look through to cut out glare in the room.

Thanks for the humor.
 
ParkerD said:
He was telling his family about what was being revealed to him by the angel Moroni during the four years between the first visit of Moroni and the time he actually received the gold plates. Moroni visited him each year. He became a good student through the tutelage of Moroni. He was excited to tell his family about what he was learning.
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Ah yes, poor Joseph, the uneducated, illiterate, backwoods country bumpkin. Good thing he had Moroni to teach him what he needed to know to get by in life. I wish I had my own pocket angel! I need to learn calculus before my boy hits high school.

NS
 
reggieM said:
But the identical main themes (far from mainstream history of any kind) of the BoM and the View of the Hebrews should be enough to close the argument… It has no historical or archeological support today either.
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View of the Hebrews is not a conclusive argument. As I posted a few hours ago, you can read and compare for yourself. There were other sources. The LDS counter-argument is the same. They will say, “Yes, they borrowed from the family Bible and View of the Hebrews, but where did the rest come from?” We need to pin down as many of the possible sources as possible, and one (or two?) will forever be out there…

To put together several comments I have seen on this board-- the BOM is a grand story struggling to be told, but that doesn’t make it scripture. 🤷
 
ParkerD said:
Why Me,
I surely enjoy your posts and your outlook. I hope you happen to have noticed my comment about the hole in the hat to look through to cut out glare in the room.

Thanks for the humor.
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I did notice it. I have to say that the critics first mentioned the hat trick to show the stupidity of the book of mormon. But upon reflection such a process is not easily explained. It took quite some talent if JS were a fraud. Both david whitmer and emma saw him do it. I have found it very faith confirming for mormons when reflected on.
 
Jerusha said:
View of the Hebrews is not a conclusive argument. As I posted a few hours ago, you can read and compare for yourself.

To put together several comments I have seen on this board-- the BOM is a grand story struggling to be told… 🤷
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It is wonderful that you noticed. 🙂
 
ParkerD said:
Why Me,
I surely enjoy your posts and your outlook. I hope you happen to have noticed my comment about the hole in the hat to look through to cut out glare in the room.

Thanks for the humor.
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You should head on over to the mormon apologetic site and post there too. We have a good family of people over there.

mormonapologetics.org

But stick around here too.
 
It took quite some talent if JS were a fraud.
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Yes, Joseph Smith was an extremely talented individual. I think Mormons do him a disservice portraying him as a backwards farm boy.

NS
 
NewSeeker said:
Yes, Joseph Smith was an extremely talented individual. I think Mormons do him a disservice portraying him as a backwards farm boy.

NS
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If you would read the life of Joseph Smith, for example, Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, you would see a young boy becoming a young man and becoming a man before being murdered at the age of 38. And yet, he accomplished much and grew in intellect. Mormons would claim that it was his calling as prophet that brought him such advancement in intellect and stature. But he did not have an easy life. And he was not known to be a bookworm during his early years.

Based on original sources, including many letters and diaries to which no previous biographer had had access, the book reveals the nineteenth-century religious ferment and fervor that helped to shape Smith’s beliefs. As a teenager, he had his first vision of God. At twenty-four, he published the Book of Mormon and founded his church, but was forever persecuted as he and his followers were forced across the country—from New York to Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois—where, when he was thirty-eight, a mob killed him.

This is the incredible story of a charismatic leader, one of the most complex and influential figures in American history—prophet, seer, city planner, banker, real estate agent, businessman, lieutenant general of militia, politician, instrument of divine revelation—a man who believed in God but not in the contending, confusing sects of his day and who, because of his beliefs, died a martyr.

signaturebooks.com/first.htm
 
why_me said:
If you would read the life of Joseph Smith, for example, Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, you would see a young boy becoming a young man and becoming a man before being murdered at the age of 38. And yet, he accomplished much and grew in intellect. Mormons would claim that it was his calling as prophet that brought him such advancement in intellect and stature. But he did not have an easy life. And he was not known to be a bookworm during his early years.

Based on original sources, including many letters and diaries to which no previous biographer had had access, the book reveals the nineteenth-century religious ferment and fervor that helped to shape Smith’s beliefs. As a teenager, he had his first vision of God. At twenty-four, he published the Book of Mormon and founded his church, but was forever persecuted as he and his followers were forced across the country—from New York to Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois—where, when he was thirty-eight, a mob killed him.

This is the incredible story of a charismatic leader, one of the most complex and influential figures in American history—prophet, seer, city planner, banker, real estate agent, businessman, lieutenant general of militia, politician, instrument of divine revelation—a man who believed in God but not in the contending, confusing sects of his day and who, because of his beliefs, died a martyr.

signaturebooks.com/first.htm
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This of course assumes you buy into everything JS said. He did not tell anyone of a vision prior to 1830. There is nothing published or written. No one witnessed this vision. He told no one about it. Smith himself did not make a written account of it until 1832. TWO YEARS after he published the BoM.

As for persecution, there is a whole story there, which includes criminal activity of JS and his close company of friends. They flee arrest as often as they flee “persecution”.
 
why_me said:
You should head on over to the mormon apologetic site and post there too. We have a good family of people over there.

mormonapologetics.org
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Meanwhile, back to the topic… :rolleyes:

“why me” has here shown exactly why Mormonism is the big discussion topic it is – so LDS members can try to confuse and convert those on these forums who are honestly seeking God’s Truth in and through the Catholic Church.

For some reason, CAF allows these threads to be continually started by LDS members. Honestly, I think the number of threads and posts devoted to this have probably covered all areas of theology, with apologists on both sides going round and round.

Personally, I’d like to see all these “let me show you why you Catholics should be LDS” threads should be shut down or moved to their more proper spot on the LDS sites. The topics have all been covered – why are we allowing LDS members an ongoing soapbox here?

Just my two cents, and I’m outta here!

Gertie (the grumpy graduate student)
 
I cordially invite all LDS who are truly interested in learning about Catholicism to stay here.

As for the rest of you, vamoose, get outta here. You have been useful in my research project into the Mormon psyche, but that is done now. Maybe you will be back sometime, truly interested.
 
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