Why Is Muhammad The Greatest?

[Selene]

actually he believes that the Quran does not deny the crucifixion, rather it denies that Jesus died *because *of crucifixion. In other words, God took His soul before the point of being killed by crucifixion.

The Qur’an denies the crucifixion of Christ. According to the Qur’an:

Sura 4:157-159 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

This is what I was addressing to Paarsurrey. According to the Qur’an, Allah took another man and changed his face into Jesus so that he would be killed in Jesus’ place. As I told Paarsurrey, this did not happened, because Allah (who is supposed to be God) resorted to sin - the sin of deceit and murder. For Allah to take an innocent man and change his face into Jesus so that the people would believe they were killing Jesus would make Allah guilty of deceit and murder of an innocent.

 

[inJESUS]

Selene, if the Quran were clear about it, you wouldn’t find a thousand guess by Muslims in order to understand what it means.

They neither killed him nor crucified him but it appeared as such

this is the paraphrasing.

Interpretations:

Someone else appeared to be Jesus (found in the tafasir)

or

Jesus was crucfied but swooned , did not die (ahmadiyya)

or

no crucifixion at all it was a mass hysteria

or, like our friend here:

it appeared that He was killed by crucifixion but He was not because Allah raised Him before the killing moment.

simply, the quran does not explain it that is why there are many conflicting nterpretations. FaithofAbraham rejects tradition and relies on his own understanding. Those who believe in tradition believe it was someone else.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Now the same Holy Ghost which inspired the St James to make a temporary injunction also inspired the entire Bible. This temporary discipline which St James added in the Council of Jerusalem was in order to avoid the Christians of Jewish descent from being scandalized.

How do you know it was just temporary? Starting with Noah God commanded not to eat blood. Christian Jews were being murdered not just scandalized so why would God change Laws for all humans in history to make it so they could eat blood, then change them so they couldn’t again, then change them so they could again? Wouldn’t that flip-flopping be more of a scandal in the long run?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The Qur’an denies the crucifixion of Christ. According to the Qur’an:

Sura 4:157-159 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

This is what I was addressing to Paarsurrey. According to the Qur’an, Allah took another man and changed his face into Jesus so that he would be killed in Jesus’ place. As I told Paarsurrey, this did not happened, because Allah (who is supposed to be God) resorted to sin - the sin of deceit and murder. For Allah to take an innocent man and change his face into Jesus so that the people would believe they were killing Jesus would make Allah guilty of deceit and murder of an innocent.

They say God put Judas on the cross but he looked like Jesus. That would have been poetic justice but it trashes all the Isaiah 53 prophecies of the suffering servant and such.

If properly understood that crucifixion = execution then when you read the Quran passages with the NT you see, oh ok, Jesus was on the cross, but God took the life of Jesus before he needed to have his legs broken.

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Muslims don’t get all that because they have been brainwashed to avoid the Bible, so they invent stories to explain it.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

that wasn’t Zerinus question.

can you explain the timeline in this verse? what Jews is it talking about? the Jews of Jesus’ time or before?

Since it is in the context of denying Jesus it refers to the good things God took away from them, which is Temple sacrifice and atonement for sins. So now they die in their sins and have a painful doom because they reject the only one who can make atonement for them now, Jesus. He is the new High Priest that takes prayers of repentance to God, Jesus said you can’t steal the way around him, no one gets to God except through him.

 

[De_Maria]

How do you know it was just temporary?

Because the Church teaches that it was temporary as I have already explained…

Starting with Noah God commanded not to eat blood.

And beginning with Christ we drink His Blood of the Covenant.

Christian Jews were being murdered

So were Christian Gentiles. Christians were being persecuted by the Jews and the Romans.

not just scandalized

Christian Jews were scandalized by the habits of Christian Gentiles. They had understood the Christian faith to be an outgrowth of Judaism. And it is. But they expected the Mosaic laws to continue in force. But they had been fulfilled by Jesus and were not in force any longer.

so why would God change Laws for all humans in history to make it so they could eat blood, then change them so they couldn’t again, then change them so they could again?

You have that line wrong. Adam and Eve were given herbs and fruits and seeds to eat.

Genesis 1:29 And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat: 30 And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life, that they may have to feed upon. And it was so done.

Then God gave man all the beasts as meat as well:
Genesis 9:3 And every thing that moveth and liveth shall be meat for you: even as the green herbs have I delivered them all to you:

But prohibited the blood:
4 Saving that flesh with blood you shall not eat.

This continued through the Mosaic injunctions which also prohibited the fat of the meat:
Leviticus 3
17 By a perpetual law for your generations, and in all your habitations: neither blood nor fat shall you eat at all.

Leviticus 7
26 Moreover you shall not eat the blood of any creature whatsoever, whether of birds or beasts. 27 Every one that eateth blood, shall perish from among the people.

And now Jesus has permitted all:
Mark 7
15 There is nothing from without a man that entering into him, can defile him. But the things which come from a man, those are they that defile a man.

And the Holy Ghost as well:
Acts Of Apostles 11 9 And the voice answered again from heaven: What God hath made clean, do not thou call common.

Wouldn’t that flip-flopping be more of a scandal in the long run?

It is not flip flopping. It has all been planned from the beginning and all has a logical place in God’s plan.

The one who flip flops is Mohammed in his never ending abrogations. Drink alcohol. No its bad for you. Make friends with Christians. No they are monkeys. You may not lie. Except under three circumstances which cover every situtation in life. You may have only three wives. At a time. Whilst I may have as many as I like. You may not marry your son’s wife, but I may.

Shall I continue?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Because the Church teaches that it was temporary as I have already explained…

What Church leader first taught that it was temporary?

And beginning with Christ we drink His Blood of the Covenant.

Are you really drinking blood and eating flesh? Or is it just symbolic of the New Covenant coming through Jesus?

Christian Jews were scandalized by the habits of Christian Gentiles. They had understood the Christian faith to be an outgrowth of Judaism. And it is. But they expected the Mosaic laws to continue in force. But they had been fulfilled by Jesus and were not in force any longer.

Why did the Holy Ghost feel it was necessary to cater to the Jews by commanding not to drink blood only for a little while? If you say the literal blood of Jesus is the New Covenant doesn’t that mean the Holy Ghost commanded not to take the New Covenant temporarily just so those Jews wouldn’t be embarrassed by the Gentiles?

You have that line wrong. Adam and Eve were given herbs and fruits and seeds to eat.

Meaning, from Noah down which is part of that Noahide Law.

It is not flip flopping. It has all been planned from the beginning and all has a logical place in God’s plan.

The one who flip flops is Mohammed in his never ending abrogations. Drink alcohol. No its bad for you. Make friends with Christians. No they are monkeys. You may not lie. Except under three circumstances which cover every situtation in life. You may have only three wives. At a time. Whilst I may have as many as I like. You may not marry your son’s wife, but I may.

Shall I continue?

I think the Quran always said alcohol is bad for you. The Quran compares the unfaithful among Christians and Jews, not all of them, to apes and pigs, just like Jesus used serpents to describe unfaithful among Jews. I think maybe the lying issue is in Hadith. The Quran goes up to four wives, and that may mean as many as you like, but you can’t neglect any of them if you do, otherwise it is better to take only one.

However it’s not clear if Mohammed sinned by marrying Zaid’s wife, even though it was his adopted son. He was just a human with lusts too, like King David. I’m not one of those Muslims who pretends he was a saint.

 

[paarsurrey]

He sent demons into pigs to save a human soul!

Vickie

Hi

I think this is only a superstition.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Even St. Paul saw the resurrected Christ and converted.

Hi

I think Paul did not see any vision. How could he see Jesus risen when Jesus alongwith Mary and some of his confidants was on a journey towards Kashmir and neibouring places where the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel lived and Jesus had to preach his gospel among them as commanded by GodAllahYHWH.

In my opinion Paul continued his animosity with Jesus, Mary and the Twelve.

Thanks

 

[inJESUS]

Mohammed was just a human with lusts too, like King David. I’m not one of those Muslims who pretends he was a saint.

finally a Muslim not idolizing anything done by Muhammad.

Why did Muhammad allow a divorced woman who got married to another man to return to her first husband if this was prohibited in the Mosaic law?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

finally a Muslim not idolizing anything done by Muhammad.

Why did Muhammad allow a divorced woman who got married to another man to return to her first husband if this was prohibited in the Mosaic law?

On most every issue the door is wide open for Gentiles since they were never under the Law of Moses, only Jews were. Gentiles only had the laws in Acts about blood, idols, fornication, etc. Plus loving God and each other as Jesus taught, assuming everyone knew that from the start with Adam.

Here’s the difference I think. When Jesus taught laws which focused on moral codes, you could see that they made sense, they were just good things to do.

But in Torah, why is it a good thing not to mix wool and cotton? Some of those seem to make no practical sense. I think laws of Torah are actually prophecies and signs that will be in effect until the end. Like wool and cotton maybe referring to Jews and Gentiles mingling, not a good thing if Gentiles were going to turn Jews from God. Now these days Jews might turn Gentiles from Jesus. So maybe it’s still in effect.

God divorced Israel because she was a whore to other gods and that ended the Old Covenant. But in the end God remarries Israel as the Lamb’s Bride in the New Covenant, though she has been divorced from Him. So the prohibition of marrying your first husband is made void by the New Covenant, after heaven and earth pass.

That’s why I think a lot of the Quran is not so much about practical moral code like Jesus taught, but more like Torah, prophecies of things to come that might not make sense on the surface. And maybe even Mohammed didn’t understand that. But I think that’s the deal.

 

[De_Maria]

What Church leader first taught that it was temporary?

St. Peter, St. James, St. Paul and all at the council of Jerusalem. This one letter was sent to one group of Gentile Christians and was not enforced by the Church in any other location. While the verses which I already presented by Jesus, St. Peter, and St. Paul were read to the entire Church on a regular basis.

Romans 14
1 Now him that is weak in faith, take unto you: not in disputes about thoughts. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: but he that is weak, let him eat herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth, despise him that eateth not: and he that eateth not, let him not judge him that eateth. For God hath taken him to him.

Are you really drinking blood and eating flesh? Or is it just symbolic of the New Covenant coming through Jesus?

John 6
57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

It is real flesh and real blood in the guise of bread and wine.

Why did the Holy Ghost feel it was necessary to cater to the Jews by commanding not to drink blood only for a little while?

Because salvation is from the Jews.

If you say the literal blood of Jesus is the New Covenant doesn’t that mean the Holy Ghost commanded not to take the New Covenant temporarily just so those Jews wouldn’t be embarrassed by the Gentiles?

No. Their case was specific. The blood of sacrificed animals.

Meaning, from Noah down which is part of that Noahide Law.

From Noah through the Old Testament. Until Jesus fulfilled the law and established the New Covenant in His Blood.

I think the Quran always said alcohol is bad for you.

So the Quran always forbade alcohol? Then what is the famous abrogation of consumption of alcohol about?

The Quran compares the unfaithful among Christians and Jews, not all of them, to apes and pigs, just like Jesus used serpents to describe unfaithful among Jews.

So you don’t believe the verse which commands Muslims to befriend Christians has been abrogated?

I think maybe the lying issue is in Hadith.

And you don’t follow the Hadith or Sunna? I take it you aren’t Sunni? To which branch to do adhere?

The Quran goes up to four wives, and that may mean as many as you like,

May mean? Wouldn’t that be important to know?

but you can’t neglect any of them if you do, otherwise it is better to take only one.

Sounds as though Mohammed did not give a great deal of thought to a concept which we consider central to our faith.

I like to hear these things because it is a point of comparison between Islam and Christianity.

In Christianity, the love of a man for a woman in holy matirimony is a reflection of God’s love for mankind.

However it’s not clear if Mohammed sinned by marrying Zaid’s wife, even though it was his adopted son. He was just a human with lusts too, like King David. I’m not one of those Muslims who pretends he was a saint.

So he should be compared to King David and not to Jesus the Christ? Because Jesus Christ is universally known as a sinless miracle worker and man of God. Even in the Quran. Which would mean that Mohammed is not the greatest Prophet.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Selene]

Hi

I think Paul did not see any vision. How could he see Jesus risen when Jesus alongwith Mary and some of his confidants was on a journey towards Kashmir and neibouring places where the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel lived and Jesus had to preach his gospel among them as commanded by GodAllahYHWH.

In my opinion Paul continued his animosity with Jesus, Mary and the Twelve.

Thanks

Salaam paarsurrey,

If you had read the Bible, it doesn’t show any animosity of St. Paul towards Jesus, Mary, and the twelve apostles. It was the twelve apostles who were suspicious of St. Paul because his reputation as a killer of Christians was well-known. The fact that St. Paul no longer killed Christians and became a Christian himself is actually the evidence that he did saw a vision of the risen Christ. After all, what could change a man who is a well-known killer and persecutor of Christians into a Christian himself? Something changed him into a Christian, and the resurrection of Jesus is the only explaination for that change.

Best regards,
Selene

 

[Selene]

They say God put Judas on the cross but he looked like Jesus. That would have been poetic justice but it trashes all the Isaiah 53 prophecies of the suffering servant and such.

Even if it was Judas Iscariot, Allah still have committed a sin. Deceit is still considered a sin. To take Judas’ face and change it into Jesus’ face so that the people would believe and think that they were executing Jesus is deceit. God would not need to resort to deceit to punish the wicked. God punished all the wicked people in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimestone, and he did not resort to deceit to carry out that punishment.

If properly understood that crucifixion = execution then when you read the Quran passages with the NT you see, oh ok, Jesus was on the cross, but God took the life of Jesus before he needed to have his legs broken. .

Are you now saying that it was Allah who killed Jesus and not the Roman soldiers? Jesus was an innocent man, and Allah took his life???

 

[Valke2]

Are you now saying that it was Allah who killed Jesus and not the Roman soldiers? Jesus was an innocent man, and Allah took his life???

The issue of God taking life confuses you? Putting aside the fact that God takes all life all the time, don’t Christians believe that God gave his son’s life for man?

 

[MelanieAnne]

Hi

I think Paul did not see any vision. How could he see Jesus risen when Jesus alongwith Mary and some of his confidants was on a journey towards Kashmir and neibouring places where the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel lived and Jesus had to preach his gospel among them as commanded by GodAllahYHWH.

In my opinion Paul continued his animosity with Jesus, Mary and the Twelve.

Thanks

This is speculation that is unsupported by any evidence. And evidence exists for the opposite. As such, it is not rational.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

I think Paul did not see any vision.

Yet you believe that Mohammed saw a vision?

Lets compare. St. Paul’s miracles and teachings are substantiated by St. Luke, the Physician . St. Peter also calls him a friend and calls his teachings inspired.

No one substantiated any miracles by Mohammed.

Yet you believe Mohammed and disbelieve St. Paul.

How could he see Jesus risen when Jesus alongwith Mary and some of his confidants was on a journey towards Kashmir

You are welcome.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Are you now saying that it was Allah who killed Jesus and not the Roman soldiers? Jesus was an innocent man, and Allah took his life???

I don’t believe the Judas thing. Yes God took the life of Jesus from the cross before the cross could kill him.

First so Jesus would not be stopped by men which is implied to be a requirement of Messiah.

Isaiah 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

And also to fulfill this, since God made sure Jesus was gone before it could happen.

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

And possibly or incidentally, so Jews and Romans would not bear the guilt of killing Messiah, God maybe having compassion for them too.

 

[planten]

Selene: Even if it was Judas Iscariot, Allah still have committed a sin. Deceit is still considered a sin. To take Judas’ face and change it into Jesus’ face so that the people would believe and think that they were executing Jesus is deceit. God would not need to resort to deceit to punish the wicked. God punished all the wicked people in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimestone, and he did not resort to deceit to carry out that punishment

.

** It was Jesus on the cross. If Jesus died on the cross (not according to Quran) then how did Allah commit a sin? It is bible which says that Jesus died on the cross. If he was god then did he kill himself?? Or some other god killed him on the cross?? I feel that F o A is onto something useful. Let us see.**

 

[Selene]

The issue of God taking life confuses you? Putting aside the fact that God takes all life all the time, don’t Christians believe that God gave his son’s life for man?

Christians believe that it was our sins that killed Jesus.