Why is Papal Infallibility such a big deal?

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I was wondering why is the doctrine of Papal Infallibility such a big deal with Protestants when it has been used so seldom?

I only know of a very few instances: the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception and the Crowning of Mary in Heaven [as Queen of the Angels].

It isn’t as if the Pope regularly issues new doctrine “out of the blue” abusing this infallibility.

Just wondering why is it so scary to non-Catholics?
 
It is a matter of authority. Those that “Protest”. ie. protestants are mostly against Papal Infallibilty in this regard, they are not able to be their own authority. In other words they disregard the fact that Jesus established a Church with a Head, Peter and his successors and a teaching authority.
 
It is also ignorance. Many non-Catholics are under the impression that the Pope is infallible 24/7 - I was one of them, before I started investigating the faith. (Convert, class of '06.)

They also confuse infallibility with impeccability; they think that we think the Pope is without sin.

Yes, it would be a big deal if we really believed our Holy Father was totally perfect, wouldn’t it? It could come across as giving him the worship we owe only to God.

So keep on being charitable to them!

God bless,

Ruthie
 
NItpicky point - the Crowning of Mary in Heaven isn’t dogma or required belief, it’s just a mystery of the Rosary.

And there are other things the Popes have said that are usually considered infallible - Papal teaching against artificial contraception and against the ordination of women for two.
 
It is a matter of authority. Those that “Protest”. ie. protestants are mostly against Papal Infallibilty in this regard, they are not able to be their own authority. In other words they disregard the fact that Jesus established a Church with a Head, Peter and his successors and a teaching authority.
:rolleyes:
 
I was wondering why is the doctrine of Papal Infallibility such a big deal with Protestants when it has been used so seldom?

I only know of a very few instances: the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception and the Crowning of Mary in Heaven [as Queen of the Angels].

It isn’t as if the Pope regularly issues new doctrine “out of the blue” abusing this infallibility.

Just wondering why is it so scary to non-Catholics?
This is at least as big a deal with the Orthodox as it is with western non_Catholic Christians.

Jon
 
It is also ignorance. Many non-Catholics are under the impression that the Pope is infallible 24/7 - I was one of them, before I started investigating the faith. (Convert, class of '06.)

They also confuse infallibility with impeccability; they think that we think the Pope is without sin.

As if he were not human? Has any Catholic ever hinted that a Pope doesn’t go to Confession, and to any “little” priest that he might choose to? Is that the impression non-Catholics [Orthodox & Protestants] have of the Papacy? No wonder they think get worried!

I just thought since it is so seldom used…why worry so much about that minute part of Catholicism? And, frankly, it’s not like our Popes have been eccentric or arrogant or ignorant… I actually find them lovable…not just worthy of respect for their knowledge and skill, but actually caring and loving!

I wonder what impression non-Catholics have of JPII and Benedict XVI? [sincerely…though respectfully]

Yes, it would be a big deal if we really believed our Holy Father was totally perfect, wouldn’t it? It could come across as giving him the worship we owe only to God.

So keep on being charitable to them!

God bless,

Ruthie
 
I was wondering why is the doctrine of Papal Infallibility such a big deal with Protestants when it has been used so seldom?

I only know of a very few instances: the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception and the Crowning of Mary in Heaven [as Queen of the Angels].

It isn’t as if the Pope regularly issues new doctrine “out of the blue” abusing this infallibility.

Just wondering why is it so scary to non-Catholics?
Protestants are not the only ones that make “such a big deal”. The Orthodox and the Eastern Christians such as the Coptics do not hold to the Roman Catholic Pope as the “head of the Church”. I think Shenouda III, current Pope in Alexandria, would have something to say.

For Roman Catholics Benedict 16 is Pope. For the Coptics Shenouda III is Pope.
As an Anglican, at times I wish we had one and then I am glad we don’t! For obvious reasons…could you see the current Archbishop of Cantur or even the US PB with Pope like powers!?:eek::bigyikes:

One of the problems the various non-catholic, non-roman catholics have is the calling of councils and then the pronouncement that the findings or agreements of a local council are binding upon those not called to attend. As an Anglican, there has not been a church council since the Great Schism. Just regional synods binding only on those local bodies.
Historically, many outside of Rome do not see the support from scripture or history for much of the power given or taken by the Pope in Rome. Whether that power is used seldom or not is moot. The Pope is first among equals. Of course the Church you attend teaches differently and many times those teaching do not understand or misapply the opposition. It also does not help many protestants or orthodox when they are told their church is not a church or illict or invalid etc etc. Kind of shuts down the dialogue process and plays into the hands of those who have a vested interest in keeping Christianity divided among itself.

I for one like B16, and we regularly pray for him during Mass. Along with the Orthodox and Anglican leadership. I will even fondly refer to him as my “German Shepard”. I defend him and like him; the more liberals and liberal Catholics screech the more I pray the Holy Spirit protect him and continue to guide him. All said, does not mean I agree with everything!

Good question.

Blessings
 
It is a matter of authority. Those that “Protest”. ie. protestants are mostly against Papal Infallibilty in this regard, they are not able to be their own authority. In other words they disregard the fact that Jesus established a Church with a Head, Peter and his successors and a teaching authority.
Then there are protestants sitting in the pew next to you claiming to be catholic. Catholics ignore church teachings when it suits them. Last Presidental election is a
good example. Abortions…some catholic women ignore that teaching. Sex outside of marriage, word meanings etc etc etc. It is nice to make sweeping statements like you made, just not accurate.

But it is an old problem in the church. St Paul in his letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 1:11-17) deals with those who follow after an Apostle and hold that Apostle or teacher above others. “I am of Paul”, “I am of Apollos”, “I am of Cephas (Peter)”, “I am of Christ”.

Is any of this bickering good for the Church universal?
 
Protestants are not the only ones that make “such a big deal”. The Orthodox and the Eastern Christians such as the Coptics do not hold to the Roman Catholic Pope as the “head of the Church”. I think Shenouda III, current Pope in Alexandria, would have something to say.

For Roman Catholics Benedict 16 is Pope. For the Coptics Shenouda III is Pope.
As an Anglican, at times I wish we had one and then I am glad we don’t! For obvious reasons…could you see the current Archbishop of Cantur or even the US PB with Pope like powers!?:eek::bigyikes:

One of the problems the various non-catholic, non-roman catholics have is the calling of councils and then the pronouncement that the findings or agreements of a local council are binding upon those not called to attend. As an Anglican, there has not been a church council since the Great Schism. Just regional synods binding only on those local bodies.
Historically, many outside of Rome do not see the support from scripture or history for much of the power given or taken by the Pope in Rome. Whether that power is used seldom or not is moot. The Pope is first among equals. Of course the Church you attend teaches differently and many times those teaching do not understand or misapply the opposition. It also does not help many protestants or orthodox when they are told their church is not a church or illict or invalid etc etc. Kind of shuts down the dialogue process and plays into the hands of those who have a vested interest in keeping Christianity divided among itself.

I for one like B16, and we regularly pray for him during Mass. Along with the Orthodox and Anglican leadership. I will even fondly refer to him as my “German Shepard”. I defend him and like him; the more liberals and liberal Catholics screech the more I pray the Holy Spirit protect him and continue to guide him. All said, does not mean I agree with everything!

Good question.

Blessings
Very well put! 👍

So, the Coptics, are they Catholic or Orthodox, or neither?

Yes…well, I have heard that the Orthodox, and the Coptic, and the Indian Church [don’t know its name],and the Lebanese, Syrian, and on and on, all have Apostolic succession…can’t say I’ve heard the same about the Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists…etc.

In the case of the Lutherans. I learned, while helping my HS son research a project for school on Lutheranism, that they have the consubstantiation, interesting position. I thought the Anglicans did not have the real presence…neither trans- nor cons-
Maybe I’m wrong…
 
I was wondering why is the doctrine of Papal Infallibility such a big deal why is it so scary to non-Catholics?
Because it is not true. It was also voted at VaticalCouncil I under the most bizarre circumstances.

Denying the validity of Vatican I Council, Archbishop Peter Richard Kenrick refused to speak at any of the general sessions after June 4th, 1870. Bishop Joseph Strossmeyer of Diakovar told Lord Acton, There is no denying that the Council lacked freedom from beginning to end. To Professor Joseph Hubert Reinkens, Strossmeyer said, that the Vatican Council had not had the freedom necessary to make it a true Council and to justify its passing resolutions binding the conscience of the entire Catholic world. The proof of this was perfectly self-evident.

Bishop Francois Le Courtier spoke for many when he wrote, Our weakness at this moment comes neither from scripture nor the tradition of the Fathers nor the witness of the General Councils nor the evidence of history. It comes from our lack of freedom, which is radical. An imposing minority, is crushed beneath the yoke of a restrictive agenda, which contradicts conciliar traditions. It is crushed by commissions which have not been truly elected and which dare to insert undebated paragraphs in the text after debate has closed. It is crushed by the commission for postulates, which has been imposed from above. It is crushed by the absolute absence of discussion, response, objections, and the opportunity to demand explanations; The minority is crushed, above all, by the full weight of the supreme authority which oppresses it Furthermore, the opposing minority of about two hundred bishops objected to the short time allowed for studying the text on primacy and infallibility as well as to the practice adopted by the deputations of inserting new clauses at the last moment.
The minority bishops were not allowed to discuss the historical objections against Papal Infallibility with the deputation on the faith. In a letter Bishop Le Courtier complains, See what more than aught else destroys our liberty: it is crushed under the respect we have for our Head. Later in frustrated anger, Bishop Francois Le Courtier tossed his council documents into the river Tiber and left Rome. The papers were retrieved and brought to the attention of Vatican officials. The price for this gesture was extracted three years later, when he was dismissed as Bishop of Montpellier.

In spite of the unequal representation and Pius IX using the power and prestige of his office, there was still a large number - eighty-eight bishops - who voted against Papal Infallibility, which was enshrined in the constitution, Pastor Aeternus. Sixty-two bishops, many of whom were de facto opponents, voted with reservations, with only four hundred and fifty-one giving a clear yes - this is less than half of the one thousand and eighty-four prelates with voting privileges and less than two-thirds of the seven hundred bishops in attendance at the commencement of the Council. Over seventy-six bishops in Rome abstained from voting and fifty-five bishops informed the Pope that while maintaining their opposition to the definition that out of filial piety and reverence, which very recently brought our representatives to the feet of your Holiness, do not allow us in a cause so closely concerning Your Holiness to say non placet (it is not pleasing) openly in the face of the Father. This statement alone speaks volumes for the subservience that these bishops had for the immense authority figure of the Pope - a presence unknown in the councils of the Early Church.

Thus lacking a moral unanimity or even a clear two-thirds majority, Papal Infallibility was now elevated as an article of faith equal to the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.
 


Thus lacking a moral unanimity or even a clear two-thirds majority, Papal Infallibility was now elevated as an article of faith equal to the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.
I have to tell you NOTHING is equal to the Holy Trinity or the Incarnation…and I am not sure, other than by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, how they were able to get at those! Not easy concepts…no human would have thought of those two!

We do love our Popes…we only worship God! 😉

I have never heard of your religion. I’m so glad I asked this question. The Christian world is so much larger than I have access to! 🙂
I’m SO glad to know that!
 
Then there are protestants sitting in the pew next to you claiming to be catholic. Catholics ignore church teachings when it suits them. Last Presidental election is a
good example.
I’m guessing some are Catholic again at this point. 😉
 
I was wondering why is the doctrine of Papal Infallibility such a big deal with Protestants when it has been used so seldom?

I only know of a very few instances: the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception and the Crowning of Mary in Heaven [as Queen of the Angels].

It isn’t as if the Pope regularly issues new doctrine “out of the blue” abusing this infallibility.

Just wondering why is it so scary to non-Catholics?
If it’s really as “unimportant” as you infer … given it causes so much division, why not just drop the idea? Surely you don’t really believe a man can be infallible in any matter (much less faith and morals)?
 
If it’s really as “unimportant” as you infer … given it causes so much division, why not just drop the idea? Surely you don’t really believe a man can be infallible in any matter (much less faith and morals)?
Humble, what we believe is that Jesus gave Peter, and his successors, which include Pope Benedict XVI, the Gift of the Holy Spirit to guide the Church in faith and morals and that Jesus promised that the Church would be protected from error on those subjects. That doesn’t mean the Pope is personally perfect, or does not err in other ways. This concept is widely misunderstood to encompass far more things than it actually does.

Please remember that the Chair of Peter was originally regarded as 1st among equals. That doesn’t mean that the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) is somehow any more PERSONALLY special than any other Bishop, but he does have a certain gift from Jesus.

So I’ll ask you the same thing. Why not drop the idea of opposition? Then we can all be together as Jesus surely intended.
 
If it’s really as “unimportant” as you infer … given it causes so much division, why not just drop the idea? Surely you don’t really believe a man can be infallible in any matter (much less faith and morals)?
Actually, I do. And, I’ll explain why it is important to us to have a Pope that can have the “last” word… it’s not so much that we trust the Pope, it’s really that we trust the Holy Spirit to control/monitor/inspire [however you want to call it] the Pope so that the Church will not succumb to Evil.

What I meant was that it is not a commonplace occurrence that Popes use this prerogative. Not that it is unimportant.

It doesn’t cause so much division…there are quite a few million Latin Catholics in the world…it doesn’t bother us a bit! 🙂
Isn’t that surprising? Usually, even small groups have “worries” about much lesser prerogatives…
 
Actually, I do. And, I’ll explain why it is important to us to have a Pope that can have the “last” word… it’s not so much that we trust the Pope, it’s really that we trust the Holy Spirit to control/monitor/inspire [however you want to call it] the Pope so that the Church will not succumb to Evil.

What I meant was that it is not a commonplace occurrence that Popes use this prerogative. Not that it is unimportant.

It doesn’t cause so much division…there are quite a few million Latin Catholics in the world…it doesn’t bother us a bit! 🙂
Isn’t that surprising? Usually, even small groups have “worries” about much lesser prerogatives…
is logic and reason allowed into this discussion? If so then were all the corrupt popes throughout history endowed with this mystic spiritual enlightenment? If so then how do you explain their deviance in the very matters they are viewed as infallible in?

I know you have an elaborate explanation for this (I remember the spin job). I guess some of us can behave ourselves without needing the fallacious hope of an eternal mystical wonderland or an invisible master who speaks to us through all the coincidental events in our lives.
 
Humble, what we believe is that Jesus gave Peter, and his successors, which include Pope Benedict XVI, the Gift of the Holy Spirit to guide the Church in faith and morals and that Jesus promised that the Church would be protected from error on those subjects. That doesn’t mean the Pope is personally perfect, or does not err in other ways. This concept is widely misunderstood to encompass far more things than it actually does.
I’m very aware of your beliefs in this regard. The problem is none of it is true. Even the Jesus of scripture never promulgated the papacy. It was obviously a Roman power grab (pretty neat scam if I do say so myself).
Please remember that the Chair of Peter was originally regarded as 1st among equals. That doesn’t mean that the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) is somehow any more PERSONALLY special than any other Bishop, but he does have a certain gift from Jesus.
So I’ll ask you the same thing. Why not drop the idea of opposition? Then we can all be together as Jesus surely intended.
Please read my signature and religious preference … NONE! Not that I hate religion or anything like that (nor am I foolish enough to think religion is the cause of all wars or any such nonsense). I simply don’t believe in the intangible or unseen. I allow logic, not nonsense, to rule my behavior and decisions.
 
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