Why is Papal Infallibility such a big deal?

[Sunflower15]

…It is an encouraging thought, really, but somehow reminds one of Don Quixote tilting at windmills . Very earnest and innocent, with a great big heap of idealism. .

Yep…it does sound like quite a challenge…but Saul went from persecuting Christians to becoming the Apostle to the Gentiles by coming down from his “high horse,” and being blinded so that he could truly see.…didn’t he?

It sounds like a lot of people don’t like to relinquish control [whether over a big chunk or a small one – and which one is more difficult to do?]…
but, the One Who truly is in control allows what He wishes just for as long as He wishes… and for His own reasons…unbeknownst to us all…

The churches /rituals/ traditions /prayers may be different…However, we all share the same faith!

At least, that is what I can gather from all these posts.

On another note: What would this world be without those special souls like Don Quixote? I love that archetype! My other favorite is Segismundo [from Life is a Dream – written by a Spanish priest in the 1600’s, Pedro Calderon de la Barca] Great character!

 

[MelanieAnne]

Not being a Protestant myself, I didn’t have much interest in this topic until I wrote that. I had to scamper around for information.

Here is a short list, there are others (especially if one considers the many hundreds of priests and monks who became local Protestant pastors following the initial disruption). I included the name of the diocese or religious order, if I could find out, and the approximate date of ordination:

Father Ulrich Zwingli
Zürich1506

Father John Knox
St Andrews 1540

Father Menno Simons
Utrecht 1515

Father William Tyndale
Worcester 1515

Father Justus Jonas
Erfurt 1518

Father Wolfgang Capito
Basel 1512

Father Andreas Karlstadt

Father Martin Bucer
Dominican 1516

Father Peter Martyr
Augustinian

  Interestingly, John Calvin was not a priest, he was a lawyer.

I believe Thomas Cranmer should also be on the list.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

One comment:

I can’t help thinking about the passage when the disciples [not sure if it was the Apostles themselves] came to Jesus complaining that others, [who were not part of their group], were teaching and “expelling demons” in His name. Should they be stopped?

Now, these people were the direct disciples of Jesus, they saw Him performing miracles, they heard His teachings firsthand …and YES, they are STILL incredibly human…bickering about who should have the “rights” to Jesus’ power!

They were NOT thinking…“oh, great, at least we have some help with all the healing & exorcisms that need to be done to help all these people in need…wonderful!”

So, from the VERY beginning, Jesus has had to work with the Church leaders acting with a little bit of an “ego trip”…[so to speak]

Why would it be ANY different 1000 yrs later? or 2000 yrs later?

One wish: Even if all Christians cannot agree on the past, that we will be able to agree about the future…even if new solutions have to be created so that no one feels overpowered… That all Church leaders will notice the needs of humanity and be moved to compassion with a spirit of service, not minding whether the helpers are from the same “group”… as Jesus said “if they are not against us, they are for us” [paraphrasing…I don’t recall the actual words]

Thankfully,
Maria\

Gabriel of 12;
I believe you are referencing Mark 9:40 or Luke 9:49 dealing with an excorcism in Jesus name? Jesus is quoted as saying “Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you.” In the old testament there is a similar circumstance referenced from Numbers 11:26-30 when Eldad and Medad without authority, but Moses attitude towards these was “Tolerance” the teaching Jesus gives to the apostles, that anyone who excorcised in his name would not speak ill of him. The key word is the name of Jesus for only good can come from this name above every name. The conclusion of the text brings light to those who recieve you or give you a cup of water because the apostles bare the name of Jesus Christ, these outsiders will by no means lose their reward.

This passage has nothing to do with Christians starting or building a seperate church other than the one Jesus built upon Peter, just that Christians themselves have authority in the name of Jesus. God has used Pharoah of Egypt to excercise his will, God is not limited to his Catholic church, but his Word will not conflict with what God has created and commissioned his Catholic church to do see Matthew 28:18-20. Just because the Catholic church does not put a limit on God’s will, does not mean that God will build a competitive church to his own body. God can even bring good from evil thus the passion of Jesus Christ.

 

[Sunflower15]

Gabriel of 12;
…

This passage has nothing to do with Christians starting or building a seperate church other than the one Jesus built upon Peter, just that Christians themselves have authority in the name of Jesus. God has used Pharoah of Egypt to excercise his will, God is not limited to his Catholic church, but his Word will not conflict with what God has created and commissioned his Catholic church to do see Matthew 28:18-20.

I can understand what you say. I don’t necessarily disagree, but it is easier to think in those terms about the Reformation churches than about the other ones equally built by Jesus, since we have common ancestry. The schism happened after the fact --several centuries later, until then, we were ALL the “church Jesus built”.

Just because the Catholic church does not put a limit on God’s will,
…and what a waste of energy that would be! [don’t worry, I know that’s not exactly what you meant…]

does not mean that God will build a competitive church to his own body.
Sure. God doesn’t contradict Himself. The problem is that WE do! Just as we don’t get why the Reformation had to happen, the Orthodox don’t get why the schism had to happen.

They could conceivably say that WE separated ourselves from the “Church that Jesus built”, no? Just as we can say the same about them…and keep arguing until Judgment Day…
What if we all have claims to that “church that Jesus built and sustains” because as we have splintered off, we carry part of that DNA [His] whether they wanted to or not?

God can even bring good from evil thus the passion of Jesus Christ.

…especially from the passion and death of Our Dear Lord!

What if the Kingdom of God that Jesus established on Earth – His Church --His Body — What if it is something that transcends the churches we have…[as much as we *need them, or we would go crazy!] I’m NOT saying these churches are or aren’t authentic…that’s not my point…what I’m trying to say is that maybe from God’s point of view, we all look as One…

Let’s imagine several cities, in rivalry even, they look so separate from our perspective…but take an airplane, well, they aren’t so far apart anymore…then take a shuttle…from there, the entire planet looks small.

In regards to these arguments re: churches, my only prayer is that when Our Lord looks at us, He only sees Himself – nothing else, certainly not our bickering.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

…especially from the passion and death of Our Dear Lord!

What if the Kingdom of God that Jesus established on Earth – His Church --His Body — What if it is something that transcends the churches we have…[as much as we *need them, or we would go crazy!] I’m NOT saying these churches are or aren’t authentic…that’s not my point…what I’m trying to say is that maybe from God’s point of view, we all look as One…

Let’s imagine several cities, in rivalry even, they look so separate from our perspective…but take an airplane, well, they aren’t so far apart anymore…then take a shuttle…from there, the entire planet looks small.

In regards to these arguments re: churches, my only prayer is that when Our Lord looks at us, He only sees Himself – nothing else, certainly not our bickering.

Gabriel of 12;

We have a merciful and loving God, it is his will not one of his should perish. As far as the Church and imagining, I have already been accused of dreaming and fallen over the edge contemplating what if’s? What keeps me sober on this difficult historical topic, is what Jesus said and did when he himself speaks in sacred scripture about building his church. The problem is not Jesus, the problem is man obeying Jesus words and commands especially to eat his body and drink his blood? The hope JP2 gave me, is when he went to visit Ghandi’s grave and pronounced he lived out Christian morals and has the hope of heaven.