Why is personal freedom worth more than perfect peace to God?

[blase6]

I just don’t get it.

Our world is filled with suffering, and some people are or will be suffering eternally in Hell. And this is all because God allows it because he values personal freedom.

It is the usual argument in the problem of evil: God allows suffering but does not will it. Well, there is not a significant difference. For whatever reason, God would rather have the multitudes of suffering brought on by personal freedom, than for perfect peace without freedom.

What is it about freedom that Someone who we believe is all good, would allow evil simply for freedom’s sake?

 

[Robert_Sock]

I just don’t get it.

Our world is filled with suffering, and some people are or will be suffering eternally in Hell. And this is all because God allows it because he values personal freedom.

It is the usual argument in the problem of evil: God allows suffering but does not will it. Well, there is not a significant difference. For whatever reason, God would rather have the multitudes of suffering brought on by personal freedom, than for perfect peace without freedom.

What is it about freedom that Someone who we believe is all good, would allow evil simply for freedom’s sake?

I take no delight in my “freedom,” but I try to place all efforts in fulfilling God’s will for me.

 

[davidv]

I just don’t get it.

Our world is filled with suffering, and some people are or will be suffering eternally in Hell. And this is all because God allows it because he values personal freedom.

It is the usual argument in the problem of evil: God allows suffering but does not will it. Well, there is not a significant difference. For whatever reason, God would rather have the multitudes of suffering brought on by personal freedom, than for perfect peace without freedom.

What is it about freedom that Someone who we believe is all good, would allow evil simply for freedom’s sake?

Freedom exists for the purpose of love. Without freedom these is no love. As Jesus demonstrated on the cross the is no suffering greater that true love.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

What is it about freedom that Someone who we believe is all good, would allow evil simply for freedom’s sake?

Someone else correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t Satan think this way?

 

[ChainBreaker]

Someone else correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t Satan think this way?

I think Satan wanted full autonomy to do as he pleases with God’s gifts. He wanted to be his own God.

Blase 6 doesn’t want to take responsibility for the consequences of his freedom; that’s why he is questioning it.

 

[blase6]

I think Satan wanted full autonomy to do as he pleases with God’s gifts. He wanted to be his own God.

Blase 6 doesn’t want to take responsibility for the consequences of his freedom; that’s why he is questioning it.

No. I am just worried because the possibility of rejecting God and suffering for it is always available, even if I don’t want it. It is just that freedom is so random, so I don’t really know what I will choose to do.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think Satan wanted full autonomy to do as he pleases with God’s gifts. He wanted to be his own God.

Blase 6 doesn’t want to take responsibility for the consequences of his freedom; that’s why he is questioning it.

Really? I thought it was more of him not wanting to serve humanity and that humanity’s free will was like a particularly revolting wart in his eyes.

 

[CrossofChrist]

If God is infinitely greater than we are, then the answer given by various saints throughout the years which initially might seem like a cop out is the truly satisfactory answer–because God can bring a greater good from that evil. Even if we can’t yet fully see how, we will see fully how in heaven.

Also, true freedom consists in being perfectly united with God. So why didn’t God create a universe without the possibility of sin instead of a good universe with the potential to have evil because it is in a state of journeying? For his glory, and also our good since a greater good can be brought from evil.

See CCC 410-412 and 309-314.

 

[blase6]

If God is infinitely greater than we are, then the answer given by various saints throughout the years which initially might seem like a cop out is the truly satisfactory answer–because God can bring a greater good from that evil. Even if we can’t yet fully see how, we will see fully how in heaven.

Also, true freedom consists in being perfectly united with God. So why didn’t God create a universe without the possibility of sin instead of a good universe with the potential to have evil because it is in a state of journeying? For his glory, and also our good since a greater good can be brought from evil.

See CCC 410-412 and 309-314.

The problem is that the world is not “journeying” to be perfect. Since some people are suffering forever in hell, then the world can never be perfect.

 

[ChainBreaker]

Really? I thought it was more of him not wanting to serve humanity and that humanity’s free will was like a particularly revolting wart in his eyes.

Yes, he wanted to be served and worshipped. He does not want to serve humanity.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Freedom exists for the purpose of love. Without freedom these is no love. As Jesus demonstrated on the cross the is no suffering greater that true love.

As David V has mentioned here, without freedom there is no love. It needs to be freely offered and freely received.

 

[Bahman]

I just don’t get it.

Our world is filled with suffering, and some people are or will be suffering eternally in Hell. And this is all because God allows it because he values personal freedom.

It is the usual argument in the problem of evil: God allows suffering but does not will it. Well, there is not a significant difference. For whatever reason, God would rather have the multitudes of suffering brought on by personal freedom, than for perfect peace without freedom.

What is it about freedom that Someone who we believe is all good, would allow evil simply for freedom’s sake?

So you want to experience without ability to act!?

 

[tonyrey]

I just don’t get it.

Our world is filled with suffering, and some people are or will be suffering eternally in Hell. And this is all because God allows it because he values personal freedom.

It is the usual argument in the problem of evil: God allows suffering but does not will it. Well, there is not a significant difference. For whatever reason, God would rather have the multitudes of suffering brought on by personal freedom, than for perfect peace without freedom.

What is it about freedom that Someone who we believe is all good, would allow evil simply for freedom’s sake?

If you weren’t free you wouldn’t be able to criticise God. Even the famous atheist Jean Paul Sartre realised that without freedom we cannot be persons. To reject freedom is to disregard everything we hold most precious: our creativity, individuality, human dignity, power of reason, moral responsibility and capacity for unselfish love. To have “perfect peace without freedom” amounts to a living death because we would be reduced to helpless machines aware of our impotence and inability to change anything that matters. Why do we object to being brainwashed? Why have so many people died fighting for freedom? Why did Jesus allow Himself to be crucified rather than remain silent and not speak the truth? Because mental slavery is far worse than being in prison or put to death. We should thank God no one can chain our minds and compel us to live like zombies:

“It is indisputable that the being whose capacities of enjoyment are low, has the greatest chance of having them fully satisfied; and a highly endowed being will always feel that any happiness which he can look for, as the world is constituted, is imperfect. But he can learn to bear its imperfections, if they are at all bearable; and they will not make him envy the being who is indeed unconscious of the imperfections, but only because he feels not at all the good which those imperfections qualify.

It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, is of a different opinion, it is only because they only know their own side of the question.”

John Stuart Mill, * Utilitarianism *

 

[tonyrey]

The problem is that the world is not “journeying” to be perfect. Since some people are suffering forever in hell, then the world can never be perfect.

The world is not our final destination. There is also plenty of evidence that the lust for power can overcome all other considerations. Those who suffer do so because they prefer to be absolutely independent like gods and exist for themselves rather than others. If hell had no compensations no one would reject heaven!

 

[tonyrey]

So you want to experience without ability to act!?

!

 

[tonyrey]

No. I am just worried because the possibility of rejecting God and suffering for it is always available, even if I don’t want it. It is just that freedom is so random, so I don’t really know what I will choose to do.

Freedom is not random at all. It is the expression of our capacity for love. If we follow the example of Jesus we cannot possibly reject God:

“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

John 16:33

 

[CrossofChrist]

The problem is that the world is not “journeying” to be perfect. Since some people are suffering forever in hell, then the world can never be perfect.

Again, God can bring a greater good out of any evil. God is infinitely greater than we are or can imagine.

 

[blase6]

The world is not our final destination. There is also plenty of evidence that the lust for power can overcome all other considerations. Those who suffer do so because they prefer to be absolutely independent like gods and exist for themselves rather than others. If hell had no compensations no one would reject heaven!

It is still eternal imperfection, which contradicts the idea that the world is moving towards perfection.

 

[blase6]

Freedom is not random at all. It is the expression of our capacity for love. If we follow the example of Jesus we cannot possibly reject God:

John 16:33

But whether we follow or do not follow God, there really is no way to tell. I can only hope that I will get the right choices made to be happy.

Freedom is like randomness, except that it is your fault. Wonderful.

 

[blase6]

So you want to experience without ability to act!?

It is difficult to think that I “act” ultimately, anyway.