Why is personal freedom worth more than perfect peace to God?

[tonyrey]

It is still eternal imperfection, which contradicts the idea that the world is moving towards perfection.

It is eternal perfection because everyone obtains what they truly desire - and what they truly deserve… What more could one ask? … :clapping:

 

[tonyrey]

It is difficult to think that I “act” ultimately, anyway.

If you don’t think “ultimately” we can safely ignore your posts! Like a slave you are simply writing what you are compelled to write without being able to use your own judgment.

 

[tonyrey]

But whether we follow or do not follow God, there really is no way to tell. I can only hope that I will get the right choices made to be happy.

We are not expected to be infallible but impeccable! In other words to do the best we can.

Freedom is like randomness, except that it is your fault. Wonderful.

Freedom is not like randomness because it based on insight rather than ignorance. That is truly wonderful…

 

[blase6]

It is eternal perfection because everyone obtains what they truly desire - and what they truly deserve… What more could one ask? … :clapping:

Your being does not desire hell. It desires God because it is ordered towards God. The will is secondary, and if God values the desire of the will over the being, then a person in hell is eternally torn within themselves.

There is no eternal perfection.

 

[blase6]

Freedom is not like randomness because it based on insight rather than ignorance. That is truly wonderful…

It doesn’t matter if I know that I am doing something or not; I don’t really know what compels me to desire one thing over another. It feels like it is still an external force that moves me.

 

[tonyrey]

It is eternal perfection because everyone

The will is not secondary because it expresses our overwhelming decision. Those who choose to love themselves more than God know precisely what they are doing and they cannot be compelled to change their mind. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose of giving us free will. God does not do things by halves! It is a question of all or nothing. The damned are not torn at all because the initial desire for God is replaced by the final desire for independence.

There is no eternal perfection.

Repetition weakens an argument rather than strengthens it because it adds nothing of value. Why repeat if you have already produced convincing reasons?

 

[tonyrey]

Freedom is not like randomness because it based on insight rather than ignorance. That is truly wonderful…

We can’t expect to know everything! What matters is that you know what your decision is and you can give reasons for it. At the very least you think it will make you or some else happy and/or it is good rather than evil.

It feels like it is still an external force that moves me.

Feelings are notoriously deceptive. We can fool ourselves and others as well.

 

[raulpnt]

If you weren’t free you wouldn’t be able to criticise God. Even the famous atheist Jean Paul Sartre realised that without freedom we cannot be persons. To reject freedom is to disregard everything we hold most precious: our creativity, individuality, human dignity, power of reason, moral responsibility and capacity for unselfish love. To have “perfect peace without freedom” amounts to a living death because we would be reduced to helpless machines aware of our impotence and inability to change anything that matters. Why do we object to being brainwashed? Why have so many people died fighting for freedom? Why did Jesus allow Himself to be crucified rather than remain silent and not speak the truth? Because mental slavery is far worse than being in prison or put to death. We should thank God no one can chain our minds and compel us to live like zombies:

 [John Stuart Mill](http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/57651.John_Stuart_Mill),     *       [Utilitarianism](http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1086777)*

Your quote by Mill is highly relevant and serves to silence the objections posed by the question above. Better to be a rational being unsatisfied than to be a pig who is satisfied but is incapable of exercising the use of reason at all.

 

[blase6]

The will is not secondary because it expresses our overwhelming decision. Those who choose to love themselves more than God know precisely what they are doing and they cannot be compelled to change their mind. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose of giving us free will. God does not do things by halves! It is a question of all or nothing. The damned are not torn at all because the initial desire for God is replaced by the final desire for independence.

The main suffering of hell is the frustration of being torn between one’s being ordered towards the desire of God, with the separation of God. If a person really did not have any part of them that wanted God, they would not suffer this pain.

 

[blase6]

Your quote by Mill is highly relevant and serves to silence the objections posed by the question above. Better to be a rational being unsatisfied than to be a pig who is satisfied but is incapable of exercising the use of reason at all.

Better to be stupid and perfectly satisfied, than to be intelligent and entirely unsatisfied, without even the hope of satisfaction…

 

[Neoplatonist]

Yes, he wanted to be served and worshipped. He does not want to serve humanity.

Isn’t that the same thing God wants? If you say, “No, he wants to serve humanity,” then I would ask: “Serve us to help us do what?”

To that the answer is: “Well, to help us come to worship him and sacrifice every ounce of our will in favor of his.”

 

[raulpnt]

Better to be stupid and perfectly satisfied, than to be intelligent and entirely unsatisfied, without even the hope of satisfaction…

This is the classic stance of misology. It seems you have much self-reflection ahead of you in order to be better equipped to recognize the various flaws which congests this form of reasoning. In essence, you are spiting in the face of reason, which is God’s gift to humanity, and is exactly what sets us apart from all other animals.

It is true that reason is not competent to guide the will with certainty in regard to its objects and the satisfaction of all our wants. To some extent, reason may even multiply these wants. Indeed, those who are led purely by instinct seem, at first glance, to be much more sufficiently equipped to satisfy them with greater certainty.

However, we must extend our reasoning further to see exactly why this mode of thought can be so catastrophic and incredibly misleading.

Let us suppose that the purpose of life is happiness.

If the purpose of life is happiness, instinct would be the most effective organ in serving it.

Now, if this situation comes to pass, reason would receive a subsidiary role only (if any at all) - to assist us in appreciating the given constitution of nature and expressing our gratitude to the “beneficient cause” (God) for an instinctively regulated life. Reason itself would be barred from designing the “plan of happiness” and will be denied practical influence on its realization.

However, reason does influence our practical decisions.

Those who follow reason fall short of true satisfaction for their “needs.” Instead of providing immediate gratification of our wants, reason demands that we postpone it or even suspend it if it could not be regarded as morally acceptable.

The more reason controls action, the less satisfaction ensues (we get disappointed and even disillusioned).

The fact that we do not rave about the advantages of reason for happiness is not a sign of ingratitude toward God or Nature. Nor does it manifest the moroseness of our temperament. Just candidness and sincerity.

If reason still operates in life, its purpose could not possibly be happiness. It must have a different, far nobler end (a higher purpose) than happiness.

This end is to be known as joy.

Joy is only acquired through the use of reason, through prayer, through contemplation of the divine, and through adherence to God’s instructions. The mystery of joy is an incredible one in itself, and is worth an immense amount of contemplation in order to begin to appreciate.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

 

[tonyrey]

The main suffering of hell is the frustration of being torn between one’s being ordered towards the desire of God, with the separation of God. If a person really did not have any part of them that wanted God, they would not suffer this pain.

You are presuming without any evidence to know the precise feelings of those who reject God. There is plenty of evidence in this world that the lust for power can become such an obsession that people will sacrifice everything and everyone to get what they want, no matter how much they suffer in the process of fulfilling their greatest ambition. You underestimate the horrific nature of evil which led to the slaughter of eleven million men, women and children in the Holocaust. The suffering of the damned is not because a part of them wants God but because **they want to be God, **to be supreme and have absolute power over others. They succeed in getting absolute power over themselves and find themselves isolated and shunned by everyone else. No one wants to exist with an egoist…

 

[tonyrey]

Better to be stupid and perfectly satisfied, than to be intelligent and entirely unsatisfied, without even the hope of satisfaction…

The damned cannot be entirely unsatisfied; otherwise they wouldn’t choose hell. It isn’t a trap into which people fall. It’s a kingdom ruled by those who love themselves more than God or anyone else. They get exactly what they want but it’s never good enough for them. The more they have the more they want but they can never have everything. That’s where the frustration comes in…

 

[blase6]

You are presuming without any evidence to know the precise feelings of those who reject God. There is plenty of evidence in this world that the lust for power can become such an obsession that people will sacrifice everything and everyone to get what they want, no matter how much they suffer in the process of fulfilling their greatest ambition. You underestimate the horrific nature of evil which led to the slaughter of eleven million men, women and children in the Holocaust. The suffering of the damned is not because a part of them wants God but because **they want to be God, **to be supreme and have absolute power over others. They succeed in getting absolute power over themselves and find themselves isolated and shunned by everyone else. No one wants to exist with an egoist…

So you think that the persons in hell have no longing whatsoever for God? In that case, there would be no suffering due to a loss of God.

 

[blase6]

The damned cannot be entirely unsatisfied; otherwise they wouldn’t choose hell. It isn’t a trap into which people fall. It’s a kingdom ruled by those who love themselves more than God or anyone else. They get exactly what they want but it’s never good enough for them. The more they have the more they want but they can never have everything. That’s where the frustration comes in…

So then it sounds like eternal dissatisfaction. Your statements are inconsistent here.

 

[blase6]

This is the classic stance of misology. It seems you have much self-reflection ahead of you in order to be better equipped to recognize the various flaws which congests this form of reasoning. In essence, you are spiting in the face of reason, which is God’s gift to humanity, and is exactly what sets us apart from all other animals.

It is true that reason is not competent to guide the will with certainty in regard to its objects and the satisfaction of all our wants. To some extent, reason may even multiply these wants. Indeed, those who are led purely by instinct seem, at first glance, to be much more sufficiently equipped to satisfy them with greater certainty.

However, we must extend our reasoning further to see exactly why this mode of thought can be so catastrophic and incredibly misleading.

Let us suppose that the purpose of life is happiness.

If the purpose of life is happiness, instinct would be the most effective organ in serving it.

Now, if this situation comes to pass, reason would receive a subsidiary role only (if any at all) - to assist us in appreciating the given constitution of nature and expressing our gratitude to the “beneficient cause” (God) for an instinctively regulated life. Reason itself would be barred from designing the “plan of happiness” and will be denied practical influence on its realization.

However, reason does influence our practical decisions.

Those who follow reason fall short of true satisfaction for their “needs.” Instead of providing immediate gratification of our wants, reason demands that we postpone it or even suspend it if it could not be regarded as morally acceptable.

The more reason controls action, the less satisfaction ensues (we get disappointed and even disillusioned).

The fact that we do not rave about the advantages of reason for happiness is not a sign of ingratitude toward God or Nature. Nor does it manifest the moroseness of our temperament. Just candidness and sincerity.

If reason still operates in life, its purpose could not possibly be happiness. It must have a different, far nobler end (a higher purpose) than happiness.

This end is to be known as joy.

Joy is only acquired through the use of reason, through prayer, through contemplation of the divine, and through adherence to God’s instructions. The mystery of joy is an incredible one in itself, and is worth an immense amount of contemplation in order to begin to appreciate.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

It is torture to desire God and heaven, and at the same time, be unsure if that desire will every be recognized. Even if I am in the state of grace right now, I don’t know if I will be when I die. It is an uncertainty developed from reasoning about the world. So I am trapped in the torment of uncertainty.

 

[davidv]

So you think that the persons in hell have no longing whatsoever for God? In that case, there would be no suffering due to a loss of God.

If they any longing for God, why are they rejecting Him?

 

[blase6]

If they any longing for God, why are they rejecting Him?

Because their will is in conflict with the urges of their being.

 

[davidv]

Because their will is in conflict with the urges of their being.

Then they cannot be longing for God. If they were longing for God they would accept His grace to align their will with God’s.