Why is personal freedom worth more than perfect peace to God?

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blase6 said:
I just don’t get it.

Our world is filled with suffering, and some people are or will be suffering eternally in Hell. And this is all because God allows it because he values personal freedom.

It is the usual argument in the problem of evil: God allows suffering but does not will it. Well, there is not a significant difference. For whatever reason, God would rather have the multitudes of suffering brought on by personal freedom, than for perfect peace without freedom.

What is it about freedom that Someone who we believe is all good, would allow evil simply for freedom’s sake?
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That is a good question…many people may have these very same thoughts.

Freedom is a necessary part of our everyday life. When a little boy, mom tells us to do something, and we must make a choice. Going to the grocery store, aisle after aisle of breakfest food…we must make a choice. $10 laying on someone else’s desk, we must make a choice. Do we or don’t we take an umbrella this morning? What time should I have supper. What should I say to a particular question? Our lives are all about choices…it is a necessary part of our very selves. So too is it in the moral order, choices are necessary.

I’ve noticed that when I chose to become more self centered, my happiness inside dwindles. When I begin to think of myself more and less of God and others, I experience loneliness and emptiness. That is just a fact with me. I know that for sure.

It is when I open myself to others and take less time to think of myself that joy, peace, goodness, and happiness appear. And what this is according to my own findings is due to my self centerdness which is nothing more than what I would call sin, making a bad choice.

I truely believe this is what happens to people who find themselves in the wrong place after death. An unhappy place with noone there but themselves. And I’m not saying this in criticism of them, but rather it is just a result of what they have become. And what Jesus said it so true to me, that unless the seed die, it won’t grow into true love.

I do believe it pains God to see this happen to anyone. But what they are is what they are, and so they are in the next world what they were in this…unhappy when the toys of this world are unavailable.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
blase6 said:
So you think that the persons in hell have no longing whatsoever for God? In that case, there would be no suffering due to a loss of God.
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They love themselves so much there is no room for anyone else. Their suffering is caused not by the loss of God but by frustration at not being God! Their dominant ambition is absolute power…
 
tonyrey said:
They love themselves so much there is no room for anyone else. Their suffering is caused not by the loss of God but by frustration at not being God! Their dominant ambition is absolute power…
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No matter how much one desires to be God, it will never change the fact that they were meant for and deeply long for communion with God. Even if they willfully hate God and refuse to be with him.
 
blase6 said:
No matter how much one desires to be God, it will never change the fact that they were meant for and deeply long for communion with God. Even if they willfully hate God and refuse to be with him.
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It is impossible to hate God and at the same time deeply long for communion with Him.You underestimate the reality of evil.
 
tonyrey said:
It is impossible to hate God and at the same time deeply long for communion with Him.You underestimate the reality of evil.
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No one is basically evil. Even if their will is evil, their basic being longs for God because it was made to. And that is why hell is misery.
 
blase6 said:
No one is basically evil. Even if their will is evil, their basic being longs for God because it was made to. And that is why hell is misery.
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If we are genuinely free we are the ones who determine what we long for. We are not puppets but persons who choose what to believe, how to live and who to love. No one is compelled to love God because He has given us the power to reject Him, defy His will and worship ourselves. The horrific amount of evil in the world is irrefutable evidence that** there is no longer any longing for God** in the minds and hearts of those who deliberately and cold-bloodedly torture, rape, maim and kill innocent men, women and children. Otherwise they wouldn’t be capable of such atrocities. Even in this life there are people who reject, mutilate and murder their own parents, demonstrating how diabolical they can be…
 
tonyrey said:
If we are genuinely free we are the ones who determine what we long for. We are not puppets but persons who choose what to believe, how to live and who to love. No one is compelled to love God because He has given us the power to reject Him, defy His will and worship ourselves. The horrific amount of evil in the world is irrefutable evidence that** there is no longer any longing for God** in the minds and hearts of those who deliberately and cold-bloodedly torture, rape, maim and kill innocent men, women and children. Otherwise they wouldn’t be capable of such atrocities.
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Feeling is another aspect of mind hence we cannot genuinely love someone.
 
tonyrey said:
If we are genuinely free we are the ones who determine what we long for. We are not puppets but persons who choose what to believe, how to live and who to love. No one is compelled to love God because He has given us the power to reject Him, defy His will and worship ourselves. The horrific amount of evil in the world is irrefutable evidence that** there is no longer any longing for God** in the minds and hearts of those who deliberately and cold-bloodedly torture, rape, maim and kill innocent men, women and children. Otherwise they wouldn’t be capable of such atrocities. Even in this life there are people who reject, mutilate and murder their own parents, demonstrating how diabolical they can be…
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Everyone has a deep longing for God. Just because they can ignore it and act against it does not mean that the longing will leave them. If the people in hell really had no longing to be with God they would not be suffering due to the loss of him.
 
blase6 said:
Everyone has a deep longing for God. Just because they can ignore it and act against it does not mean that the longing will leave them. If the people in hell really had no longing to be with God they would not be suffering due to the loss of him.
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What you said makes sense but it is quite contrary. How they could be suffering from loss of him if they have already rejected him?
 
Bahman said:
What you said makes sense but it is quite contrary. How they could be suffering from loss of him if they have already rejected him?
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If you were in the hospital suffering pain, but you were a fool and rejected the painkiller for whatever reason, you would suffer for it.

This is not a great analogy, but my point is that there is a part of one’s being which is objectively good, which longs for complete communion with God. No committed evil action or evil will can change that deep longing.
 
blase6 said:
If you were in the hospital suffering pain, but you were a fool and rejected the painkiller for whatever reason, you would suffer for it.

This is not a great analogy, but my point is that there is a part of one’s being which is objectively good, which longs for complete communion with God. No committed evil action or evil will can change that deep longing.
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Assuming that they are fool does not cut. They must have a reason for rejecting God’s Love.
 
Bahman said:
Assuming that they are fool does not cut. They must have a reason for rejecting God’s Love.
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Those who reject God’s love are fools because they reject something that will satisfy them forever, and seek their fulfillment within themselves, which can never be realized. So they pay for their foolish decision with eternal dissatisfaction.
 
blase6 said:
Those who reject God’s love are fools because they reject something that will satisfy them forever, and seek their fulfillment within themselves, which can never be realized. So they pay for their foolish decision with eternal dissatisfaction.
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I don’t call that foolishness but sanity. We don’t put people with sanity in prison but hospital. Why God do otherwise?
 
Bahman said:
I don’t call that foolishness but sanity. We don’t put people with sanity in prison but hospital. Why God do otherwise?
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Your response makes no sense. I don’t know why a futile pursuit of satisfaction within yourself, which cannot be found, is “sane”.
 
blase6 said:
Your response makes no sense. I don’t know why a futile pursuit of satisfaction within yourself, which cannot be found, is “sane”.
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Any rational person chooses heaven over hell, pleasure over pain, … unless s/he is in state of sanity. Why we should mistreat people with sanity?
 
Bahman said:
Any rational person chooses heaven over hell, pleasure over pain, … unless s/he is in state of sanity. Why we should mistreat people with sanity?
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Are you sure you know what the word “sane” means? I think you are confusing it with “insane”.
 
Bahman said:
Oh yes. You are right. I missed an “in”. I meant insanity.
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Moral evil is just like a “sickness” of the will. But God will not heal the will by his own decision, and forces the sick person to decide themselves. It is a terrible thought to think that I exist in this kind of world! It is enough to drive you insane.
 
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