Why is personal freedom worth more than perfect peace to God?

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davidv said:
Then they cannot be longing for God. If they were longing for God they would accept His grace to align their will with God’s.
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No, because many people are foolish and incorrectly decide that some object opposed to God’s will is a better choice.
 
davidv said:
How can this be described as longing?
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Human beings are made for communion with God, right? So that deep internal longing for God will be with them, no matter how much it is ignored in this life, and will carry over into the next life even if they entirely reject God. That is the main suffering in hell which is the eternal loss of one’s authentic object of desire.
 
blase6 said:
Human beings are made for communion with God, right? So that deep internal longing for God will be with them, no matter how much it is ignored in this life, and will carry over into the next life even if they entirely reject God. That is the main suffering in hell which is the eternal loss of one’s authentic object of desire.
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OK. In this context I can agree. So, what does this have to do with freedom of the will?

To ignore this deep longing and act contrary to God’s will requires a free choice. If not they would have to give in to the longing.
 
davidv said:
OK. In this context I can agree. So, what does this have to do with freedom of the will?

To ignore this deep longing and act contrary to God’s will requires a free choice. If not they would have to give in to the longing.
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You were claiming that those in hell are satisfied with their decision, which contradicts my point.
 
blase6 said:
It is torture to desire God and heaven, and at the same time, be unsure if that desire will every be recognized. Even if I am in the state of grace right now, I don’t know if I will be when I die. It is an uncertainty developed from reasoning about the world. So I am trapped in the torment of uncertainty.
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Your comments do not seem to address what I have written at all. I will assume that your state of mind has prohibited you from acquiring a meticulous understanding of the flaws in your reasoning which I have briefly attempted to shed light on.

I should note that I very much sympathize with you and have taken the time to post here primarily because I, myself, at one point entertained these same thoughts when contemplating the mystery of God. It is not until years after that I was able to understand the true meaning inherent in the answer. I will continuously keep you in my prayers. This way of thinking is treacherous and could lead to a spiritual, emotional, and mental demise which could threaten the health of various areas of your personal life, which is vastly undesirable.

Peace and love my friend.
 
raulpnt said:
Your comments do not seem to address what I have written at all. I will assume that your state of mind has prohibited you from acquiring a meticulous understanding of the flaws in your reasoning which I have briefly attempted to shed light on.

I should note that I very much sympathize with you and have taken the time to post here primarily because I, myself, at one point entertained these same thoughts when contemplating the mystery of God. It is not until years after that I was able to understand the true meaning inherent in the answer. I will continuously keep you in my prayers. This way of thinking is treacherous and could lead to a spiritual, emotional, and mental demise which could threaten the health of various areas of your personal life, which is vastly undesirable.

Peace and love my friend.
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I have read through your earlier post and have some thoughts on it.

I disagree with the notion that reason is secondary to instinct. As primarily spiritual beings our healthy nature is to have our reason dominate our instinct, restraining instinct where it would lead to sin and encouraging it in temperance and authentically good objects of desire.

Happiness in the philosophical sense is more than a bodily feeling. It derives from the satisfaction of one’s wants and desires, which has a rational dimension as well as an animal dimension. Since our natures are imperfect we must frustrate our animal desires for our current life, whenever they would lead to sin. But this is “unnatural” for us, even if it is better than abandoning our reasoning to animal pleasure.

The object of reasoning is in fact happiness. In our perfect life we will be free to indulge our animal desires because they will be perfected to avoid sinful desires, and thus will never conflict with our moral judgement. But beyond animal pleasure, there is a sort of intellectual pleasure which derives from knowing the truth, especially truth about God.
 
davidv said:
I don’t think I made that statement. Can point me to where I did?
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“If they any longing for God, why are they rejecting Him?” which implies that you thought they did not long for God.
 
blase6 said:
“If they any longing for God, why are they rejecting Him?” which implies that you thought they did not long for God.
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An implication that you projected onto my words that is not consistent with my comment.
 
davidv said:
An implication that you projected onto my words that is not consistent with my comment.
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The wording of your question does in fact imply that you believed those in hell do not long for God, even if you do not really believe that.
 
blase6 said:
You were claiming that those in hell are satisfied with their decision, which contradicts my point.
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Lets step back and look at the reasoning of your thinking. Lets start with example “par-excellence” Lucifer and the rest, are you saying they are not satisfied with their choice and suffer because in reality they desire God.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Lets step back and look at the reasoning of your thinking. Lets start with example “par-excellence” Lucifer and the rest, are you saying they are not satisfied with their choice and suffer because in reality they desire God.
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I am saying that the suffering in hell is because one’s will conflicts with one’s real longing for God.
 
blase6 said:
I am saying that the suffering in hell is because one’s will conflicts with one’s real longing for God.
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Repeating yourself is a sign of a lacking position [nothing new was added]. You supplied nothing but a repeated statement. Its your theory, prove it…
Lets step back and look at the reasoning of your thinking. Lets start with example “par-excellence” Lucifer and the rest, are you saying they are not satisfied with their choice and suffer because in reality they desire God.
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🤷
 
Lucifer
You’re right in characterizing Lucifer’s rebellion as an insane act. Don’t forget that, although Lucifer had a superabundance of spiritual gifts, he was also endowed, as we are, with the gift of free will. God left him free to choose good over evil, and, as we know, he chose evil.
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Consider Adam and Eve. Before the Fall they possessed immortality, control over their passions and appetites, the complete integrity of their wills, as well as a human intelligence far superior to that which we have now. Yet, like Lucifer, they chose to commit a mortal sin. This means God allowed them to exercise their free will.
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As for the particular sin the bad angels committed, many theologians believe that in their pre-fallen state the angels were given a foreknowledge of humans (who would be inferior to them), as well as a foreknowledge that God himself (the second Person of the Trinity) would be incarnated as a man and redeem the universe through his death on the cross.
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This revelation angered Lucifer because it meant he and the other angels would have to worship God incarnate. Lucifer and the other angels who fell were so proud of being superior to men that their overweening arrogance wouldn’t allow them to worship Jesus Christ the God-Man. This refusal–this non serviam–stemmed from pride. That, anyway, is the theologian’s theory.Catholic Answers
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Lucifer had a superabundance of spiritual gifts, he was also endowed, as we are, with the gift of free will.
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Lucifer and the other angels who fell were so proud of being superior to men that their overweening arrogance wouldn’t allow them to worship Jesus Christ the God-Man. This refusal–this non serviam–stemmed from pride. That, anyway, is the theologian’s theory
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So the theory is after being confronted and veils of ignorance are lifted, Lucifer and all these others will really be eternally suffering because they realize they are not now in communion with God which they refused to accept anyway?

So Lucifer is still in ignorance or no? If he’s not in ignorance then why does he temp you to do what he wished he hadn’t?

Further if he isn’t ignorant, then I think we could conclude he’s not worshipping God?

Yea, I don’t know.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Lucifer

So the theory is after being confronted and veils of ignorance are lifted, Lucifer and all these others will really be eternally suffering because they realize they are not now in communion with God which they refused to accept anyway?

So Lucifer is still in ignorance or no? If he’s not in ignorance then why does he temp you to do what he wished he hadn’t?

Further if he isn’t ignorant, then I think we could conclude he’s not worshipping God?

Yea, I don’t know.
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What you posted is just a theory by theologians. It is not Catholic doctrine that we understand the reason why Satan rejected God. However, we do know that God created the angels for communion with him. So if they have free will, they have the option of contradicting their natural desire for God. So the suffering in hell is because they are meant to be with God, but are not.
 
blase6 said:
So the suffering in hell is because they are meant to be with God, but are not.
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They rejected and were rejected thats affirmed. The state of rejection is a fixed state at sentencing, its a mystery.
 
To have a just idea of the future life in general we must first see what theology teaches on the knowledge possessed by the soul separated from its body, the soul which no longer has the use of its senses, not even of imagination. Next, we study the state of the will, illumined by this new knowledge beyond the tomb.
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We have said above [174] that the soul begins to be fixed either in good or evil by the last voluntary act, meritorious or demeritorious, which it makes at the very moment when it separates from the body. We have said further, that it completes this fixation by the act of the will which it produces at that precise instant where the state of separation begins. Then, since everyone judges according to his inclination, the humble soul continues to judge and will confortably to humility during its state of separation, whereas the proud man who has died in final impenitence continues to judge and to will according to his pride.
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Fr Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. (1877 - 1964) taught at the Angelicum in Rome from 1909 to 1960, and served for many years as a consulter to the Holy Office and other Roman Congregations.
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GaryTaylor said:
They rejected and were rejected thats affirmed. The state of rejection is a fixed state at sentencing, its a mystery.
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It is not a mystery. The very state of rejection is a fixed state at sentencing and it is related to actions of an individual opposed to his/her belief, so called divine justice in personal level. To strive in wrong belief is duty of divine justice in God level.
 
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