Why is personal freedom worth more than perfect peace to God?

[John_Martin]

The problem is that I don’t really get to choose what I desire. I have the natural desire for God built in to me. So if I turn away and commit evil, then there is a flaw in my perception of goodness.

And sometimes I really don’t know why I act a certain way. Even if I am choosing God right now, I still might reject him later. So there is no guarantee.

That is not quite true.
You have a natural desire to know what is true, though you do not know it until you find it and reason that it is true. And a natural desire to unite to what is good, truly good, and you don’t actually know what it is until you find it an reason that it is good (desirable).

And you don’t actually have a natural desire for the one God because you cannot reason him, but only that there must be such a God at the most. And here too, it is only when he stands in front of you and say’s “here I am, follow me”, that you are faced with the dilemma of taking him at his word or telling him you have to know it is true first before you can follow him. He is asking you to give up your perception of goodness and listen to him only, what is pleasing to him (which he plainly tells you).

 

[blase6]

That is not quite true.
You have a natural desire to know what is true, though you do not know it until you find it and reason that it is true. And a natural desire to unite to what is good, truly good, and you don’t actually know what it is until you find it an reason that it is good (desirable).

And you don’t actually have a natural desire for the one God because you cannot reason him, but only that there must be such a God at the most. And here too, it is only when he stands in front of you and say’s “here I am, follow me”, that you are faced with the dilemma of taking him at his word or telling him you have to know it is true first before you can follow him. He is asking you to give up your perception of goodness and listen to him only, what is pleasing to him (which he plainly tells you).

You can desire something without reasoning what it is. I go to school because I want to land a career, but I don’t know what specific career I want. It doesn’t change the fact that I want a career. It is the same for God. All persons desire God necessarily.

Someone who would demand of you to throw away your deepest convictions about reality does not sound like a loving person. They sound like a con artist.

 

[Bahman]

Davidv is right, this is not free will. If this is what you conceive of for free will is no wonder you are having all these difficulties. Pray tell, how would I be free if all my actions are randomly determined? I would be just as unfree as if they were necessarily determined.

Free will flows directly from the rational intellect, in fact it is oftentimes referred to as the “rational appetite.” The intellect contemplates universal natures/truths, understands that they reflect particular goodness, and proposes them as objects of desire to the will. The only thing the will wills of necessity is universal goodness (i.e. God Himself, which is why the soul captivated by the Beatific Vision desires nothing else eternally), but since everything in our experience is a finite particular reflection of universal goodness, no thing necessitates our will. You seek things freely because your intellect has judged that they are good things to be sought, so your actions are determined by you because finite goodness does not necessitate your will. That is precisely what it means to be free. Whether you have judged rightly or not is another matter.

Free will directly flows from consciousness. Intellect/subconsciousness is the utility of consciousness.

 

[blase6]

Free will directly flows from consciousness. Intellect/subconsciousness is the utility of consciousness.

Repeated for the thousandth time, still an ineffectual statement.

 

[Bahman]

Repeated for the thousandth time, still an ineffectual statement.

I apparently cannot convince you since you are trying to get into nature of consciousness coming with the wrong idea which everything is random. You cannot digitize and study consciousness since it is primary, it is very you who decide and act.

 

[blase6]

I apparently cannot convince you since you are trying to get into nature of consciousness coming with the wrong idea which everything is random. You cannot digitize and study consciousness since it is primary, it is very you who decide and act.

I still think that animals are conscious machines without freedom. But you think it is a contradiction.

 

[Bahman]

I still think that animals are conscious machines without freedom. But you think it is a contradiction.

I don’t think it is possible to make conscious machine or consciousness. Unless you have an idea on how to make something which can experience and act, consciousness?

 

[blase6]

I don’t think it is possible to make conscious machine or consciousness. Unless you have an idea on how to make something which can experience and act, consciousness?

No human being created animals. At least not yet.

 

[tonyrey]

Even those who hate God and want nothing to do with you?

“fixed” gives the game away! It excludes personal freedom.

All evil is the result of malfunctioning in the sense that it is due to ignorance but it is culpable ignorance. Those who reject God know they are selfish and bound to suffer without God but they choose hell because they enjoy feeling absolutely free - although in reality they are slaves to themselves!

 

[balto]

You can desire something without reasoning what it is. I go to school because I want to land a career, but I don’t know what specific career I want. It doesn’t change the fact that I want a career. It is the same for God. All persons desire God necessarily.

I think we are equivocating on the word “desire.” You seem to be using “desire” as some kind of natural inclination, feeling, or temptation. No one denies that we have these inclinations and that oftentimes they are inclinations to do harmful or evil things. But when you decide to indulge in them, it is precisely because you have reasoned that it is good for you to indulge these inclinations rather than resist them for some other good. So your desire is completely free because you reasoned that the good offered by the indulgence of these inclinations is a higher good than abstaining from doing so, or pursuing some other course of action that you actively considered. Under this definition, desire is completely active and free. That’s why the Church teaches that temptations are not sinful in themselves, only disordered, but actively indulging in them is.

What John Martin said about people not having a natural desire for God is correct in a certain sense, and your assertion that everybody desires God is correct in a certain other sense. Yes, everybody seeks truth and goodness, i.e. God, as you claimed, because we inherently know that truth and goodness exist. But we don’t know God’s essence, the content of infinite truth and goodness, which is what John Martin was speaking about I presume. We think we have truth and goodness and that it is something we can seize or earn for ourselves. That kind of thinking and the behavior that flowed from it is what got us kicked out of Eden. Yes, we all want God’s essence but that is something that can only be had when God freely gives it and we freely accept it.

Someone who would demand of you to throw away your deepest convictions about reality does not sound like a loving person. They sound like a con artist.

God’s not asking you to throw away your deepest convictions but to throw away your pride. You are not the originator of truth or goodness; you accept these from without, from God Himself. Your deepest convictions are partly true and partly good, but the goodness is due to God’s essence and not your knowing assorted truths, and the errors are due from your faulty reasoning and sinful actions. That’s why repentance is so important in Christian theology. If you think you’ve found truth and goodness, that it is something that is yours to defend, then whether you are a Christian or not you are probably in trouble.

 

[sonictimm]

I’ve only read a few pages of this topic, but it seems to have spiraled off course. Correct me if I’m wrong, but:

The basic Question: Why does God allow freedom which leads to evil?

The short answer: Because he loves us.

I know that might sound dumb, but think about what love is. In real love, there is always a choice. If there is no choice, there is no love. It’s like saying “You may” vs. saying “you will.”
“You will” is what a guard says to a prisoner, i.e. “You will do hard labor” or “you will eat this bland food.”
“You may” is what people say out of love, i.e. “You may work here” or “You may eat some of this food.” See the difference? If God just told us “You will worship me” and forced us to obey, then we would worship him for the practicality/utility of it, but not out of love. Loving such a God would be like a schoolgirl loving the bullies that take her lunch money every day.

But God loves us, and desires us to love Him, so there must be a choice, or else it’s not really love.

 

[blase6]

I think we are equivocating on the word “desire.” You seem to be using “desire” as some kind of natural inclination, feeling, or temptation. No one denies that we have these inclinations and that oftentimes they are inclinations to do harmful or evil things. But when you decide to indulge in them, it is precisely because you have reasoned that it is good for you to indulge these inclinations rather than resist them for some other good. So your desire is completely free because you reasoned that the good offered by the indulgence of these inclinations is a higher good than abstaining from doing so, or pursuing some other course of action that you actively considered. Under this definition, desire is completely active and free. That’s why the Church teaches that temptations are not sinful in themselves, only disordered, but actively indulging in them is.

What John Martin said about people not having a natural desire for God is correct in a certain sense, and your assertion that everybody desires God is correct in a certain other sense. Yes, everybody seeks truth and goodness, i.e. God, as you claimed, because we inherently know that truth and goodness exist. But we don’t know God’s essence, the content of infinite truth and goodness, which is what John Martin was speaking about I presume. We think we have truth and goodness and that it is something we can seize or earn for ourselves. That kind of thinking and the behavior that flowed from it is what got us kicked out of Eden. Yes, we all want God’s essence but that is something that can only be had when God freely gives it and we freely accept it.

All persons desire God because they are ordered towards God as their final end. So I tend to see attempting to find goodness apart from God, not so much as a personal fault to be punished, but simply as a sad and unfortunate mistake out of a lack of wisdom. All evil acts are completely fruitless and pointless, and very stupid. I feel sorry for people who are so absorbed in their own imperfection that they do not make good choices.

God’s not asking you to throw away your deepest convictions but to throw away your pride. You are not the originator of truth or goodness; you accept these from without, from God Himself. Your deepest convictions are partly true and partly good, but the goodness is due to God’s essence and not your knowing assorted truths, and the errors are due from your faulty reasoning and sinful actions. That’s why repentance is so important in Christian theology. If you think you’ve found truth and goodness, that it is something that is yours to defend, then whether you are a Christian or not you are probably in trouble.

I have yet to see how my position results from “faulty reasoning”. I am indeed trying to preserve my sanity by avoiding the madness in the world of conflicting ideas for what is true. As long as my imperfect knowledge of truth gives me hope to be happy, then I don’t need anything else.

My own perception of the world is more “true” in my mind than what another person tells me. It is not pride, it is simply because I know myself and my experience of the world better than you do.

 

[blase6]

“fixed” gives the game away! It excludes personal freedom.

All evil is the result of malfunctioning in the sense that it is due to ignorance but it is culpable ignorance. Those who reject God know they are selfish and bound to suffer without God but they choose hell because they enjoy feeling absolutely free - although in reality they are slaves to themselves!

I don’t care to have freedom if I can just be perfectly happy. So I will try to follow the Church’s teaching on God.

You show the paradox of the madness known as freedom.

 

[davidv]

I don’t care to have freedom if I can just be perfectly happy.

The fact of the matter is that you cannot be perfectly happy without freedom. When you freely choose to love God and neighbor you will end up perfectly happy in heaven.

So I will try to follow the Church’s teaching on God.

You show the paradox of the madness known as freedom.

 

[blase6]

The fact of the matter is that you cannot be perfectly happy without freedom. When you freely choose to love God and neighbor you will end up perfectly happy in heaven.

I am willing to make that step as of now, but I wish I didn’t have to. I would give up freedom if there was the absolute guarantee I could be perfectly happy and satisfied forever.

 

[davidv]

I am willing to make that step as of now, but I wish I didn’t have to. I would give up freedom if there was the absolute guarantee I could be perfectly happy and satisfied forever.

You can give up your freedom. It is called sin. Unfortunately, this will guarantee the exact opposite of perfect happiness.

 

[blase6]

You can give up your freedom. It is called sin. Unfortunately, this will guarantee the exact opposite of perfect happiness.

You are going onto a different definition of “freedom”.

This is the problem with having two definitions of “freedom”.

 

[balto]

All persons desire God because they are ordered towards God as their final end. So I tend to see attempting to find goodness apart from God, not so much as a personal fault to be punished, but simply as a sad and unfortunate mistake out of a lack of wisdom. All evil acts are completely fruitless and pointless, and very stupid.

This was Plato’s view. But he didn’t take into account the fact that some ignorance is willed. Some people know that their knowledge is wrong but rest content in it willfully, or don’t care enough about it to seek a deeper understanding.

I have yet to see how my position results from “faulty reasoning”. I am indeed trying to preserve my sanity by avoiding the madness in the world of conflicting ideas for what is true. As long as my imperfect knowledge of truth gives me hope to be happy, then I don’t need anything else.

Well when I used the word “you” I intended it to mean the generic “you” and not “you” specifically. Impugning your motives would be rather uncharitable of me so I won’t comment on it except to say that I don’t see how your inability to understand certain things about reality is grounds for denying/doubting that all reality outside of yourself exists. In this thread you asked why personal freedom is more valuable than perfect peace to God. People have pointed out that your definition of freedom is not really free at all and have explained why that is. What is deficient with that view?

 

[blase6]

This was Plato’s view. But he didn’t take into account the fact that some ignorance is willed. Some people know that their knowledge is wrong but rest content in it willfully, or don’t care enough about it to seek a deeper understanding.

I understand this but it would be hard to tell how culpable a person would be for not caring about the truth.

I am struggling to avoid falling into the attitude of “I am never going to find the truth, so I will give up”. But seeing how limited my certain knowledge is, I may never find certain truth beyond myself.

Well when I used the word “you” I intended it to mean the generic “you” and not “you” specifically. Impugning your motives would be rather uncharitable of me so I won’t comment on it except to say that I don’t see how your inability to understand certain things about reality is grounds for denying/doubting that all reality outside of yourself exists. In this thread you asked why personal freedom is more valuable than perfect peace to God. People have pointed out that your definition of freedom is not really free at all and have explained why that is. What is deficient with that view?

I can only understand freedom as “personal randomness”. And since that is the most sense I can make of freedom, my mind gravitates towards that understanding. It is probably just a mystery I cannot understand. However I was hoping at least for my understanding to be cleared up so that I could accept it better.

The problem with accepting something as a mystery I cannot understand, in my mind means that I have no guarantee that it is really true. I may just be being tricked by a malicious entity beyond this world. Even things that I can understand carry no guarantee of truthfulness with them. So I am just stuck in uncertainty and I am apprehensive towards the world in consequence.

 

[John_Martin]

You can desire something without reasoning what it is. I go to school because I want to land a career, but I don’t know what specific career I want. It doesn’t change the fact that I want a career. It is the same for God. All persons desire God necessarily.

Someone who would demand of you to throw away your deepest convictions about reality does not sound like a loving person. They sound like a con artist.

The con artist said to the rich young man who went away sad, “You lack one thing, go, sell all you have (in which lie your deepest convictions) and give it to the poor, then come and follow me”.

The man went away sad because he believed the con artist. And in the course of this sorrow he wept at each of his deepest held treasures that he sold and parted with them. Then he looked at the coins as he gave them to the poor, all he had set his heart on being let go of. And he came back after this and followed the con artist. Some say he was the one who ran away naked in the Garden on the night of the betrayal of the con artist.